What’s behind inequality?

Lafayette · Jan 13, 2019

jet57 said:
What’s behind inequality?

Power.

Yes, which is employed to manipulate the political process such that Income Disparity - due to lax upper-income taxation - continues to be applied in the US.

That fact is inescapable. Until Americans have a "reawakening" to the evidence that they are being manipulated for the benefit of the super-rich. Which is the very same kind of "social condition" that sparked the Bolshevik Revolution a century ago in Russia.

Of course, if Americans want to allow the super-rich to get even richer and that a non-insignificant portion of their fellow Yanks live in miserable conditions below the Poverty Threshold, then that is their business.

But as a Yank observing the situation from abroad, in a country that has both a National Healthcare and National Post-secondary Education, the differences cannot be more glaring as regards outcomes. The French (and Europeans in general) are living longer lives than we Yanks in the US (by four years) because of their National Healthcare Systems.

If Americans wish to die younger, well, that's their decision ...

marke · Jan 13, 2019

Lafayette said:
Yes, which is employed to manipulate the political process such that Income Disparity - due to lax upper-income taxation - continues to be applied in the US.

That fact is inescapable. Until Americans have a "reawakening" to the evidence that they are being manipulated for the benefit of the super-rich. Which is the very same kind of "social condition" that sparked the Bolshevik Revolution a century ago in Russia.

Of course, if Americans want to allow the super-rich to get even richer and that a non-insignificant portion of their fellow Yanks live in miserable conditions below the Poverty Threshold, then that is their business.

But as a Yank observing the situation from abroad, in a country that has both a National Healthcare and National Post-secondary Education, the differences cannot be more glaring as regards outcomes. The French (and Europeans in general) are living longer lives than we Yanks in the US (by four years) because of their National Healthcare Systems.

If Americans wish to die younger, well, that's their decision ...

Hugo Chavez certainly accepted the communist mindset and put a stop to income inequality in Venezuela. Now everybody is dirt poor and warring neighbor against neighbor just trying to find scraps of sustenance upon which to live one day to the next.

Lafayette · Jan 13, 2019

marke said:
Hugo Chavez certainly accepted the communist mindset and put a stop to income inequality in Venezuela. Now everybody is dirt poor and warring neighbor against neighbor just trying to find scraps of sustenance upon which to live one day to the next.

You have REALLY picked out the wrong example.

What Chavez did in a nation that was being milked-'n-bilked by a rich upper-class is to have changed directions. Unfortunately, like most knot-heads on the left, he did not understand underlying trends that upset the apple-cart. Oil-prices shimmied then dropped drastically.

Before dying, however, he managed to position a bus-driver (and pathetic dolt) in position to take over the presidency. Maduro is a first-class nincompoop.

Pity the Venezuelans who deserve a democratically elected and decent leadership. A set of values not found easily in any country below the Mexican Border.

But neither does that mean that America - yet again - should open its doors to admit the tired-and-hungry. It cannot be the Uncle Sam to the rescue for nations that simply do no know how to elect and install competent governments.

They must learn how to do it themselves ...

phattonez · Jan 13, 2019

James972 said:
median wages are up last 2 quarters thanks to Trumps turnaround! What planet have you been on??

Great! They're up 2 quarters but down over 50 years! When does the party start?

phattonez · Jan 13, 2019

Lafayette said:
Median Income of the Poverty Threshold (2018) is for a family of four $25,100. What does that mean?

From here - Center for Poverty Research, UofCal, Davis:

Fourteen percent of the American population, estimated at a total of 326 million, means (do the maths) 60 million of our fellow citizens live their lives below the Poverty Threshold. (Whilst Donald Dork reduces upper-income taxation for his fellow millionaires who funded his campaign.)

Sixty million men, women and children! That's the population of the states of California and Florida ... !

Why is this directed at me? Do you think that I'm okay with this? Do you think I'm satisfied with Trump's (or any president for that matter) economic policies?

phattonez · Jan 13, 2019

marke said:
Hugo Chavez certainly accepted the communist mindset and put a stop to income inequality in Venezuela. Now everybody is dirt poor and warring neighbor against neighbor just trying to find scraps of sustenance upon which to live one day to the next.

