Trump and the cons want to bring back Confederate statues and the name of military bases

[WisconIndependent]

They say it is part of Southern history. I say, so is slavery part of that same Southern history, since the states that seceded from the union fought a war to keep it and now they are attempting to "whitewash" or eliminate from not only history but in every way possible including museums. Trump and his cronies say slavery is too much a negative and should be placed where the truth about it can be seen. I guess next they will say that the Native Americans gladly gave their land to the white immigrants, really?

 

[EnchantedMuggle]

I'm on the fence about things like this.

Obviously I think Confederates were solid straight-up pieces of shit.

However, it IS a part of history. Not just Southern history but American history as a whole. I may see statues differently than others do, though. I don't always see statues as things that automatically laud their likenesses. I just see them as physical snapshots in time. And I don't like getting uncomfortably close to physical censorship of this kind.

 

[Jessie C]

They say it is part of Southern history. I say, so is slavery part of that same Southern history, since the states that seceded from the union fought a war to keep it and now they are attempting to "whitewash" or eliminate from not only history but in every way possible including museums. Trump and his cronies say slavery is too much a negative and should be placed where the truth about it can be seen. I guess next they will say that the Native Americans gladly gave their land to the white immigrants, really?

Here's a novel idea. And I say this not knowing ONE single person; white, black, hispanic, oriental, blue, pruple pink whoever.....who would EVER say slavery was good....

The confederates truly deserve a REDUCED, DISCREDITED, DIMINISHED AND DISHONORED place in the history of our country. Give them recognition....a fraction of the size of everyhing that is right..

By the way, recognition isn't always good....and in this case is will NEVER be good.

 

[Individual]

A part of Democrat party history have anything to do with it?

 

[spud_meister]

I'm on the fence about things like this.

Obviously I think Confederates were solid straight-up pieces of shit.

However, it IS a part of history. Not just Southern history but American history as a whole. I may see statues differently than others do, though. I don't always see statues as things that automatically laud their likenesses. I just see them as physical snapshots in time. And I don't like getting uncomfortably close to physical censorship of this kind.

How about keeping any names and statues contemporaneous with the individuals they're depicting, and getting rid of the ones done during Jim Crow that are intentionally racist?

 

[Loulit01]

Imagine Black people walking by a statue of Robert E. Lee. Go ahead, imagine if you're Black and there's a big fancy statue of Bobby Lee on a beautiful horse, in his fine uniform, raised on a platform high over you.

If a statue of Lincoln is meant to honor Lincoln, how is a statue of Lee not meant to honor Lee? If a statue of Grant is meant to honor Grant, how is a statue of Stonewall Jackson not meant to honor Stonewall Jackson? Benedict Arnold is part of our history. We remember him without any statues. Lee, and Jackson are much more evil and damaging traitors than Benedict Arnold was.

Must be great to be white in America. Statues of people who fought for slavery aren't racist. Wow. Just....

 

[Along Came Jones]

They say it is part of Southern history. I say, so is slavery part of that same Southern history, since the states that seceded from the union fought a war to keep it and now they are attempting to "whitewash" or eliminate from not only history but in every way possible including museums. Trump and his cronies say slavery is too much a negative and should be placed where the truth about it can be seen. I guess next they will say that the Native Americans gladly gave their land to the white immigrants, really?

The history of history is in its continuous revision and rebalancing. Whitewashing? That's why 160 years after the surrender we're still rhetorically refighting the Civil War?

 

[Along Came Jones]

Imagine Black people walking by a statue of Robert E. Lee. Go ahead, imagine if you're Black and there's a big fancy statue of Bobby Lee on a beautiful horse, in his fine uniform, raised on a platform high over you.

If a statue of Lincoln is meant to honor Lincoln, how is a statue of Lee not meant to honor Lee? If a statue of Grant is meant to honor Grant, how is a statue of Stonewall Jackson not meant to honor Stonewall Jackson? Benedict Arnold is part of our history. We remember him without any statues. Lee, and Jackson are much more evil and damaging traitors than Benedict Arnold was.

Must be great to be white in America. Statues of people who fought for slavery aren't racist. Wow. Just....

What's the difficulty? Maybe I look at Lincoln and see someone who should have heeded the copperheads rather than plunge the land into butchery and mayhem. Or look at Grant and see someone who abided Sherman's war crimes.

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

 

[Loulit01]

What's the difficulty? Maybe I look at Lincoln and see someone who should have heeded the copperheads rather than plunge the land into butchery and mayhem. Or look at Grant and see someone who abided Sherman's war crimes.

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

Imagine Black people walking by a statue of Robert E. Lee. Go ahead, imagine if you're Black and there's a big fancy statue of Bobby Lee on a beautiful horse, in his fine uniform, raised on a platform high over you.

 

[Along Came Jones]

Imagine Black people walking by a statue of Robert E. Lee. Go ahead, imagine if you're Black and there's a big fancy statue of Bobby Lee on a beautiful horse, in his fine uniform, raised on a platform high over you.

I believe I just did that:

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

 

[Michael Cole]

What's the difficulty? Maybe I look at Lincoln and see someone who should have heeded the copperheads rather than plunge the land into butchery and mayhem. Or look at Grant and see someone who abided Sherman's war crimes.

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

Maybe there really are racist scum in the USA. That's the difficulty.

 

[Loulit01]

I believe I just did that:

Yes. I'm sure you think you did

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

Because they need a statue of Lee to understand that.

I give up.

 

[Along Came Jones]

Maybe there really are racist scum in the USA. That's the difficulty.

Sure, they are most certainly among us. And they come in many flavors. Fortunately, not as many as some folks presume.

 

[Along Came Jones]

Yes. I'm sure you think you did

Because they need a statue of Lee to understand that.

I give up.

