Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Ockham · Feb 8, 2015

paddymcdougall said:
Key thing is people should have a choice - and with that comes consequences for their choice. Period.

paddymcdougall said:
Well, an earlier poster linked to data showing that the kids coming across the border ARE vaccinated. The adults, due to the high vaccination rates, probably are vaccinated, but can't know for sure.

So if we can't be sure, we can't make statements that they ARE vaccinated. The answer is, "we don't know".

paddymcdougall said:
While you can have a choice - don't get vaccinated - what's easier, vaccinating yourself or trying to find any unvaccinated people coming to the country as tourists, immigrants (legal or illegal), and citizens who are returning from overseas?

Why would we let illegals cross in the first place, secondly why let them through without proof of vaccinations and third, why would we vaccinate illegals and not just send them home? It's the trifecta of idiocy that our Federal Government did all three. Obviously it's easier for us to vaccinate, but not everyone agrees.

paddymcdougall said:
And your choice has consequences for others. I know several adults who came down with whooping cough recently. They hadn't been overseas; hadn't been in contact with people from other countries. Got it right here in the good old USA from kids whose parents didn't vaccinate them. None of us has really paid attention to the fact that the whooping cough vaccine lasts about 10 years; the thought was that was good enough since all the kids got immunized. Well, it's not good enough anymore. Get your TDAP booster (the shot for whooping cough, among other things)

True.

MrsMartinBlank · Feb 8, 2015

JANFU said:
One point I see some while favoring vaccination for others see mandatory vaccinations, either by schools enforcing and demanding proof of vaccination as a violation of their rights.
That their rights as a parent(s) are infringed upon.
95 % is the rate of vaccination needed to minimize & contain outbreaks.
While some are against the MMR, are they also against vaccination for polio?

I understand the basic premise of balancing privacy and parental rights with government mandates. It's a tough balance, parents have a fundamental right to parent their children until they are proven unfit - but - I think the public interest outweighs those concerns in several places. We are subject to a whole list of requirements to access our transportation system - IDs, registering our cars, mandatory insurance, seatbelt and helmet laws, etc. I guess one could make the case that none of those are requiring you to have a medical procedure - but the courts have already ruled against faith-based only healing in so many cases. I just don't think these anti-vaccine people have a legal leg to stand on.

Montecresto · Feb 8, 2015

MrsMartinBlank said:
I understand the basic premise of balancing privacy and parental rights with government mandates. It's a tough balance, parents have a fundamental right to parent their children until they are proven unfit - but - I think the public interest outweighs those concerns in several places. We are subject to a whole list of requirements to access our transportation system - IDs, registering our cars, mandatory insurance, seatbelt and helmet laws, etc. I guess one could make the case that none of those are requiring you to have a medical procedure - but the courts have already ruled against faith-based only healing in so many cases. I just don't think these anti-vaccine people have a legal leg to stand on.

It's not just faith based objections. There are those that object on the basis of science that found potential hazards with vaccinations, though that science, appears to have been subsequently found incomplete or inaccurate.

minnie616 · Feb 8, 2015

Montecresto said:
It's not just faith based objections. There are those that object on the basis of science that found potential hazards with vaccinations, though that science, appears to have been subsequently found incomplete or inaccurate.

Not only inaccurate but it was Fraud.
A few snips from Andrew Wakefield's fraud case

Andrew Wakefield's role unmasked

But as journalists queued to report on parents' fears, Brian Deer was assigned to investigate the crisis, and unearthed a scandal of astounding proportions.

He discovered that, far from being based on any findings, the public alarm had no scientific basis whatsoever. Rather, Wakefield had been secretly payrolled to create evidence against the shot and, while planning extraordinary business schemes meant to profit from the scare, he had concealed, misreported and changed information about the children to rig the results published in the journal.

Before Deer’s inquiries, Wakefield had appeared to all the world to be an independent, if controversial, researcher. Tall and square-headed, with hooded eyes and a booming voice, he was the son of doctors (a neurologist and a family practitioner), had grown up in Bath, a prosperous west-of-England spa town, and joined the Royal Free in November 1988 after training in Toronto, Canada. His demeanour was languid - he was privately educated - and, born in 1956, he was a lingering example of the presumed honour of the upper middle class.

But Deer's investigation - nominated in February 2011 for twoBritish Press Awards - discovered that, while Wakefield held himself out to be a dispassionate scientist,

two years before the Lancet paper was published - and before any of the 12 children were even referred to the hospital - he had been hired to attack MMR by a lawyer, Richard Barr: a jobbing solicitor in the small eastern English town of King's Lynn, who hoped to raise a speculative class action lawsuit against drug companies which manufactured the triple shot.

