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That's a major part of the long-term plan....We'd rather NOT go country-hopping...mixedmedia said:I believe Iran can transform itself without an American shot fired - and THAT WILL BE a powerful enough impetus for change in the region.
mixedmedia said:From what I've read about the revolution though, it was made up of fundamentalists and socialists, aligned in the beginning - which side do you suppose America might have taken up with in the early Reagan years? Commies ain't the first group that comes to mind, lol.
Of course, those of them THAT ARE LEFT, might turn out to be, if not our allies, then our best bet. Iran's best bet.
cnredd said:That's a major part of the long-term plan....We'd rather NOT go country-hopping...
Planting a seed and attempting to let nature take its course is a much better proposal...
I am cautiously optimistic about Iran...Now for now, but in 10-20 years...We just have to "wait" the current leadership out and make sure they don't go for a last resort, desperate attempt to keep their power...
It's also fun to watch Europe trip over itself with years of proliferation talks with Iran and getting nowhere...diplomatic idiots...:roll:
cnredd said:That's a major part of the long-term plan....We'd rather NOT go country-hopping...
Planting a seed and attempting to let nature take its course is a much better proposal...
I am cautiously optimistic about Iran...Now for now, but in 10-20 years...We just have to "wait" the current leadership out and make sure they don't go for a last resort, desperate attempt to keep their power...
It's also fun to watch Europe trip over itself with years of proliferation talks with Iran and getting nowhere...diplomatic idiots...:roll:
mixedmedia said:I'm not sure it will take 10-20 years. I hope not.
I am coming to terms with the "long term plan." I'm still doubtful that we have gone about this the right way. I think we made alot of mistakes.
And, I'm not counting Europe out. Perhaps they have made a lot of mistakes, too, but several thousand years of history is nothing to laugh at. Everybody has to have their downtime.
GySgt said:IF we did something, I think we would have indirectly backed who ever was against Khomeini. If this means communists, it would have just gone down in history as another American controversy for the world to throw in our faces. Big wup. We're used to it.
mixedmedia said:They all backed Khomeini in the early days. Until they started trying to get the commie girls to wear the head scarf and locking up dissenters - torture, executions & other standard evil regime business. I don't know, I kind of doubt America would have dared to stick our neck into that one. Especially right after the hostage crisis. It was the socialists who took over the embassy and took them hostage. Which is probably the only reason they were kept alive all that time.
Your mouth to my d...I mean, "God's ears"...:2wave:mixedmedia said:I'm not sure it will take 10-20 years. I hope not.
Two correct statements, but here's the difference...mixedmedia said:I am coming to terms with the "long term plan." I'm still doubtful that we have gone about this the right way. I think we made alot of mistakes.
Ah, the kings of the path of least resistance...One would think that the phrase "fool me 876 times; Shame on me" would be ringing in their head...Their "everything is hunky-dory" attitude has bit them in the ass when it comes to their own immigration issues, but the problem is that it hasn't even bit them hard enough to react properly...So they will appease the newcomers(Britain has plans to fund 150 Muslim schools where the Clerics will tell the students they are to hate Britain), and they will continue to appease to where the term "European" will be of geographical importance and nothing more...They're losing their identity at the demands of others, and are willing to abide...mixedmedia said:And, I'm not counting Europe out. Perhaps they have made a lot of mistakes, too, but several thousand years of history is nothing to laugh at. Everybody has to have their downtime.
cnredd said:Ah, the kings of the path of least resistance...One would think that the phrase "fool me 876 times; Shame on me" would be ringing in their head...Their "everything is hunky-dory" attitude has bit them in the ass when it comes to their own immigration issues, but the problem is that it hasn't even bit them hard enough to react properly...So they will appease the newcomers(Britain has plans to fund 150 Muslim schools where the Clerics will tell the students they are to hate Britain), and they will continue to appease to where the term "European" will be of geographical importance and nothing more...They're losing their identity at the demands of others, and are willing to abide...
2050 - Welcome to Eurabia...
cnredd said:Your mouth to my d...I mean, "God's ears"...:2wave:
Two correct statements, but here's the difference...
Some people(myself included), acknowledge the mistakes but understand the big picture...
Others thrive on the mistakes with no knowledge of the big picture...
