- Joined
- Feb 4, 2012
- Messages
- 25,566
- Reaction score
- 36,346
- Location
- American Refugee in Europe
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
We're not talking about businesses. The OP was stating that it appears that the rich are leaving Britain due to the tax laws. Now, if we were to assume that it is true, and that they have paid all of their due taxes, what do they owe their country if they decide to expatriate?Did you break any tax laws in the US before you left? Did you continue to reap the benefits of doing business here while avoiding paying for those benefits? No? Then clearly this doesn't apply to you. And technically, I never said anything about confiscation. I see that a few people went there, but I didn't mention in. If a business wants to use tricks and loopholes to avoid paying its due, then the nation that's being cheated should refuse to extend the protections of their laws to that business. That might manifest, in some cases, as confiscating what is left behind, but again, this is only a reaction to gross violations of the law and what amounts to massive theft from the people of a country. If you refuse to participate in the social contract, don't be surprised when no one else wants to extend its protections to you.
I'm not sure what the socialist view is on free trade, so maybe you can enlighten me. I for one believe that our citizens and our country should be able to enter into mutual contracts with citizens and foreigners alike, regardless of their allegiance or nationality.And an excellent response by the nation that is being abandoned would be to disallow any future business from those who do not hold any loyalty to the country that protected and benefited them for so long. If they want to cut and run, why shouldn't the UK or any other nation do the same? This is literally just reciprocating to these people what they have done in the first place.
Don't get saucy, you're one of the few people on this forum I respect.Pasch's wall of text crits you in the face.
So then why should they be allowed to take what they've gotten from the people of a country away from that country? If you do business in a country, you should be taxed by that country for the business you're doing. If you refuse to pay the taxes, then your business is now an illegal one.
Pasch's wall of text crits you in the face
We're not talking about businesses. The OP was stating that it appears that the rich are leaving Britain due to the tax laws. Now, if we were to assume that it is true, and that they have paid all of their due taxes, what do they owe their country if they decide to expatriate?
When I boarded a plane for Germany, all of my tax bills were paid, and considering the insanely high tax rate here, it certainly wasn't to avoid taxes. However, the concept remains the same, I do not owe my country anything that I have not already provided them.
I'm not sure what the socialist view is on free trade, so maybe you can enlighten me. I for one believe that our citizens and our country should be able to enter into mutual contracts with citizens and foreigners alike, regardless of their allegiance or nationality.
Your posts suggests that you only support economic trade with American citizens, but I know that probably isn't the case, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. What do you mean by that?
Don't get saucy, you're one of the few people on this forum I respect.
Patriotism is a fiction that I no longer believe in. My loyalty lies with my family and friends. I don't believe that I owe my society anything (in fact, as a veteran, I tend to believe that I've given my society back far more than I've received), so I find it hard to grasp the idea of owing a society something. I still conduct business in the US. I day trade in the US markets, and I am an electronics engineer for a small US based startup company. However, the fact that I am an American does not mean that the fruits of my labor belong to the masses. If I were to go into the woods on my property, cut down some trees, and make a table from that wood, I should be able to sell that table and keep the large majority of the profit. It is the sweat of my brow, and I feel I am entitled to it.I'm assuming that these people still plan to do business in the UK and benefit from it, even while avoiding the taxes they were previously paying. Part of this is an emotional reaction, that a person ought to show loyalty to their country, and not simply abandon it because you can't use it to get as rich as you'd like. That's some of my views on patriotism showing through. When you left the US, you no longer benefited from profits on business dealings in the US, right? Or at least not to this extent. You did not take a substantial portion of the country's wealth with you. You took no more than is truly your fair share. These guys want to take their fair share and a lot of other peoples' share.
I certainly agree that there is a wealth imbalance in this country. However, there is also my moral values that state that I believe that one is entitled to the fruits of one's labor. I don't see my community compensating me for the work I do. I see myself as entering into a contract where I provide work for an X amount of compensation. I can honestly sympathize with a lot of the socialistic ideals. I find it extremely heartbreaking that so many people must live in poverty and suffering. However at the same time, I can't justify unduly taking from others to give to these people.Think of it this way. You and I, middle class type people, put in to the community and obtain compensation at a fairly balanced rate. At the higher end, the compensation is front-loaded, and then to take all of that front-loaded benefit and refuse to put back is, I feel, a highly immoral thing to do. If these folks obtained their compensation at the balance that those who are not super rich do, then it wouldn't be a problem, since the community would have benefited just as much, simply on a larger scale. But the front-loading twists that. The exchange of benefit between the rich person and the rest of the community is thrown out of balance. It is that balance that I think needs to be restored.