Read more:
Andrew Wakefield - the fraud investigation

Montecresto · Feb 8, 2015

minnie616 said:
Not only inaccurate but it was Fraud.
A few snips from Andrew Wakefield's fraud case

Read more:
Andrew Wakefield - the fraud investigation

Yeah, I know about that one. I thought there were other studies as well. Btw, I'm not defending the notion that people ought not vaccinate their children, even if there was, is, or may be discovered in some future analysis, a risk of autism or any other very bad potential effects of vaccinations, it would have to approach a significant percentage risk before I would pull my support. You might note my first comment in this thread several posts back.

Misterveritis · Feb 8, 2015

JasperL said:
You'll have to explain that. Illegals have been flooding over the border since Reagan signed the last amnesty. I'm missing how this is a problem unique to Obama or how they affect his unstated plans. Since 2008 at worst the illegal population has been stagnant, if not declining. In the prior eight years, it increased about 4 million.

Also not sure who "those illegals" are who we should be most concerned about. The 12 million that were here before Obama, or the net zero since he took office? And if you're talking about the children moved to various places around the country by immigration folks, they WERE vaccinated as part of the medical treatment they got under the care of the Feds. I've posted the link outlining the care those children received.

Beginning in mid to late 2013 The Insane One invited his Million Illegal Aliens to come here from the poorest nations in South America. The federal government dispersed those million illegal into communities across the nation. Mysteriously, right about that time a half dozen diseases that had been eradicated began to re-emerge.

Maybe the Federal government should tell us every place where The Insane One's Million Illegal Aliens were put. And maybe the CDC should publish the legal status of every measles case, especially of the carriers who started each instance.

Then we need to impeach The Insane One for violating the Constitution.

Misterveritis · Feb 8, 2015

nota bene said:
Here's an interesting argument: Revoke the license of any doctor who opposes vaccination - The Washington Post

Isn't this how tyranny works?

Misterveritis · Feb 8, 2015

Montecresto said:
If I vaccinate my child, it won't hurt yours, if you don't vaccinate your child, it might hurt mine!

Then why bother with vaccinations at all?

Montecresto · Feb 8, 2015

Misterveritis said:
Then why bother with vaccinations at all?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

Misterveritis · Feb 8, 2015

Montecresto said:
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

If everyone must be vaccinated for anyone to be protected then why bother at all?

This was all about moving the conversation away from the most likely source of the re-emergence of these diseases, The Insane One's Million Illegal Aliens.

nota bene · Feb 8, 2015

It's a fact that tuberculosis re-entered the U.S. through Mexico, at first through cattle.

From Slate:

Diseases that are endemic to other countries are not always the same ones that we face in the United States. This is a medical observation, not a political one, and it is the reason immigrants who enter this country legally face rigorous screenings in advance of entry for sexually transmitted diseases, active tuberculosis, new strains of influenza, leprosy, cholera, and plague.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention require that all legal immigrants receive a medical exam. Proof of vaccination is also mandatory for measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, haemophilus strains, hepatitis A and B, rotavirus, meningococcus, chicken pox, pneumonia, and seasonal flu.

None of these rigorous screenings can be done in advance of entry on people who enter this country illegally and undetected. And once people are detained, the screenings they receive are not nearly as rigorous or effective at controlling the spread of disease. This is the reason that we have a potential public health crisis along our southern border. Children crossing border illegally: A possible public health crisis from detention centers.

Montecresto · Feb 8, 2015

Misterveritis said:
If everyone must be vaccinated for anyone to be protected then why bother at all?

This was all about moving the conversation away from the most likely source of the re-emergence of these diseases, The Insane One's Million Illegal Aliens.

If science supports the notion that less than 100% is adequate! I suppose I haven't any concerns then. We do have 102 cases of measles going on, after having gone sometime with out them. What's the explanation for that.

Montecresto · Feb 8, 2015

nota bene said:
It's a fact that tuberculosis re-entered the U.S. through Mexico, at first through cattle.

From Slate:

Diseases that are endemic to other countries are not always the same ones that we face in the United States. This is a medical observation, not a political one, and it is the reason immigrants who enter this country legally face rigorous screenings in advance of entry for sexually transmitted diseases, active tuberculosis, new strains of influenza, leprosy, cholera, and plague.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention require that all legal immigrants receive a medical exam. Proof of vaccination is also mandatory for measles, mumps, rubella, polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, haemophilus strains, hepatitis A and B, rotavirus, meningococcus, chicken pox, pneumonia, and seasonal flu.

None of these rigorous screenings can be done in advance of entry on people who enter this country illegally and undetected. And once people are detained, the screenings they receive are not nearly as rigorous or effective at controlling the spread of disease. This is the reason that we have a potential public health crisis along our southern border. Children crossing border illegally: A possible public health crisis from detention centers.

