We're disappointing those who look up to us

[American]

Not so much by particular instances, but by the general policies, philosophies, political tone and overall approaches to the "American Way" recently. What I mean is that America has been a beacon for other peoples and countries as an example of what's right about living a life of liberty. People everywhere figure if there was a place in the world where you had a chance, and an opportunity to succeed or fail on your own, it is the United States of America. The direction our government is headed sends the wrong message to those people. People still want to come here because in many cases, no matter how bad it gets here from time to time, it's better than where they are. But I think some doubt has finally crept in.

The American people general stand for good, justice, charity, the rule of law and liberty. It's our foundation; we're not perfect and fail/stumble sometimes. But politics in American has begun to overshadow the underlying goodness that remains. Generally I don't care what other countries think, but for people elsewhere that are trying to change their circumstances under oppressive environments to live a freer and better life, I care about the lowering of their morale. I think there have always been people here that have worked to subvert our way of governing and introduce change to the foundation of our country, but it seems worse than ever. The enemy from within seems worse than ever, because they are part of us. We have citizens in our country that no longer believe in our flag, our creed, our Constitution, our history or our distinct culture. They believe in multiculturalism, socialism, atheism, low standards of achievement and double standards of applying the rules.

My parents immigrated here in the 1950's looking for work. The economy in Germany was horrible. They started at the bottom, with little to no money and couldn't speak English. But they had a very strong work ethic. They adapted and overcame. Over the years they accomplished what most would consider the American Dream of living a pretty good life, free and retiring in comfort. They are in their 80's now, still doing well. The United States of America has accomplished a remarkable amount in it's short life, and can boast one of the oldest forms of government in history. We're use to being at the top, and it's hard and lonely there. But it's tough when you have so many among us that have given up on what got us here.

I've heard predictions for some time that the Baby Boomers will be the first generation to do worse overall than the previous generation. Well I don't know if that's true, I think we've done pretty good but I see in the burden that we're expected to carry. The tax burden on the people is far greater than any other American generation in history. We are transferring more wealth to two classes of citizens (and non-citizens) that either don't produce anything and expect to be taken care of, and or have received more than they gave and don't know it. There are huge emotional barriers to overcome, and no one wants to face these people and tell them we can't afford it any longer. No one wants to tell them the bad news, and change the policies accordingly. This overwhelming burden on our society is controlling today's political landscape, which is dashing the hope and morale of people elsewhere that we can maintain the great experiment begun over 200 years ago by our Founders.

 

[Harshaw]

It's part and parcel of the weird combination of self-loathing and extreme self-regard which took root in the '60s generation, one which views things like the study of history and science as a fishing expedition to find all the things wrong with America, while simultaneously being dismissive of what's right. Been dealing with that kind of thing my entire life, and have been dismayed to find it reaching critical mass.

It's ironic, too, because one of the complaints put forth by that camp -- and it's not entirely without merit -- is that Americans don't see the world outside their borders. This is to some degree true. However, that camp also has the same myopia considering its prevailing attitudes of moral relativism, and it just plain smacks of "my country, always wrong." No, we're not, and frankly, for all the things they claim to cherish, we're a damn sight better off than most of the rest of the world. But you'd never know that to listen to them, because they don't even see it that way.

So, if the downtrodden of the rest of the world are looking at us and thinking we're stupidly frittering away those things which made us such a beacon to begin with, I can't blame them, because in many ways, we are.

 

[rathi]

The tax burden on the people is far greater than any other American generation in history. We are transferring more wealth to two classes of citizens (and non-citizens) that either don't produce anything and expect to be taken care of, and or have received more than they gave and don't know it.

That is simply not true. Today's top income tax bracket is far lower than it was in days past. Excepting the 1988-1992 period, it is lower than it has ever been since 1931. We currently have a 35% max, it reached as high as 92% in the 50's.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States]Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[the makeout hobo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but our politics are nothing compared to 1800.

