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Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire[W:226]

Thoreau72

Thoreau72

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Considering the recent fire at the Dubai tower, is it possible to infer that the theory and explanation advanced by NIST is invalid or inaccurate?

If it is true that office fires can weaken steel in 1 hour or 2, leading to collapse, why was that not demonstrated in the Dubai event which burned for a day or more?

I assume that any interested posters will already be aware of the Dubai fire and also the gist of the NIST report.

Thoughts?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

How many airliners hit the tower in Dubai?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Relevant video: Please Watch.

 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Well that did not take long... :roll:
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Thoreau72 said:
Considering the recent fire at the Dubai tower, is it possible to infer that the theory and explanation advanced by NIST is invalid or inaccurate?

If it is true that office fires can weaken steel in 1 hour or 2, leading to collapse, why was that not demonstrated in the Dubai event which burned for a day or more?

I assume that any interested posters will already be aware of the Dubai fire and also the gist of the NIST report.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think you completely ignored Marks discussion in the other thread.

I think you cannot distinguish between an external fire and an internal fire.

I think you cannot distinguish between a building built to 1960 standards and one built to 2000+ standards.

There a many more, but tired of thumb typing.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Thoreau72 said:
Considering the recent fire at the Dubai tower, is it possible to infer that the theory and explanation advanced by NIST is invalid or inaccurate?

If it is true that office fires can weaken steel in 1 hour or 2, leading to collapse, why was that not demonstrated in the Dubai event which burned for a day or more?

I assume that any interested posters will already be aware of the Dubai fire and also the gist of the NIST report.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

You left out some things. HD. Like the damage done by the crash into the building by the aircraft.
The buildings are not of the same design.

How would you describe the office fire at Dubia?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Moon said:
How many airliners hit the tower in Dubai?
Click to expand...

I assumed you would know--zero.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

mike2810 said:
You left out some things. HD. Like the damage done by the crash into the building by the aircraft.
The buildings are not of the same design.

How would you describe the office fire at Dubia?
Click to expand...

But the principles are the same Mike--fires weakening steel, and an hour later, maybe 2, the building collapses at virtual free fall speeds.

Yes, the Dubai event had no airplane strike and no jetfuel, but unlike WTC towers, virtually the entire building was involved, top to bottom. WTC had only about 10 floors involved. The rest of the building was not involved, and that's how and why so many from NYFD made it as high in the building as they did.

So if the NIST explanation were valid--heated steel becoming weak and then failing, why did that not happen at Dubai? The fires were larger, covered more area, appeared to be more intense, burned 10 or 20 times longer in duration, yet the building remained standing.

Kevin Ryan pointed out that steel is a poor conductor of heat, and that the steel at WTC met all UL and Fire Code specifications. Does Dubai perhaps use better steel then than they do in NYC?

Could it be that the NIST explanation is not valid? Did political nepotism trump the scientific method at NIST? It appears so.

Is this one of those "reality bites" moments for those embracing the NIST explanation?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Thoreau72 said:
But the principles are the same Mike--fires weakening steel, and an hour later, maybe 2, the building collapses at virtual free fall speeds.

Yes, the Dubai event had no airplane strike and no jetfuel, but unlike WTC towers, virtually the entire building was involved, top to bottom. WTC had only about 10 floors involved. The rest of the building was not involved, and that's how and why so many from NYFD made it as high in the building as they did.

So if the NIST explanation were valid--heated steel becoming weak and then failing, why did that not happen at Dubai? The fires were larger, covered more area, appeared to be more intense, burned 10 or 20 times longer in duration, yet the building remained standing.

Kevin Ryan pointed out that steel is a poor conductor of heat, and that the steel at WTC met all UL and Fire Code specifications. Does Dubai perhaps use better steel then than they do in NYC?

Could it be that the NIST explanation is not valid? Did political nepotism trump the scientific method at NIST? It appears so.

Is this one of those "reality bites" moments for those embracing the NIST explanation?
Click to expand...

Where was the Dubai fire?

Where were the WTC fires?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Fledermaus said:
I think you cannot distinguish between a building built to 1960 standards and one built to 2000+ standards.
Click to expand...