That is a concern.

MrsMartinBlank · Feb 8, 2015

Montecresto said:
It's not just faith based objections. There are those that object on the basis of science that found potential hazards with vaccinations, though that science, appears to have been subsequently found incomplete or inaccurate.

My point was that the courts have already said - especially in the case of minor children - that they can force
You to have a medical procedure. One of the threads on this site discusses the current case of a minor being forces to undergo chemo despite her and her parents wishes.

nota bene · Feb 8, 2015

Montecresto said:
That is a concern.

Yes, it is. And what should scare the living daylights out of folks are the MRSAs, which now kill more people than HIV.

beefheart · Feb 8, 2015

Misterveritis said:
Beginning in mid to late 2013 The Insane One invited his Million Illegal Aliens to come here from the poorest nations in South America. The federal government dispersed those million illegal into communities across the nation. Mysteriously, right about that time a half dozen diseases that had been eradicated began to re-emerge.

Maybe the Federal government should tell us every place where The Insane One's Million Illegal Aliens were put. And maybe the CDC should publish the legal status of every measles case, especially of the carriers who started each instance.

Then we need to impeach The Insane One for violating the Constitution.

You are obsessed with hate.

roguenuke · Feb 9, 2015

Deuce said:
Yeah. Because of the vaccinations.

No, because of our healthcare system. Voluntarily vaccinating is certainly a good thing, however, that does not account for the fact that even most of those who do not get vaccinated and do get something like measles do not die. In fact, the majority of those who do die from something like measles die from a complication, something that can happen when a person gets so many different illnesses and ends up with a second one or already has something.

One example of a complication that can kill is pneumonia. My son had pneumonia last year. It really wasn't that hard for the doctor to check for it. He simply xrayed his chest (in fact, the doctor even said at first he didn't think it was pneumonia but was making sure, turned out it was). He prescribed antibiotics and sent him home. My sisters however had asthma attacks (one more severe than the other) along with pneumonia (again, one more severe than the other, but the opposite) happen at the same time. They both were in the hospital for a day or so and got better.

The thing I am pointing out is that these things do happen, and people should try to prevent them voluntarily as much as possible. But that should be voluntary. If you want them to do this, teach them why it benefits them, rather than trying to force them to do it. Many people do not like being forced into doing things, especially something they feel violates their beliefs. But with a little patience and education you may just actually convince them (especially those who are anti-vacs because of the belief that vaccines cause autism) that vaccines are safe and important.

roguenuke · Feb 9, 2015

Lursa said:
I know that. However if you are casual about passing CP onto other people, then they may have that to look forward to in the future. Very likely, actually.

Who are you talking about here? Why do you assume that someone is going to be "casual" about chicken pox or shingles?

Plus, shingles comes about mainly due to a degradation of the immune system leading to the virus reemerging in their body. It is going to be noticeable prior to being "casual" about it. And most of those who are going to get shingles is because they had chicken pox before there was a vaccine and it is definitely better to get chicken pox if you can't the vaccine for it (because perhaps there wasn't one available) younger rather than as an adult.

Plus, according to the CDC, anyone who has had chicken pox or has had the vaccine can get shingles, so it doesn't matter if you have a natural immunity (got it) or a vaccine immunity (got the shot) to chicken pox, either way can still put you at risk for shingles when you get older or if your immune system becomes compromised.

Shingles | Clinical Overview - Varicella Vaccine | Herpes Zoster | CDC

Anyone who has had varicella or gotten varicella vaccine can develop herpes zoster.

Tettsuo · Feb 9, 2015

I really think we should all dissuade ourselves from the idea that vaccines are 100% safe. They are not. Injecting anything into a 6-12 pound body that contains foreign matter (sometimes toxic substances) is not 100% safe.

There's a reason a vaccine court was created.

Vaccine Claims/Office of Special Masters | US Court of Federal Claims

JANFU · Feb 9, 2015

roguenuke said:
No, because of our healthcare system. Voluntarily vaccinating is certainly a good thing, however, that does not account for the fact that even most of those who do not get vaccinated and do get something like measles do not die. In fact, the majority of those who do die from something like measles die from a complication, something that can happen when a person gets so many different illnesses and ends up with a second one or already has something.

One example of a complication that can kill is pneumonia. My son had pneumonia last year. It really wasn't that hard for the doctor to check for it. He simply xrayed his chest (in fact, the doctor even said at first he didn't think it was pneumonia but was making sure, turned out it was). He prescribed antibiotics and sent him home. My sisters however had asthma attacks (one more severe than the other) along with pneumonia (again, one more severe than the other, but the opposite) happen at the same time. They both were in the hospital for a day or so and got better.

