This is very important .... The enemies of Jesus claim that Jesus is blashpheming by making himself Equal to God .... How does Jesus respond? He could have responeded saying "I AM Equal to God," he could have quoted a scripture referencing himself as Yahweh. He didn't.
The scripture Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6 I say, “You are gods,
children of the Most High, all of you; in the same scripture it says God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: Refering to Angels as Gods.
Jesus quotes a scripture putting himself in a catageory of a god NOT in the same category of Yahweh, he puts himself in the category of angels and human judges who (like moses) can be called god to a lesser extent .... Now if the enemies of Jesus were caliming he was yahweh, how is quoting that scripture an answer? Infact he goes on to say that he is claiming to be GOD'S SON, doing the Works of the father (the only true God).
So God is the Head of Jesus. What's so surprising about that? Why wouldn't the Father be superior to His Son? Didn't Christ teach that we should love and obey the Father and He showed us through His example as an obedient Son who glorified His Father? What kind of an example would He'd given if He didn't bow to the will of His Father? Let's not forget that Jesus is ADONAI TSIDKENU - The Lord our Righteousness, which is another Hebrew name of God.
Jer 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called,
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
John 10:30
[30 I and the Father are one.”
John 10:30 proves my claim!
Psalm 82 does not refer to angels. It refers to judges, magistrates or those who have authority over men. When Jesus quoted Psalm 82, He was reminding them that the Law refers to mere men as "gods."
Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?
John 17
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
On to the Shema,
it being in 3? parts pointing to a trinity, I hope that isn't an argument, I don't see how it could be.
Jeremiah 23:5,6 is easy, he is called Yahweh our righteousness ….
You know what else is Called Yahweh our righteousness? Jerusalem in Jeremiah 33
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”
But you missed my point. Jesus AGREED with the Jewish scribes statement of the Shema,
Echad means ONE, when I say 2 become one that makes sense, that does'nt mean when I say "there is one person over there" or "I have one mother" I'm secretly saying that I have many people that act as one mother.
About the "Us" part in Genesis 1 and 11, in Chapter 11, Yahweh was with angles and Yahweh often sent his angel to take care of his buisiness. Now chapter 1, lets look at the whole context.
26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind(Adam, singular) in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[d] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
27 So God created humankind(Adam, singular) in his image,
in the image of God he created them;[f]
male and female he created them.
Talking about Genesis 11:6 saying that "the people are one" as having any relevance to the argument about whether Yahweh has 2 or more persons within him is nonsense. It means what it says, the people are one, just the way you would say that in english, it doesn't mean ontologically at all, it isn't some code or something.
And Jesus explains this later in John 17
11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
So now what, are all the apostles Yahweh too?
John 17
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Why wouldn't He agree? Jesus, the Spirit and Yahweh as One. There is indeed One God.
You may not agree with it but apparently, Echad - according to Hebrew translation - can also mean unity in diversity. Your analogy about a mother does not make sense. As for having one "person" here and the other "person" there....haven't you heard, God is omnipresent - meaning God is present everywhere at the same time? God can do anything.
Proverbs 8 is the personification of wisdom in an abstract concept. Poets, and biblical writers have used personification in their writings. Example : “Sin is crouching at the door” (Gen. 4:7 esv). “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other” (Ps. 85:10 kjv). “Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:15 esv). My personal favorite is Zechariah’s vision of a woman named Wickedness sitting inside a cereal container (Zech. 5:6–8).
How can you know when a poet has used personification? It is not complicated: whenever a poet attributes human qualities to some- thing inanimate, often an abstraction, he or she has used personification.
This takes us back to Proverbs 8. The main subject of Proverbs chapters 1–9 is wisdom, which is an abstract quality or character trait rather than a person, but wisdom is treated as a woman from the first chapter right through chapter 9. Wisdom is portrayed as a woman of dazzling attractiveness and virtue, who teaches in the marketplace of the town (1:20), who is romantically embraced (4:8–9), who can be addressed as “my sister” (7:4), who utters a long speech commending herself to the public (chap. 8), and who builds a house and invites people to an alluring banquet (9:1–6).Who Is Wisdom in Proverbs 8? | Christian Research Institute
As for Adoni, I've explained about that. It is also a Hebrew Name of God.