Ah, the kings of the path of least resistance...One would think that the phrase "fool me 876 times; Shame on me" would be ringing in their head...Their "everything is hunky-dory" attitude has bit them in the ass when it comes to their own immigration issues, but the problem is that it hasn't even bit them hard enough to react properly...So they will appease the newcomers(Britain has plans to fund 150 Muslim schools where the Clerics will tell the students they are to hate Britain), and they will continue to appease to where the term "European" will be of geographical importance and nothing more...They're losing their identity at the demands of others, and are willing to abide...
cnredd said:“Ah, the kings of the path of least resistance...One would think that the phrase "fool me 876 times; Shame on me" would be ringing in their head...Their "everything is hunky-dory" attitude has bit them in the ass when it comes to their own immigration issues, but the problem is that it hasn't even bit them hard enough to react properly...So they will appease the newcomers
cnredd said:(Britain has plans to fund 150 Muslim schools where the Clerics will tell the students they are to hate Britain)
cnredd said:...and they will continue to appease to where the term "European" will be of geographical importance and nothing more...They're losing their identity at the demands of others, and are willing to abide...
cnredd said:2050 - Welcome to Eurabia...
cnredd said:Two correct statements, but here's the difference...
Some people(myself included), acknowledge the mistakes but understand the big picture...
Others thrive on the mistakes with no knowledge of the big picture...
Mancunian said:Back to the subject matter. I understand the logic of your argument with regard to the big picture but I’m just not convinced that what you are saying is the real reason we are in Iraq or whether or not it will actually work. I think the fact that Iraq's one of the major oil producers in the world with the second largest reserves is the main reason we’re there; that and the fact that it was pretty defenceless. Your view on why we’re there means it will take generations to complete that kind of mission. You’ve made a start you say. Well, yes, but GWB isn’t going to be around for much longer (politically!) and who’s to say your preferred party will be in power in just a few years time, never mind generations. The whole plan could go wrong very quickly. But wait, someone with a similar mindset to GWB may gain power at a later date and we can start over again….. Only time will tell who’s right.
Lastly….
The trick is not just to acknowledge your mistakes but learn from them. You might say thriving, I would say there is a place for people who remind others of their mistakes to ensure they don’t happen again. Can you imagine a population that agreed with everything their government did?
GySgt said:This civilization and the terrorist that break away from their millions of extremist within, is giving us no choice.
mixedmedia said:Sorry to narrow down such a large post to this one statement, but I've seen you write this before. Do you really believe that the extremists, and I mean people of action not sympathizers - for its not inconceivable for someone to sympathize with the philosophy but not condone the violence - do you believe the number of active Islamic extremists - those who support waging war on the West - really number in the millions? Or, maybe I'm just reading this wrong.
GySgt said:No..no. You are reading it correct. It is not a matter of what I believe. This is the reality. The Middle East has three types of sentiments.
1) Those that are indifferent, but were raised to hate and blame Israel and their American slaves. A single example of this group would be a Jordanian that was interviewed after their recent bombings. He stated that he "used to agree with Al-Queda because they fought Muslim enemies, but when they started targetting Muslims....he stopped". He said that he "doesn't understand it anymore." Keep in mind that this is Jordan....not Syria, Iran, or Saudi. This menatlity is what allows them to see American civilians as legit targets for terror.
2) Those that support groups like Al-Queda, because they are doing "Allah's" work on earth against infidels, which are Israel and the west. These would be the extremists that you see cheering for their "Martyrs." This is also the group that graduates some of its members to the next group.
3) Those that take their extremism to the next level and become desperate terrorists.
This civilization is very much a threat to us and they number in the tens and tens of millions. They are spread all over the above mentioned groups. The numbers are more in group 1 than 2 and group 2 is much larger than group 3. Group 3 is actually very small compared to the whole civilization. Their televisions air commercials and videos that show "martyrs" on their way to destroy citizens in Israel. I don't mean to paint a picture of "doom," but this is very much what is there. In the Middle East, blame, is the narcotic of choice and they blame us for the ruin of their societies.
GySgt said:No..no. You are reading it correct. It is not a matter of what I believe. This is the reality. The Middle East has three types of sentiments.
1) Those that are indifferent, but were raised to hate and blame Israel and their American slaves. A single example of this group would be a Jordanian that was interviewed after their recent bombings. He stated that he "used to agree with Al-Queda because they fought Muslim enemies, but when they started targetting Muslims....he stopped". He said that he "doesn't understand it anymore." Keep in mind that this is Jordan....not Syria, Iran, or Saudi. This menatlity is what allows them to see American civilians as legit targets for terror.
2) Those that support groups like Al-Queda, because they are doing "Allah's" work on earth against infidels, which are Israel and the west. These would be the extremists that you see cheering for their "Martyrs." This is also the group that graduates some of its members to the next group.
3) Those that take their extremism to the next level and become desperate terrorists.