 

[Agnapostate]

Not so much by particular instances, but by the general policies, philosophies, political tone and overall approaches to the "American Way" recently. What I mean is that America has been a beacon for other peoples and countries as an example of what's right about living a life of liberty.

What you mean is by the election and governance of a ruling administration that seeks to enact policies contrary to your own political ideology, which doesn't quite extend to an all-out attack on morality. I'm unsure what the remainder of your comment is supposed to convey. In terms of internal domestic conditions, the U.S. continues to be among the freest countries in the world, though probably not the freest, particularly after the enactment of draconian and authoritarian "anti-terrorist" domestic policy by the previous administration and preservation of such policy by the present administration. In terms of the exportation of those conditions to "other peoples and countries," U.S. political regimes have a long history of suppression of democratic and libertarian conditions that our general citizenry are largely unaware of. How many know of the CIA's support of anti-democratic coups against Mossadeq of Iran in 1953, Arbenz of Guatemala in 1954, or Allende of Chile in 1973? The citizenries of those countries are aware of this legacy, just as the persons that suffered under the Contras, Somoza, Batista, Trujillo, Marcos, etc., are aware of U.S. political regimes' exportation of authoritarianism.

People everywhere figure if there was a place in the world where you had a chance, and an opportunity to succeed or fail on your own, it is the United States of America.

Social mobility continues to be rather constricted in the U.S. compared to Western Europe. The "American Dream" simply isn't well-supported by empirical evidence. :shrug:

The direction our government is headed sends the wrong message to those people. People still want to come here because in many cases, no matter how bad it gets here from time to time, it's better than where they are. But I think some doubt has finally crept in.

Paradoxically, many wish to enjoy the relative domestic freedom of the U.S. due to damage to the domestic conditions of their own countries of origin contributed to in some part by U.S. political regimes. Haitians scrambled to come here running from Papa Doc even when governmental authorities turned them back; Mexicans seek employment in the informal labor market despite the fact that U.S. governmental expansion of trade liberalization caused their displacement to begin with.

The American people general stand for good, justice, charity, the rule of law and liberty. It's our foundation; we're not perfect and fail/stumble sometimes. But politics in American has begun to overshadow the underlying goodness that remains. Generally I don't care what other countries think, but for people elsewhere that are trying to change their circumstances under oppressive environments to live a freer and better life, I care about the lowering of their morale. I think there have always been people here that have worked to subvert our way of governing and introduce change to the foundation of our country, but it seems worse than ever. The enemy from within seems worse than ever, because they are part of us.

Now you make the distinctions between ruling political administrations and a heterogenous citizenry that you didn't make before by referring to the regimes themselves as "other countries" but referring to the heterogenous citizenries as "people elsewhere." The implication that a political regime can claok itself in the garb of representing the sentiments of a country's entire citizeny in every way, shape, and form provides the basis for your attacks on "self-loathing Americans" when they're critical of governmental policy. There's a reason that I say "U.S. political regimes have a long history of suppression of democratic and libertarian conditions" rather than "We have a long history of suppression of democratic and libertarian conditions."

We have citizens in our country that no longer believe in our flag, our creed, our Constitution, our history or our distinct culture. They believe in multiculturalism, socialism, atheism, low standards of achievement and double standards of applying the rules.

There aren't an abundance of true radicals in the U.S. because there's not a viable left in the U.S., nor a viable extreme right. As the most extreme leftist on this board, I've been content to express my support for socialism and atheism and my opposition to nationalism and national distinctions as a whole, for that matter. But those are simply facets of my interests in liberty maximization, and nothing to be ashamed of...though what do you mean by "distinct culture" and the allegation that it's polluted by multiculturalism? WASP culture?

My parents immigrated here in the 1950's looking for work. The economy in Germany was horrible. They started at the bottom, with little to no money and couldn't speak English. But they had a very strong work ethic. They adapted and overcame. Over the years they accomplished what most would consider the American Dream of living a pretty good life, free and retiring in comfort. They are in their 80's now, still doing well. The United States of America has accomplished a remarkable amount in it's short life, and can boast one of the oldest forms of government in history. We're use to being at the top, and it's hard and lonely there. But it's tough when you have so many among us that have given up on what got us here.