Remember, Jesus is about to leave, so He prays for them....so that they (Apostles) may be united.
Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
This site gives a sketch of implicit and explicit Christology.
DOES THE BIBLE SAY JESUS IS GOD?
Part I: An Outline of the New Testament Testimony to the Deity of Christ
This outline does not purport to be in any sense an exhaustive analysis of the NT witness to Christ's deity. Rather it is a sketch of one approach - a rather traditional approach - to this theme. Other complementary or supplementary approaches abound, such as the creative treatment of Jesus' implicit claim to deity in his parables by P. B. Payne or R. T. France's documentation from the Synoptic Gospels of Jesus' assumption of the role of Yahweh (Jesus and the Old Testament p.150-59). For a brief discussion of the NT verses that seem, at first sight, to call Jesus' divinity into question, see R. E. Brown, "Does the New Testament Call Jesus God?" (Reflections 6-10).
IMPLICIT CHRISTOLOGY
1. Divine functions performed by Jesus:
a. In relation to the universe:
(1) Creator (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2)
(2) Sustainer (1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3)
(3) Author of life (John 1:4; Acts 3:15)
(4) Ruler (Matt. 28:18; Rom. 14:9; Rev. 1:6)
b. In relation to human beings:
(1) Healing the sick (Mark 1:32-34; Acts 3:6; 10:38)
(2) Teaching authoritatively (Mark 1:21-22; 13:31)
(3) Forgiving sins (Mark 2:1-12; Luke 24:47; Acts 6:31; Col. 3:13)
(4) Granting salvation or imparting eternal life (Acts 4: 12; Rom. 10:12-14)
(5) Dispensing the Spirit (Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 33)
(6) Raising the dead (Luke 7:11-17; John 5:21; 6:40)
(7) Exercising judgment (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:19-29; Acts 10:42; 1 Cor. 4:4-6)
2. Divine status claimed by or accorded to Jesus:
a. In relation to his Father:
(1) Possessor of divine attributes (John 1:4; 10:30; 21:17; Eph. 4:10; Col. 1:19; 2:9)
(2) Eternally existent (John 1:1; 8:58; 12:41; 17:5; 1 Cor. 10:4; Phil. 2:6; Heb. 11:26; 13:8; Jude 5)
(3) Equal in dignity (Matt. 28:19; John 5:23; 2 Cor. 13:14; Rev. 22:13; cf. 21:6)
(4) Perfect revealer (John 1:18; 14:9; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:1-3)
(5) Embodiment of truth (John 1:9, 14; 6:32; 14:6; Rev. 3:7,14)
(6) Joint possessor of the kingdom (Eph. 5:5; Rev. 11:15), churches (Rom. 16:16), Spirit (Rom. 8:9; Phil. 1:19), temple (Rev. 21:2), divine name (Matt 28:19; cf. Rev. 14:1), and throne (Rev. 22:1, 3)
b. In relation to human beings:
(1) Recipient of praise (Mat 21:16-16; Eph. 6:19; 1 Tim. 1:12; Rev. 5:8-14)
(2) Recipient of prayer (Acts 1:24; 7:59-60; 9:10-17,21; 22:16,19; 1 Cor. 1:2; 16:22; 2 Cor. 12:8)
(3) Object of saving faith (John 14:1; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Rom. 10:8-13)
(4) Object of worship (Matt 14:33; 28:9,17; John 5:23; 20:28; Phil 2:10-11; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 5:8-12)
(5) Joint source of blessing (1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; 1 Thess. 3:11; 2 Thess. 2:16)
(6) Object of doxologies (2 Tim 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5b-6; 5:13)
B. EXPLICIT CHRISTOLOGY
1. Old Testament passages referring to Yahweh applied to Jesus:
a. Character of Yahweh