Hugo Chavez didn't realize that a nation that's completely dependent on oil can be destroyed when the largest oil consumer puts an embargo on you. They pursued a stupid economic policy of not becoming more independent before deciding to stand up to the US.

There's not much that you can do when your country is run by morons.

Lafayette · Jan 13, 2019

phattonez said:
There's not much that you can do when your country is run by morons.

Americans are just beginning to understand the significance of that quote. That is, in terms of a sick narcissistic personality.

We (plural) have no idea whatsoever of how sick that guy in charge is.

Refresher reading: 8 Signs of Narcissistic Rage - excerpt:

Below are eight scenarios when narcissistic rage often occurs, with references from my books, How to Successfully Handle Narcissists, and A Practical Guide for Narcissists to Change Towards the Higher Self. Whether at home, at work, in social interactions, or in day-to-day activities, narcissistic rage may occur when:

1. The narcissist doesn’t get his or her way, even when it’s unreasonable.

2. The narcissist is criticized in some way, even when the critique is made diplomatically, reasonably, and constructively.

3. The narcissist isn’t treated as the center of attention, even when there are other priorities.

4. The narcissist is caught breaking rules, violating social norms, or disregarding boundaries.

“How dare you talk to me this way in front of my son!” —Angry customer being called out for blatantly cutting in line

5. The narcissist is asked to be accountable for his or her actions.

6. The narcissist suffers a blow to his or her idealized, egotistical self-image (such as when being told he will not be given “exception to the rule”, or be granted “special treatment”).

7. The narcissist is reminded of his or her charade, manipulation, exploitation, inadequacy, shame, or self-loathing.

8. The narcissist feels (fears) not in control of their relational or physical surroundings.

In each of the cases above, narcissistic rage is utilized as a manipulative tool on the outside, and a pain-avoidance device on the inside. Like a spoiled child who throws a tantrum when not catered to, the narcissist attempts to use their “rage” to coerce their targets (victims) to give in. At the same time, the intense “drama” distracts the narcissist from the inner pain and inadequacy of not constantly worshiped on a pedestal (narcissistic supply). The narcissist falls apart, psychologically and emotionally, at the prospect of not being “special," “unique," or “above others."

marke · Jan 13, 2019

Lafayette said:
You have REALLY picked out the wrong example.

What Chavez did in a nation that was being milked-'n-bilked by a rich upper-class is to have changed directions. Unfortunately, like most knot-heads on the left, he did not understand underlying trends that upset the apple-cart. Oil-prices shimmied then dropped drastically.

Before dying, however, he managed to position a bus-driver (and pathetic dolt) in position to take over the presidency. Maduro is a first-class nincompoop.

Pity the Venezuelans who deserve a democratically elected and decent leadership. A set of values not found easily in any country below the Mexican Border.

But neither does that mean that America - yet again - should open its doors to admit the tired-and-hungry. It cannot be the Uncle Sam to the rescue for nations that simply do no know how to elect and install competent governments.

They must learn how to do it themselves ...

Most communist nations tout communism as beneficial to the poor while the opposite is the truth. Putin is quite possibly the richest man in the world, and if he pretends to be for the poor he is lying, just as American democrats lie when they tout communism as a means to pass prosperity onto the poor.

marke · Jan 13, 2019

phattonez said:
Hugo Chavez didn't realize that a nation that's completely dependent on oil can be destroyed when the largest oil consumer puts an embargo on you. They pursued a stupid economic policy of not becoming more independent before deciding to stand up to the US.

There's not much that you can do when your country is run by morons.

Maybe Hugo's communist idealism might have succeeded if not for other countries being involved in business markets and in goods like oil?

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

ttwtt78640 said:
Your continuous harping on US upper income taxation rates fails to explain how raising income taxes on "the rich" would increase the pay of other (average?) workers. Income taxes on average (or lower) wage workers are not what is keeping their wages low. if you taxed the Walmart CEO more that would not cause pay raises for the other Walmart workers. In fact, if you paid the Walmart CEO nothing at all (taxed that rich person at 100%) and redistributed all of that "windfall" among Walmart's other workers then each Walmart worker could be paid $1/year more - whoopee!

The idea is actually to tax to the point "fruit is left on the tree". This fosters competition.

