• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump Seeking Control of Corporations is Remarkably Fascist

Partial nationalization is socialist, not fascist. Yes it's terrible, but deep down Trump is just another NYC liberal.

So you admit the fascists weren’t socialists and every time you have tried to claim Hitler and Mussolini were actually socialists, you were lying?
 
So you admit the fascists weren’t socialists and every time you have tried to claim Hitler and Mussolini were actually socialists, you were lying?

I edited my post. It's more socialist than fascist. The two ideologies overlap, a lot.
 
I edited my post. It's more socialist than fascist. The two ideologies overlap, a lot.

When Hitler had partial government ownership and control of companies, you said Germany was actually socialist.

Why are you moving your goalposts from your long standing positions? Do you have no principles?
 
Fascists allied themselves with the economic elites, promising to protect their social status and to suppress any potential socialist revolution. In exchange, the elites were asked to subordinate their interests to a broader nationalist project, and thus fascist economic policies generally protect inequality and privilege while also featuring an important role for state intervention in the economy. An important aspect of fascist economies was economic dirigism, meaning an economy where the government often subsidizes favorable companies and exerts strong directive influence over investment, as opposed to having a merely regulatory role. In general, fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state.

Hitler called his political party "National Socialist", but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism", saying that "Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not". At a later time, Hitler said: "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether. ... What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism". He also expressed a wish that he had called his party "social revolutionary" instead.

"[O]nce Mussolini acquired a firmer hold of power ... laissez-faire was progressively abandoned in favour of government intervention, free trade was replaced by protection[ism] and economic objectives were increasingly couched in exhortations and military terminology". De Stefani was forced to resign in 1925 because his policy of free trade was opposed by many Italian business leaders, who favored protectionism and subsidies to insulate domestic business from international competition. In 1926, Mussolini gave an impassioned speech demanding monetary policies to halt inflation and stabilize the Italian currency (the lira). He also took the final step of officially banning any kind of strike action. From 1927 to 1929, under the leadership of the new Finance Minister Alberto Beneduce, the Italian economy experienced a period of deflation, driven by the government's monetary policies

It's the neo-mercantile system that China runs, and MAGA commies love China's system of government.
 
Voluntary socialism can exist. The Kibbutz movement is a good example.

No, you are claiming government control is the defining thing for something being socialist.

So “voluntary socialism” can’t exist in your model.

Except we know that isn’t really your model. It’s just where you move the goalposts to with the Nazis/fascists so you don’t have to admit they were capitalists, with the means of production privately owned.
 
Fascists allied themselves with the economic elites, promising to protect their social status and to suppress any potential socialist revolution. In exchange, the elites were asked to subordinate their interests to a broader nationalist project, and thus fascist economic policies generally protect inequality and privilege while also featuring an important role for state intervention in the economy. An important aspect of fascist economies was economic dirigism, meaning an economy where the government often subsidizes favorable companies and exerts strong directive influence over investment, as opposed to having a merely regulatory role. In general, fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state.

Hitler called his political party "National Socialist", but he was clear to point out that his interpretation of socialism "has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism", saying that "Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not". At a later time, Hitler said: "Socialism! That is an unfortunate word altogether. ... What does socialism really mean? If people have something to eat and their pleasures, then they have their socialism". He also expressed a wish that he had called his party "social revolutionary" instead.

"[O]nce Mussolini acquired a firmer hold of power ... laissez-faire was progressively abandoned in favour of government intervention, free trade was replaced by protection[ism] and economic objectives were increasingly couched in exhortations and military terminology". De Stefani was forced to resign in 1925 because his policy of free trade was opposed by many Italian business leaders, who favored protectionism and subsidies to insulate domestic business from international competition. In 1926, Mussolini gave an impassioned speech demanding monetary policies to halt inflation and stabilize the Italian currency (the lira). He also took the final step of officially banning any kind of strike action. From 1927 to 1929, under the leadership of the new Finance Minister Alberto Beneduce, the Italian economy experienced a period of deflation, driven by the government's monetary policies

Its interesting Hitler never distinguished between bourgeois property and personal property despite that being a major contention between marx and proudhon.
 
No, you are claiming government control is the defining thing for something being socialist.

No, it's public control, but ninety-nine percent of the time that means government control.

He was an extreme collectivist, a revolutionary, and he supported public control over the means of production.

Socialism is public control over the means of production. Like it or not, that was the case in nazi germany. Even after the "privatization" government control over the economy increased.


It's an indisputable fact that the more a country embraces public economic control and central planning, the more its living standards deteriorate. That isn't theory, it's history.

Food is one of the most essential goods in any country. Should food production be under public control?

What makes NK socialist is public control over the means of production.

Socialism is public control over the means of production. There are many varieties. Some are revolutionary, some are fabian. Some are democratic, some are not. But one thing they all have in common is public control over the means of production.

See?

So “voluntary socialism” can’t exist in your model.

Sure it can, the problem for you is that nobody wants it. It has to be imposed on people by force.

Except we know that isn’t really your model. It’s just where you move the goalposts to with the Nazis/fascists so you don’t have to admit they were capitalists, with the means of production privately owned.

The Nazis despised both capitalism and free markets. Hitler’s vision was an autarkic germany - economically self-sufficient and insulated from global trade, just like Kim's north korea today.
 
No, it's public control, but ninety-nine percent of the time that means government control.














See?



Sure it can, the problem for you is that nobody wants it. It has to be imposed on people by force.



The Nazis despised both capitalism and free markets. Hitler’s vision was an autarkic germany - economically self-sufficient and insulated from global trade, just like Kim's north korea today.

So then you are back to the fascists being socialists. Why did you lie earlier and try to claim fascism and socialism are different?
 
So then you are back to the fascists being socialists. Why did you lie earlier and try to claim fascism and socialism are different?

Because they are different. Fascism is nationalist, while Marxism is (supposedly) internationalist.
 
Because they are different. Fascism is nationalist, while Marxism is (supposedly) internationalist.

Did you hurt your back moving that goalpost? The word “Marxism” wasn’t anywhere in my post and that’s the first time you’ve mentioned it in this thread.

When the Nazis filled the Waffen SS with international volunteers from all over Europe, was that Nationalist?
 
Did you hurt your back moving that goalpost? The word “Marxism” wasn’t anywhere in my post and that’s the first time you’ve mentioned it in this thread.

We are talking about different kinds of socialism. There isn't just one kind, there are many varieties. Do you disagree?

When the Nazis filled the Waffen SS with international volunteers from all over Europe, was that Nationalist?

You're right, it was inconsistent. Name me a government that isn't.
 
We are talking about different kinds of socialism. There isn't just one kind, there are many varieties. Do you disagree?



You're right, it was inconsistent. Name me a government that isn't.

You were the one saying fascism wasn’t socialism earlier in this thread.
 
I know the left hates capitalism, but who knew they’d characterize owning shares in a publicly traded company as “fascist?” 😂
Wow you really fell off the reality world with this post
 
Back
Top Bottom