(Exod. 3:14 and Isa 43:11 alluded to in John 8:68; Ps. 101:27-28 LXX 1MT 102:28-291 quoted in Heb. 1:11-12; Isa 44:6 alluded to in Rev. 1:17)
b. Holiness of Yahweh
(Isa 8:12-13 [cf. 29:23] quoted in 1 Pet.3:14-15)
c. Descriptions of Yahweh
(Ezek. 43:2 and Dan. 10:6-6 alluded to in Rev. 1:13-16)
d. Worship of Yahweh
(Isa 45:23 alluded to in Phil. 2:10-11; Deut. 32:43 LXX and Ps. 96:7 LXX [MT 97:7] quoted in Heb. 1:6)
e. Work of Yahweh in creation
(Ps. 101:26 LXX [MT 102:27] quoted in Heb. 1:10)
f. Salvation of Yahweh
(Joel 2:32 [MT 3:5] quoted in Rom. 10:13; cf. Acts 2:21; Isa 40:3 quoted in Matt. 3:3)
g. Trustworthiness of Yawheh
(Isa 28:16 quoted in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pet. 2:6)
h. Judgment of Yahweh
(Isa 6:10 alluded to in John 12:41; Isa 8:14 quoted in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8)
i. Triumph of Yahweh
(Ps. 68:18 [MT v. 19] quoted in Eph. 4:8)
2. Divine titles claimed by or applied to Jesus:
a. Son of Man (Matt. 16:28; 24:30; Mark 8:38; 14:62-64; Acts 7:56)
b. Son of God (Matt.11:27; Mark 15:39; John 1:18; Rom. 1:4; Gal.4:4; Heb. 1:2)
c. Messiah (Matt. 16:16; Mark 14:61; John 20:31)
d. Lord (Mark 12:36-37; John 20:28; Rom. 10:9, 1 Cor. 8:6-6; 12:3; 16:22; Phil. 2:11; 1 Pet. 2:3; 3:15)
e. Alpha and Omega (Rev. 22:13; cf. 1:8; 21:6, of the Lord God)
f. God (John 1:1,18; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1)
Material above is taken from Murray J. Harris, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992, ISBN 0-8010-4370-0
Part II: A Scriptural Glossary of the Names, Titles and Attributes Demonstrating
That Jesus and Yahweh Are One
more.....
Does the Bible say Jesus is God?
Am I supposed to go in and debunk EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE verses which tosca just copied and pasted from a website? I mean I could easily do it, but it would take a long time, and we were supposed to CITE the scriptures we we're arguing for, this isn't really honest debating, anyone can google a website and copy and paste pages.
(BTW the so-called Exodus 3:14 to John 8:58 link only works if the words "ho on" (as used for "I am" in exodus 3:14 are the same as "ego eimi" which are the words for "I am in John 8:58, I if this is the type of argument that this website uses then it's gonna be damn easy to debunk it all).
I again, I'm not arguing against a website, if you want to make the arguments make them your self and individually., quote the scripture.
Copying and pasting a MOUNTAIN of text (of bad arguments) and expecting me to go through each one in just a few posts is dishonest.
(BTW the so-called Exodus 3:14 to John 8:58 link only works if the words "ho on" (as used for "I am" in exodus 3:14 are the same as "ego eimi" which are the words for "I am in John 8:58, I if this is the type of argument that this website uses then it's gonna be damn easy to debunk it all).
Let's deal with ego eimi. John 8:58 is an absolute.
Here, it's a long read again....but it explains about that.
Translation of ego eimi
Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White
Look, I'm not going to debate on the basis of your own words or understanding alone. I think your previous posts justify my opinion.
Our debate is about whether the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh. How do you supposed we'll tackle that argument? THROUGH BIBLICAL VERSES.