I'm glad that we agree on free trade being a good thing. I'm sure this'll drive you crazy, but to quote Milton Friedman: "The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."I don't know of any specific socialist view on free trade. I know that many socialist groups decry our current ideas of free trade as essentially not free at all, but rather tilted to benefit those who are already powerful and wealthy. I agree with your position, that people of one nation should be able to contract with others without hindrance. The trouble is when multi-national corporations operate beyond the control of a government. Keep in mind that I view government as the instrument of the will of the people (you know, in an ideal world with no corruption), and in this case serves as a check on these powerful enterprises. Without that check, a corporation can essentially function as its own nation, making its own rules as it goes, only it is not beholden to the will of any population, merely to a small group of owners. It essentially becomes a rogue and predatory nation, acting no differently from Iran or Iraq towards their less powerful neighbors. When you act like a government, and wield the power of a government, but aren't responsible to anyone, then I see a lot of danger.
Of course.I didn't realize how long that post was until I submitted it. :2razz: Also thanks. ^_^
but I don't really expect you to know that. They're just buzzwords, right? And this is totally the same scenario as Nazi Germany, except for the part where these companies and their owners are violating the laws of the countries where they're doing business, and actually hurting people. But aside from that, demanding that profiteers actually compensate the nations where they build their wealth for all the benefits, services, and labor they obtain there is exactly like persecuting a religion.Also contradictory, as fascism and socialism are very different philosophies,
To summarize, the silly meme of the OP reduces to an admission that rich people have no love of any country and thus only care about making more and more money for themselves, no matter who that hurts (even though they are already fabulously rich and don't have to work another day of their lifes).
And somehow tea partiers think this is an argument for taxing the rich less!
You have to love rightwing memes. So out of touch.
To summarize, the silly meme of the OP reduces to an admission that rich people have no love of any country and thus only care about making more and more money for themselves, no matter who that hurts (even though they are already fabulously rich and don't have to work another day of their lifes).
And somehow tea partiers think this is an argument for taxing the rich less!
You have to love rightwing memes. So out of touch.
or you could simply say the rich are tired of giving money to political dictators that use that money to buy the votes of those who aren't rich for more golf games....vacations...and big tent parties at their home office...
Good excuse to have the very rich put down, I think, since they are happy in no human community.
So you think the UK and the US are dictatorships.
See, that's why nobody takes conservatives seriously anymore. You're intellectually bankrupt.
By the way, hate to get all logical on you and all, but how many millionaires DIDN'T leave the UK? Kind of need to know that, don't we, to evaluate whether the OP has any meaning besides more ridiculous tea party talking points.
The article said they are going to Australia and I'm sure there tax code is complex and the millionaires must see going there is to their benefit.Their must be some reason they are going there instead of coming here since on the surface our tax seems lower. One thing for sure they are leaving the UK in droves and draining its coffers by billions, their is a lesson to be learned here. Yes you really can kill the goose that lays the golden egg and you can do so without firing a shot.
Its bull****.
The "millionaires" did not leave, they used loopholes to avoid taxes. You see, you can be registered in places like Gibraltar, Gurnsey and still live full time in the UK and pay no taxes. Add to that, the ton of pro-millionaire tax loop holes there are, then well.
I read a story not too long ago about how there is a very large number of expensive houses on the market in the UK. Millionaires are leaving and selling their houses. So, is your contention then that they are carrying this charade far enough where they give up their nice house to go live in a tenement?
I think the OP makes a strong argument that the old saying that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again is a complete bunch of crap. There are people who will fall for the same dumb trick over and over and over again. Totally useless sources such as The Telegraph run stories such as this one like clockwork. Their numbers went down, so millionaires must be moving out of Oregon or New York City or Maryland or the UK on account of high taxes. No, they aren't. They are all still right where they were just a few years ago. They simply don't all make a million dollars or pounds anymore because of the Great Bush Recession. Poor people can and do pull up stakes when things are going particularly poorly, but wealthy people have roots. Like corporations, they do not go bouncing around the globe on the basis of a few extra cents worth of taxes. Rich people are wealthy enough not to have to care about that. Rich people care about the business, social, financial, familial, cultural and charitable networks that they have built up in an area over the years and are loathe to give those up. That's how the real world works. People who fell for the OP at face value seriously need to consider installing more RAM.I think that the OP makes a strong argument that the rich are traitors...