The thing I am pointing out is that these things do happen, and people should try to prevent them voluntarily as much as possible. But that should be voluntary. If you want them to do this, teach them why it benefits them, rather than trying to force them to do it. Many people do not like being forced into doing things, especially something they feel violates their beliefs. But with a little patience and education you may just actually convince them (especially those who are anti-vacs because of the belief that vaccines cause autism) that vaccines are safe and important.

List of some vaccinations - which ones should be voluntary or mandatory- or should all be voluntary.
Infants, Children, & Teens (birth - age 18) | Vaccines.gov

iangb · Feb 9, 2015

Tettsuo said:
I really think we should all dissuade ourselves from the idea that vaccines are 100% safe. They are not. Injecting anything into a 6-12 pound body that contains foreign matter (sometimes toxic substances) is not 100% safe.

There's a reason a vaccine court was created.

Vaccine Claims/Office of Special Masters | US Court of Federal Claims

...and as I've pointed out before (amongst many others), no-one is saying that anything in life is 100% safe. However, there are levels of risk - and in a single year in the US (on average since vaccinations began), for every person that has an adverse reaction to a vaccine, two are struck by lightning.

blackjack50 · Feb 9, 2015

roguenuke said:
Maybe I should have been more clear. I was referring to what I knew about and the cases I knew of as a child.

But people who are vaccinated still can get the measles. In fact many my age only have one of those shots so are at a higher risk.

Which means more reason to vaccinate kids. So people aren't spreading it. The measles was down to almost nil numbers when people were intelligent and vaccinating. The numbers for why you should vaccinate are there. There is no other logical reason to not vaccinate, barring allergies.

blackjack50 · Feb 9, 2015

Bodhisattva said:
Mumps is best known for the swelling of the cheeks and jaw that it causes, which is a result of swelling of the salivary glands. People who show symptoms usually recover after a week or two, but mumps can occasionally cause serious complications.

The most common complication is inflammation of the testicles (orchitis) in males who have reached puberty; rarely does this lead to fertility problems.

Other rare complications include:
•Inflammation of the brain and/or tissue covering the brain and spinal cord (encephalitis/meningitis)
•Inflammation of the ovaries (oophoritis) and/or breasts (mastitis) in females who have reached puberty
•Deafness

Mumps | Complications | CDC

MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)

What are the risks from MMR vaccine?

A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella. Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.

Mild Problems
• Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
• Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
• Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)

If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.

Moderate Problems
• Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
• Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
• Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
• Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
• Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
◦ Deafness
◦ Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
◦Permanent brain damage

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Side Effects

Damn... looks like the RARE reactions to the vaccine are far worse than the RARE reactions to Mumps itself... why take the ****ing shot then? :roll:

Because the vaccine is safer than getting the virus. Did you miss the part? I tell you what. Show me some legitimate doctors that argue that you just shouldn't get the vaccine?

minnie616 · Feb 9, 2015

From a Feb.5, 2015 Forbes article.

“In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead. The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.”

Those words were written by Roald Dahl, the author of Charlie and The Chocolate Factory and James the Giant Peach, about his seven-year-old daughter who died in 1962. In 1986, when he wrote them in an entreaty to his fellow Britons to vaccinate their children so that his little girl would not have died in vain, Dahl followed up with a taunt that played on his readers’ sense of national pride. “In America,” he wrote, “where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.”

I saw Dahl’s 621-word pamphlet shared dozens of times this weekend, on sites like Io9 and DailyKos and by friends on Facebook who are frustrated and upset that Dahl’s statement is no longer true – that America, which led the eradication of smallpox, has snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

As a result of the growing number of parents who are applying for exemptions from vaccinating their kids, an outbreak that started in Disneyland in California has now spread. There have been 102 cases of measles reported in 14 states since January 1, more than in all of 2012.

Read more :

Is The Disneyland Measles Outbreak A Turning Point In The Vaccine Wars? - Forbes

Bodi · Feb 9, 2015

stonewall50 said:
Because the vaccine is safer than getting the virus. Did you miss the part? I tell you what. Show me some legitimate doctors that argue that you just shouldn't get the vaccine?

There are a lot out there... but then you would just claim that they are not "legitimate", right?

Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

MrsMartinBlank

New member

Montecresto

minnie616

Montecresto

Misterveritis

Misterveritis

Misterveritis

Montecresto

Misterveritis

nota bene

Montecresto

Montecresto

MrsMartinBlank

New member

nota bene

beefheart

Ice Cream for Crow?

roguenuke

roguenuke

Tettsuo

Compassion is Strength

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

iangb

Lurker

blackjack50

blackjack50

minnie616

Bodi

Just waiting for my set...

Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles [W:1210]

Noblesse oblige

New member

New member

Ice Cream for Crow?

Compassion is Strength

Land by the Gulf Stream

Lurker

Just waiting for my set...

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