To be fair, WTC7 was built to pretty modern standards.
Haven't seen the structural drawings for the Dubai tower though. Have you?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Fledermaus said:
Irrelevant.
Click to expand...
No it isn't. As it happens, the Dubai building was concrete, so isn't a good comparison.
But to infer that WTC7 was in some way inferior by design is misleading.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

gerrycan said:
No it isn't. As it happens, the Dubai building was concrete, so isn't a good comparison.
But to infer that WTC7 was in some way inferior by design is misleading.
Click to expand...

Derp, derp...

Grab a clue.

Look at WTC7s construction.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Fledermaus said:
Derp, derp...

Grab a clue.

Look at WTC7s construction.
Click to expand...

I have. What specific area do you believe was sub standard ?
Do you think that the unfilled flutes in WTC7 contributed to the alleged collapse initiating event?

ETA Deary me. Someone needs to go and
Fledermaus said:
Look at WTC7s construction.
Click to expand...
 
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Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Thoreau72 said:
I assumed you would know--zero.
Click to expand...
I did know that, which is why I wouldn't try to draw any comparisons between the two. Different circumstances, so different results.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

gerrycan said:
I have. What specific area do you believe was sub standard ?
Do you think that the unfilled flutes in WTC7 contributed to the alleged collapse initiating event?

ETA Deary me. Someone needs to go and
Click to expand...

Still can't figure out what made WTC7 unique?

And will a tower built in the early 1980s be built to the standards of the 21st century and employ what was learned after the attacks in 2001?

Oh, and where was the Dubai fire?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Fledermaus said:
Still can't figure out what made WTC7 unique?

And will a tower built in the early 1980s be built to the standards of the 21st century and employ what was learned after the attacks in 2001?

Oh, and where was the Dubai fire?
Click to expand...

I'd say that WTC7 was a superior design. Certainly the cladding seems to have been.
So what part of WTC7 is it that you believe was inferior. It would have to be around the 13th floor to the NE at the girder spanning columns 79 and 44. Right?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

gerrycan said:
I'd say that WTC7 was a superior design. Certainly the cladding seems to have been.
So what part of WTC7 is it that you believe was inferior. It would have to be around the 13th floor to the NE at the girder spanning columns 79 and 44. Right?
Click to expand...

Is this leading to a truther controlled demolition claim?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

gerrycan said:
I'd say that WTC7 was a superior design. Certainly the cladding seems to have been.
So what part of WTC7 is it that you believe was inferior. It would have to be around the 13th floor to the NE at the girder spanning columns 79 and 44. Right?
Click to expand...

Where was the Dubai fire?

You appear to be dodging.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

zyzygy said:
Is this leading to a truther controlled demolition claim?
Click to expand...

No. more of a "NISTs stated hypothesis for the initiating event of the girder spanning Columns 79-44 failing by thermal expansion of beams to the NE of it in the heating phase of their finite element analysis is impossible because of the column 79 west side plate" claim.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

gerrycan said:
No. more of a "NISTs stated hypothesis for the initiating event of the girder spanning Columns 79-44 failing by thermal expansion of beams to the NE of it in the heating phase of their finite element analysis is impossible because of the column 79 west side plate" claim.
Click to expand...

And this is unlikely because _________________ .
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Fledermaus said:
Where was the Dubai fire?

You appear to be dodging.
Click to expand...

It was on the outside of the building. It spread because of the aluminium sandwiched plastic cored type cladding that is common in Dubai. Such cladding would not have complied with code as per WTC7 and experts are blaming lax building code in Dubai for allowing this material to be used in cladding of high rises.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Fledermaus said:
And this is unlikely because _________________ .
Click to expand...

...the girder expands to the inside of the C79 west side plate 1.8" overlap at an early stage of the heating phase, as per the latest analysis of the structure. It can only fail in the cooling phase by contraction of the beams, once it has contracted enough itself to clear the C79 east side plate 1.8" extension.
ETA
"Phil Barry, Founder of Britain's CWB Fire Safety Consultants Ltd.

Barry told Reuters that, working as a consultant in the Gulf in 2012, he had identified "a general trend of fires in high-rises," which in some places indicated a need for stronger regulation and tougher building codes." emphasis added
 
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