Again, there's an anecdotal report that can inform us of very little in regards to the actual constrictions on social mobility that exists in the U.S. compared to several European countries. For legitimate empirical analysis into how income inequality and restricted social mobility are more prevalent in the U.S. than in most European countries, consider Gangl's Income inequality, permanent incomes, and income dynamics: Comparing Europe to the United States.

In most of Europe, real income growth was actually higher than in the United States, many European countries thus achieve not just less income inequality but are able to combine this with higher levels of income stability, better chances of upward mobility for the poor, and a higher protection of the incomes of older workers than common in the United States.

Supplement that with analysis into the probability of intergenerational transmission of corresponding economic success, specifically the probability of children belonging to the same income level as their parents. Consider Corak's Do poor children become poor adults? Lessons from a cross country comparison of generational earnings mobility.

In the United States almost one half of children born to low income parents become low income adults. This is an extreme case, but the fraction is also high in the United Kingdom at four in ten, and Canada where about one-third of low income children do not escape low income in adulthood. In the Nordic countries, where overall child poverty rates are noticeably lower, it is also the case that a disproportionate fraction of low income children become low income adults. Generational cycles of low income may be common in the rich countries, but so are cycles of high income. Rich children tend to become rich adults. Four in ten children born to high income parents will grow up to be high income adults in the United States and the United Kingdom, and as many as one third will do so in Canada.

So we can thus clearly observe the nature of intergenerational transmission of an effectively matching income level being a significantly occurring pattern in the U.S. and other Western countries.

We may be able to attribute a sizable portion of that to direct inheritance, for which we'd consider a source such as Summers and Kotlikoff's The role of intergenerational transfers in aggregate capital accumulation. Consider the abstract:

This paper uses historical U.S. data to directly estimate the contribution of intergenerational transfers to aggregate capital accumulation. The evidence presented indicates that intergenerational transfers account for the vast majority of aggregate U.S. capital formation; only a negligible fraction of actual capital accumulation can be traced to life-cycle or "hump" savings.

Aside from that, there's also the obvious matter of a myriad amount of inequitable environmental conditions skewing human capital attainment, thus creating a prohibitive obstruction to upward social mobility.

I've heard predictions for some time that the Baby Boomers will be the first generation to do worse overall than the previous generation. Well I don't know if that's true, I think we've done pretty good but I see in the burden that we're expected to carry. The tax burden on the people is far greater than any other American generation in history.

That's decidedly untrue, particularly in the realm of progressive taxation. While the diminishing rate of marginal utility compels us to soak the wealthy in higher taxes as long as it remains economically viable, nothing of the sort is in place at the moment compared to the near-confiscatory levels that have previously existed.

We are transferring more wealth to two classes of citizens (and non-citizens) that either don't produce anything and expect to be taken care of, and or have received more than they gave and don't know it. There are huge emotional barriers to overcome, and no one wants to face these people and tell them we can't afford it any longer. No one wants to tell them the bad news, and change the policies accordingly. This overwhelming burden on our society is controlling today's political landscape, which is dashing the hope and morale of people elsewhere that we can maintain the great experiment begun over 200 years ago by our Founders.

Your foes aren't the indigent citizens and displaced foreigners that are held up by the elites to ensure working class division and prevent their victories in class conflict. Your foes are the financial class and the capitalist economic structure that enables their slovenly and unproductive activity, since, as I continue to mention, the economic framework of capitalism involves a scheme in which the private ownership of the means of production (acquired through a coercive process of "primitive accumulation") and consequent hierarchical subordination of labor under capital enables the extraction of surplus value from the working class in the production process through the use of wage labor and subsequent utilization in the circulation process in order to perpetuate a vicious cycle of capital accumulation.