And here's the big secret:

Those who get whatever they want now will continue he to work for far less. More probably, as they'd need to make that much more each year as a result of higher taxation.

To continue their competition for status among the worlds most wealthy and powerful.

Hindbrain animal behavior is the primary driver of the world today.

The member of any species with the best access to resources is the most likely to reproduce. Behaviors that further that access are strongly neurochemically rewarded.

In social.species, this manifests as "status" in the group.

Full stop.

Feeding that drive for status is what drives our wealthy and power hungry.

All of the world's energy is fo used on this game to the exclusion of all others.

And historically they never stop until forced to.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

OrphanSlug said:
This is more or less old news, EPI has been looking to policy makers for years to change the balance of power between employers and employees. The conclusion of this article and dozens others saying governance should look for "opportunities are likely those that lead to more labor market balance in the power between employers and workers by increasing worker power—not trying to move the labor market toward a competitive ideal that is not attainable."

Our issue is the same, what policy are we talking about and how to safeguard the policy against international labor markets?

The reason I phrase the question that way specifically is international labor completion is the key reason why saw erosion of "worker's rights" as the article would put it. Said another way, the only place that unions could continue to flourish is in the public sector where it is a practical impossibility for competition outside those areas *and* the tax payer can be hijacked into funding labor rates based on negotiation having nothing to do with productivity per se and benefits packages that are becoming obsolete in the private sector.

This disparity between private sector unions and public sector unions has become amplified by how quickly we opened up markets for product manufacturing and service outsourcing with labor rates so far behind our own that private sector unions could not negotiate at a competitive rate nor could the isolate themselves from international competition. This was all done with the help of government as well looking at everything on how we opened up China to trade agreements like NAFTA.

Pick any sector of our economy that you want... raw materials output, automotive, major appliances, small retail goods, even things like prepared food and raw food products, service centers for healthcare and banking and others, IT outsourcing, you name it... international labor competition killed off the ability of unions to form again (even with government help) when corporations could look offshore.

At the end of the day there is no real *economic* reason for an uptick in private sector unions (again, even with government help) without adding in massive distortions that always without exception come with a consequence. EPI gave very little weight in their discussion on international labor rate competition and in some ways give the impression that the US labor market is in an isolated and closed condition which we know is not the case.

We are still stuck with the same question, how to deal with income inequality knowing labor rates for 5th, 4th, and even some 3rd income quintile earners has to compete internationally?

Keep wages flat while cost of living continue yes to go up and eventually WE will be mostly living the third world lifestyle.

Then American business owners can compete with their foreign adversaries to see who will be The One.

ttwtt78640 · Jan 13, 2019

What if...? said:
The idea is actually to tax to the point "fruit is left on the tree". This fosters competition.

And here's the big secret:

Those who get whatever they want now will continue he to work for far less. More probably, as they'd need to make that much more each year as a result of higher taxation.

To continue their competition for status among the worlds most wealthy and powerful.

Hindbrain animal behavior is the primary driver of the world today.

The member of any species with the best access to resources is the most likely to reproduce. Behaviors that further that access are strongly neurochemically rewarded.

In social.species, this manifests as "status" in the group.

Full stop.

Feeding that drive for status is what drives our wealthy and power hungry.

All of the world's energy is fo used on this game to the exclusion of all others.

And historically they never stop until forced to.

If I was able to understand that word salad then I might be able to make a better reply to it.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

PoS said:
Mankind. Read African Genesis, it will tell you all you need to know about human nature.

I have condensed all of our problems to a single source:

Maladaptation to the Adoption of the Sedentary Lifestyle.

Whe we were wandering around as a species various behaviors were kept in check by the facts that everybody knew each other, and we were all apex predators.

Ao when Grog said he needed a third of what everybody else hunted or gathered to sleep that night because his grandfather saw the valley first, they just told him to shut up.

When we settled down we by necessity ended up with the manager class and wage labor. It wasn't long before the managers decided that they deserved the lions share. Because they were super important. And their beautiful young wives liked fine clothing. And they need to impress other tribes' managers.

This pattern has been repeating since we settled down.

And never ends well.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

Bullseye said:
One of the interesting points in the EPI study was their point that employees power had declined, which is only partially true. While low/no skilled employee wages have stayed relatively constant wages for people with rare/in-demand skills, training and expertise has blossomed indicating significant employee power when the employee has something to bargain with.