Nowhere, Their incomes went down. Income is like a pyramid. At any level, most of the people above that level are only a little above it. A major economic downturn (particularly one defined by collapsing asset markets) will move lots of people from an income of a little above a million dollars or pounds to an income a little below a million dollars or pounds. This creates a standing invitation for some dishonest propaganda mill to come along and claim that millionaires are headed like lemmings out of the country because of its high taxes. It's total bunk, the moronic anecdotes that a few people are apt now to tell notwithstanding.
I think the OP makes a strong argument that the old saying that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again is a complete bunch of crap. There are people who will fall for the same dumb trick over and over and over again. Totally useless sources such as The Telegraph run stories such as this one like clockwork. Their numbers went down, so millionaires must be moving out of Oregon or New York City or Maryland or the UK on account of high taxes. No, they aren't. They are all still right where they were just a few years ago. They simply don't all make a million dollars or pounds anymore because of the Great Bush Recession. Poor people can and do pull up stakes when things are going particularly poorly, but wealthy people have roots. Like corporations, they do not go bouncing around the globe on the basis of a few extra cents worth of taxes. Rich people are wealthy enough not to have to care about that. Rich people care about the business, social, financial, familial, cultural and charitable networks that they have built up in an area over the years and are loathe to give those up. That's how the real world works. People who fell for the OP at face value seriously need to consider installing more RAM.
So then why are these people still allowed to benefit from their earnings in the UK? If they leave to avoid taxes in their home country, then they should not be allowed to profit from any holdings they have there. It's that simple. If you want to benefit, you have to put back in. If you abandon your nation, then your nation takes back everything it gave you, and people retain everything they built to help you get rich. Nations and the people in them are not for plundering by a few powerful vultures.
This is part of the trend for the upper upper class to remove themselves from the community of the rest of the world, employing hush hush banks in one nation, holding companies in another, and hiring workers in yet another. These people have no loyalty to anyone but themselves, and clearly have no loyalty to any of the people they're interacting with along the way. No nation should house or protect them, and their holdings should be sacrificed. If they won't show loyalty to anyone else, then no one should show loyalty to them.
Another bit of tumbleweed blowing through.Thats twice you said that, & twice you made it up.
Where are the sources and links? Which ones document that "tax increases" were the cause of whatever you think the bundle of other facts & statistics were. Nobody is impressed by the fact that you could TYPE those words, you know.Youre missing important facts like the increase in foreign registeted directors of companies, who used to be registered British & a whole bundle of other facts & statistics that are endlessly rolled out in papers, on news bulletins & political shows etc.
No, not all. Some of them died and left no more than a million dollars or pounds to any individual heir. Some of them actually did move abroad -- for dozens of different reasons all in all, taxes being not significant among them. But most of the missing simply lost enough ground to the effects of the Great Bush Recession that they were not above the preselected line anymore. There will be an inexplicable in-migration of millionaires if the British economy should pick up steam again. That won't have anything to do with taxes either.They didnt all vanish to just below £1,000,000
There aren't any reliable data for 2012 yet, but it wouldn't be surprising given that almost all the income recovery in the US since the recession ended in June 2009 has gone to the already wealthy.Actually long term trend is that although many have left the country, between 2008 & 2012 the total number of millionaires has risen to a new high.
You might need to pay better attention to what news you read.That was in the news the other week as well.
Especially if you're The Telegraph, one of the least reliable news sources in the western world.Pesky thing facts...
Another bit of tumbleweed blowing through.
Where are the sources and links?
Which ones document that "tax increases" were the cause of whatever you think the bundle of other facts & statistics were. Nobody is impressed by the fact that you could TYPE those words, you know.
No, not all. Some of them died and left no more than a million dollars or pounds to any individual heir. Some of them actually did move abroad -- for dozens of different reasons all in all, taxes being not significant among them.
But most of the missing simply lost enough ground to the effects of the Great Bush Recession that they were not above the preselected line anymore. There will be an inexplicable in-migration of millionaires if the British economy should pick up steam again. That won't have anything to do with taxes either.
There aren't any reliable data for 2012 yet, but it wouldn't be surprising given that almost all the income recovery in the US since the recession ended in June 2009 has gone to the already wealthy.
You might need to pay better attention to what news you read.
Especially if you're The Telegraph, one of the least reliable news sources in the western world.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?