Our present capitalist economic structure is wholly incompatible with the more libertarian Founders' intent since the "laissez-faire" prescriptions offered by classical liberal thinkers during a period in which agrarian conditions and relatively egalitarian land distribution were expected to maintain equitable economic conditions are largely inapplicable to modern economic and more broadly societal conditions in which large-scale industrial development after the phase of the primitive accumulation of capital has spawned corporate capitalism, a state-supported economic structure that involves market and wealth concentration and thus, consolidation of primary influence over government and near-complete ownership and management rights over industry by an elite financial class.

 

[Orion]

Nice partisan talking points American. I was here during the end of the Bush days and you were an avid supporter of him. Why is it only now that you are worried, when the problems of the U.S. have been deepening for years now?

You think people around the world look up to the U.S.? Poor people have heard tales of the riches of the U.S., and that's what they look up to. The U.S. has the most backward foreign policy of all the developed nations... one day you're its friend, the next it wants to invade you or place an embargo on you. It's inconsistent at best. So yeah, the propaganda of what the U.S. is persists from the Cold War era, but the past couple of Presidents have done a bang up job of showing the world the reality of its foreign policy. The every day people in most places I've been hate the U.S., and it mostly relates to injustice. I think it's a damn shame because the U.S. is a wonderful country, but your government is too busy walking over everyone, including its own people, to maintain a good image anymore. It doesn't even bother hiding it these days.

The American dream is also propaganda. Of all developed nations, the U.S. has the most rapidly widening gap between rich and poor. Only now is it becoming evident to everyone.

I'm not saying the U.S. isn't or hasn't been a great nation, but the doubt that you say is creeping in is, in actual fact, reality. The American people are disillusioned with the leadership and even the partisan games that the government has played in keeping the people divided is slowly beginning to wear off as the people realize that both parties are self-serving bureaucratic institutions with no care in the world for the betterment of the people.

They believe in multiculturalism, socialism, atheism, low standards of achievement and double standards of applying the rules.

Partisan talking points.

Multiculturalism is what built the modern America. You think only descedants of the pilgrims built all those skyscrapers and factories which brought the U.S. modern economic success? Think again. Without cheap immigrant labor it would have taken twice as long as see the booms that took place. Even now, the whole melting pot mentality of your country pressures people to be "American" before anything else.

Socialism...? You don't even know what socialism is, living in the U.S. Even as a developed country that maintains some of the lowest standards in health care, education, and civil services, you still have an abundance compared to many parts of the world. When I see people complain about so-called socialism, I see a bunch of ingrates who don't even know how lucky they are to have what they have. And with all of those luxuries, they sit there and cry when they have to lift a finger to help another member of their community. What was it you were saying about the core values of America?

Atheism? I don't even see how it's relevant. Enough said.

Low standards of achievement... maybe. I'd say the problem has mostly been the wrong priorities for achievement. The same goes for Canada. The job market has become a big filter for those who have degrees and those who don't, but all of the paper pushing you do in school does not prepare you for the real world (except for the specialist programs, like medicine, engineering, etc).

Double standards for the rules... well, welcome to the very nature of big government, which your people have accepted with open arms. Just like American foreign policy is one big double standard, the way people are treated domestically is the same.

The U.S. has lost its way and it's not for the reasons you outlined. Stop watching Fox News and get your head out of the sand. Maybe then you'll see the real reasons.

 

[American]

That is simply not true. Today's top income tax bracket is far lower than it was in days past. Excepting the 1988-1992 period, it is lower than it has ever been since 1931. We currently have a 35% max, it reached as high as 92% in the 50's.

Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The income tax rates are not what have changed dramatically over the past 30-40 years, but the rate of increase in social security deductions. However, these particular individual issues not what I had hoped to debate, but the generally change in our belief in liberty and opportunity. If you want to discuss one area, I would talk about how people see the Constitution.

 

[Elena]

Orius

Beautifully put!