Sorry I did not dance to your tune.

 

[Michael Cole]

Yes. I'm sure you think you did

Because they need a statue of Lee to understand that.

I give up.

Yes, apparently, blacks need memorials to slavers to know they're being discriminated against.

I mean, if it weren't for those confederate memorials, blacks wouldn't even know "driving while black" was a thing. Praise Dixie. For the good of the blacks.,

 

[Along Came Jones]

Yes, apparently, blacks need memorials to slavers to know they're being discriminated against.

I mean, if it weren't for those confederate memorials, blacks wouldn't even know "driving while black" was a thing. Praise Dixie. For the good of the blacks.,

Go back to the scenario @Loulit01 set up at post #6.

It asked to imagine a response to existing memorial statues. There's nothing about what Blacks or Whites or anybody else needs by way of symbols to draw out feelings of honor or contempt.

 

[Michael Cole]

Go back to the scenario @Loulit01 set up at post #6.

It asked to imagine a response to existing memorial statues. There's nothing about what Blacks or Whites or anybody else needs by way of symbols to draw out feelings of honor or contempt.

Yes, I've read the thread.

Hypothetical responses to memorials of slavers don't change the fact that these are indeed, memorials to slavers.

Image a father telling his young daughter, "This memorial to Jeffery Epstein is here to remind us of the evils of child sex trafficking."

Not much of an argument.

Statues have been used as propaganda since ancient times. Abu Simbal was constructed by Ramesses II in the 13th century BCE to signify power to the Nubians to the south.

These confederate memorials are not historical vehicles. They are propaganda in the exact same vein as Abu Simbal. They were meant to show power to blacks in the south. Trying to rationalize their use is a losing proposition.

 

[Along Came Jones]

Yes, I've read the thread.

Hypothetical responses to memorials of slavers don't change the fact that these are indeed, memorials to slavers.

Image a father telling his young daughter, "This memorial to Jeffery Epstein is here to remind us of the evils of child sex trafficking."

Not much of an argument.

Statues have been used as propaganda since ancient times. Abu Simbal was constructed by Ramesses II in the 13th century BCE to signify power to the Nubians to the south.

These confederate memorials are not historical vehicles. They are propaganda in the exact same vein as Abu Simbal. They were meant to show power to blacks in the south. Trying to rationalize their use is a losing proposition.

Interesting. First, nothing in my hypothetical response denied that those statues were memorials to (defenders of) slavers: Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

You somehow mockingly transfigured that to mean All Blacks must need a statue to remind them how horrible was chattel slavery. That was certainly a deviation from the conditions set in the hypothetical request. All I needed to do was imagine a contrary response.

Second, there are no memorial statues celebrating an alleged criminal sexual predator like Jeffrey Epstein. The most interesting thing about that hypothetical is who do you think would erect it and where would they place it so that a father might use it to school a daughter concerning sexual predators? In that circumstance the argument would make itself.

Third, and this is the most relevant point, the original purpose for constructing these memorials is separate from their present day meaning. You use Rames II's temple at Abu Simbal as a projection of power and dominance over Nubia. True enough. But why then did UNSECO designate it a World Heritage Site. When Egypt built the Aswan Dam why did they take care to cut up and move the statues to safe ground? It certainly had nothing to do with the submissiveness of Nubia.

 

[Juin]

Imagine Black people walking by a statue of Robert E. Lee. Go ahead, imagine if you're Black and there's a big fancy statue of Bobby Lee on a beautiful horse, in his fine uniform, raised on a platform high over you.

If revulsion is what you have in mind why should a black person feel any different walking by the statues of Plantation Massas Tom Jeff'son and George Washington? Should monuments to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be taken down?

 

[Juin]

I believe I just did that:

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

I wonder how white kids feel when they walk by the Colosseum in Rome. Or by monuments to that industrial scale slaver Julius Caesar. They must need therapists afterwards

 

[CaughtInThe]

Because they are traitors to the USA. Their real allegiance is to White Supremacy.

Praise Jesus.

 

[Master Debator]

What's the difficulty? Maybe I look at Lincoln and see someone who should have heeded the copperheads rather than plunge the land into butchery and mayhem. Or look at Grant and see someone who abided Sherman's war crimes.

Maybe I'm a Black guy who looks up at your Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues and use them to tell my children the tragedy of misbegotten allegiance to state over country and the harsh barbarity of slavery.

It's not the walking by I have a problem with, its my tax dollars going to maintain the veneration of white supremacists thats I have a problem with.

 

[Along Came Jones]

It's not the walking by I have a problem with, its my tax dollars going to maintain the veneration of white supremacists thats I have a problem with.

That's a fair objection.

 

[Master Debator]

If revulsion is what you have in mind why should a black person feel any different walking by the statues of Plantation Massas Tom Jeff'son and George Washington? Should monuments to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington be taken down?

Yes they should. Why should my tax dollars go to maintaining monuments to people who would of seen me as property?

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I'm on the fence about things like this.

Obviously I think Confederates were solid straight-up pieces of shit.

However, it IS a part of history. Not just Southern history but American history as a whole. I may see statues differently than others do, though. I don't always see statues as things that automatically laud their likenesses. I just see them as physical snapshots in time. And I don't like getting uncomfortably close to physical censorship of this kind.

This issue has been discussed/debated ad nauseam.

The vast majority of Confederate statues and monuments erected in southern states were put in place decades after the Civil War, during the Jim Crow era.

Their purpose was to perpetuate the “lost cause” myth and to act as constant visual reminders to black folks of their place.

Leaving them in place is akin to leave Nazi flags and posters hanging after the end of WW2.

IMO, all Confederate statues/monuments should be removed from places of honor (parks and cemeteries) and either destroyed, or placed in museums with accompanying placards denoting their own history.