This civilization is very much a threat to us and they number in the tens and tens of millions. They are spread all over the above mentioned groups. The numbers are more in group 1 than 2 and group 2 is much larger than group 3. Group 3 is actually very small compared to the whole civilization. Their televisions air commercials and videos that show "martyrs" on their way to destroy citizens in Israel. I don't mean to paint a picture of "doom," but this is very much what is there. In the Middle East, blame, is the narcotic of choice and they blame us for the ruin of their societies.
GySgt said:A democratic Middle East is not just in American interests, but to the whole world, especially so for the Muslims in the Middle East.
GySgt said:Make no mistake...this will take generations, but not necessarily violent action. The Middle East is something that we must stay engaged with, but not be consumed by. Our fight is with the few, but our struggle must be with the many. Iraq is just Iraq. Iran is just Iran. Syria is just Syria. Saudi is just Saudi. Together, they make a civilization that must change. They must meet the demands of the 21st century, because their treasured values and inherited behaviors simply do not work in today's world of global progress. Their extremists and terrorists are making a gory mess of their religion. When an entire civilization embraces such butchers, both the civilization and the religion are in trouble. When the rest of the world chooses to tolerate such behavior rather than face it, they are doomed to be consumed by it.
GySgt said:No single President and no 8 year period can accomplish what must be done. What was necessary to give the Iraqis a chance to progress beyond their plight is not necessary for Iranians. Syria may be only in need of a punitive strike on it's military and their Baathist Party masters to allow the Syrians to progress. The next President may (and should) do very minor military action and spend most of his time nurturing what is already occuring in other Muslim countries surrounding Iraq. He will have no choice, because a determined enemy will make you face him one way or the other. Most everything that must occur in ours and our childrens futures will entail aggresive diplomacy. The diplomatic talks with Syria regarding Lebanon, Israel's recent pull from the Gaza Strip, and Europes talks with Iran are very much a part of this "War on Terror." Though not a part of the Middle East, even talks with North Korea can be a part of it. This is why the "War on Terror" is said to be a "global" war.
GySgt said:Oil and other such material gains are just perks. The same type of perks that come with every war. Even during WWII, we also protected our trade partners. It wasn't just about liberating Jews and taking out a tyrant. Receiving incentives and securing interests doesn't make the effort any less noble.
Mancunian said:Agree. My reservations lie with the way we convince Muslims this is the way to go. It's crucial that the majority of Iraqi's feel they themselves are better off with a system of representative government; great care must be taken to ensure mistakes don't happen. Some are lashing out at us because mistakes have been made and lives lost have been dismissed by some as a consequence of war. Maybe so, but each mistake makes winning people's minds that bit harder.
Iriemon said:How can we "win people's minds" without credibility?
Connecticutter said:I agree - but let me ask you a direct question: do you believe that we still would have gone into Iraq if there was no documented brutality of Saddam Hussein's regime against the Iraqi people? I just don't see it happening.
So let the media should decide on how credible the US is? Right?Iriemon said:How can we "win people's minds" without credibility?
stsburns said:So let the media should decide on how credible the US is? Right?Because they are the ones making us not credible, right?
Because they "report" how we are doing, how well we are doing, how bad we are doing. They tell us what to think. What to feel. They have to power to manipulate our emotions. They can choose on how they want to use that power, even if it is for their own perposes.Iriemon said:How is the media not making the US credible?
Iriemon said:Group 4) Those who were indifferent or liked Americans and what America stood for, but are disillusioned by an America that locks people away in secret torture prisons without charges or proof; who are outraged that America would invade a Muslem country based upon false pretenses, claiming to come in for a limited purpose but staying for an indefinite period; and who are outraged at American killing Muslems daily. An America which is acting just like the Islamic radicals proclaim -- as puppets for the "zionists."
Group 5) The thousands or tens of thousands of those who were indifferent or liked America, but who have now lost their mom, their dad, their brother or sister or their child to American bombs, or terrorist attacks caused by America's erroneous war, who now blame America for it, and vow revenge.
These are the categories we should be worried about.
mixedmedia said:Providing your synopsis is accurate, then what in your opinion is the likelihood of convincing the masses in category one that there are no "Muslim enemies"? Assuming that most in the other two categories will never accept the concept of Islam without an accompanying enemy.
Personally, I think there is another large category, perhaps equal to or larger than your first category, and that is the group - much like we have here in America - that doesn't have an opinion for or against Al Qaeda, etc., because they are too busy trying to make sure they have something to put on the table that day. This is a group that it might be well worth it for us to help accomplish that small daily goal.
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