Which are basically things a desperate poor person elsewhere or a machine can't do.

Yet.

Those wages will convert into profits the moment they do.

As they already did for many Americans.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

Mycroft said:
Slavery is completely at odds with the free market.

A free market depends upon the ability of two or more people to freely engage...or not engage...in agreeable transactions.

So no...in my world slavery would not be legal.

Except I am expected to cough up 30% of my gross effort for housing alone.

This is a fairly recent development. And only works where force makes it so.

So almost a third of our income is sucked up by an unnatural market. That only exists because of government.

But you want government out of profit making.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

Mycroft said:
I am not responsible for the living conditions of my fellow citizens...they are.

So don't drown if I'm the only one around, amirite?

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

ttwtt78640 said:
If I was able to understand that word salad then I might be able to make a better reply to it.

Shorter version is most of those in the 1% are just feeding a hunger for status/power.

Playing "monkey games" writ large across the planet.

They are addicted to doing so.

Their addiction could he exploited for everybody's benefit.

Or we could just let their activities wreck another civilization.

They have never stopped on their own in history.

ttwtt78640 · Jan 13, 2019

What if...? said:
Shorter version is most of those in the 1% are just feeding a hunger for status/power.

Playing "monkey games" writ large across the planet.

They are addicted to doing so.

Their addiction could he exploited for everybody's benefit.

Or we could just let their activities wreck another civilization.

They have never stopped on their own in history.

OK, but what is your suggested remedy?

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

ttwtt78640 said:
OK, but what is your suggested remedy?

I think simple acknowledgement of this truth would he adequate.

It would be MUCH harder to sell "belt tightening" to the masses so our status monkeys can have more status than other status monkeys.

Would cause a differentiation between actually economically beneficial activities and those that just feed primitive drives.

Everybody really needs to remember that the richest guy in the world poops. That that poop stinks. And that he almost certainly masturbates. He is nowhere near as different (better, by his definition) from you as he would like you to believe.

They're useful. But you gotta watch them. Or they'll run off with the silverware or enslave you by some mechanism.

Historically, its what they do.

How to go about changing our current relationship is a whole 'nother ballgame.

James972 · Jan 13, 2019

phattonez said:
Great! They're[wages] up 2 quarters but down over 50 years! When does the party start?

1) party started when Trump got elected and economy turned up sharply
2) real income is twice what it was 50 years ago when one family had tiny house one car one TV one Phone. Do you understand?

James972 · Jan 13, 2019

What if...? said:
I

Everybody really needs to remember that the richest guy in the world poops.

the top 1% change the world like Gates Bezos Jobs Brin Musk. They are Gods! Countries that don't nurture them can stagnate forever.

James972 · Jan 13, 2019

What if...? said:
Shorter version is most of those in the 1% are just feeding a hunger for status/power.
.

Gates Jobs Brin bezos etc change the world, cure cancer, they are responsible for evolution aand creating the lives of others on this planet.

James972 · Jan 13, 2019

What if...? said:
When we settled down we by necessity ended up with the manager class and wage labor..

we have many classes with many incomes based on how valuable you are to society at any point in your working life. Its the only fair system imaginable and sustainable.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

James972 said:
the top 1% change the world like Gates Bezos Jobs Brin Musk. They are Gods! Countries that don't nurture them can stagnate forever.

And ghengis khan and hitler and Napoleon.

That's the part the propaganda leaves out.

What if...? · Jan 13, 2019

James972 said:
we have many classes with many incomes based on how valuable you are to society at any point in your working life. Its the only fair system imaginable and sustainable.

Not to society. That is not the metric.

It is based on how profitable you are to the company in question.

Profitablility is the only metric considered by modern capitalism.

Full stop.

What’s behind inequality?

Lafayette

marke

Lafayette

phattonez

Catholic

phattonez

Catholic

phattonez

Catholic

Lafayette

marke

marke

What if...?

What if...?

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

What if...?

What if...?

What if...?

What if...?

What if...?

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

What if...?

James972

James972

James972

James972

What if...?

What if...?

What’s behind inequality?

Catholic

Catholic

Catholic

Sometimes wrong

Sometimes wrong

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