It couldn't be helped that there is a "MOUNTAIN" of BIBLICAL VERSES - not simply texts - but referenced verses that shows that indeed the Bible shows Jesus is Yahweh.
I stated in my opening post:
Using the Bible itself, I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh.
Why should it matter if my reference is copied and pasted? All it does is list all the relevant biblical verses in an organized manner that we may easily understand how they are related to our discussion.
If you're going to argue that the Bible does not show Jesus is Yahweh, you ought to read the verses mentioned - after all, they are the proofs being presented. The onus is on you to prove them wrong.
Surely you've got Biblical verses lined up to support your position, or you should know by now the verses that are being cited to prove not only the deity of Jesus, but Him being Yahweh as well.
Of course, there's a ton of biblical verses that shows Jesus is Yahweh - because that's the fact! :lol:
It matters if it's copied and pasted, because you arn't making the actual arguments, the verses you cite don't ACTUALLY show that Jesus is Yahweh, you claim they do, that is why in the beggining we agreed that we would QUOTE the verses, and you can actually show HOW they show that Jesus is Yahweh.
About the ego eimi thing .... Exodus 3:14
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”(Ego Eimi Ho on) He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I am (Ho On) has sent me to you.’”
When he uses I am by itself it's translated "ho on" NOT eigo eimo (if just saying that made you Yahweh, then the blind man in John 9 would be claiming to be Yahweh ... infact people would be claiming to be Yahweh every day, all the time.)
I used that scripture just to show how a 1000 cited verses that you claim support your claim, but actually don't, still equal nothing. nothing + nothing=Nothing.
Lets take the scriptures describing "worship" given to Jesus ... EVERY SINGLE ONE cites a scripture using the greek term proskuneu ... a word used for "worship" or "obescience" given to kings, to priests, to family members to angels .... it's also given to Yahweh, but if you say that Jesus receiving proskuneu means he is Yahweh ... then King David was Yahweh ... then Esau was yahweh .... but Jesus is never given Latreuo, a term for worship in Greek that is EXCLUSIVELY religious.
So those cited scriptures don't support your claim AT ALL, 0+0+0 to a million STILL = 0.
And linking me to an article by James white isn't making an argument.
If you think those verses support your claim, QUOTE THEM, and make the argument, that is honest debating. Copying and pasting a website that cites scriptures without quoting them or making ANY argument isn't debating.
Seriously Tosca1, I thought you were better than this. If you want I can just copy and paste a ton of scriptures as well, but it won't get us anywhere, which is why in EVERY POST, I quote the scripture, in context and make a careful argument from it.
Now are we going to have a serious debate or what?
I'm not going to debate simply on the basis of your words alone.
Example with your assertion about the word, "Adoni," I gave the explanation - AND MY SOURCE. You won't accept it and insists on your own, and you don't give any source to boot!
I can see it now....this is like that Greek discussion we had! Answering to your ad is a big mistake.
I read the source, the ONLY Adoni thing there was Psalms 110:1, which I already showed isn't a reference to Yahweh.
Hebrew Concordance: ??·??·nî -- 161 Occurrences
There are the Adoni uses in the OT .... Find one that refers to Yahweh .... I'll find you 161 uses for humans .... find me one for Yahweh.
I don't care what you read, especially, how you choose to understand it. That doesn't matter.
The Hebrew site stated that Adoni is also another name for God.
Now that we've wasted our third post bickering over your whining - it's time to give our conclusion. I don't have the time right now since I'm headed for work. Go ahead and give yours.
No it didn't, read the link, it stated that Adon (the root Word from which Adoni and Adonai and so one come from) is used as another name for God, HOWEVER, the Word Adoni is NEVER used for Yahweh, the one citation of Adoni the website used was Psalm 110:1, which was the very scripture I was quoting to show how Jesus cannot be Yahweh, and I linked to all the occurrences in the bible of Adoni, if you can find one that refers to Yahweh, let me know, but I can save you the time, there isn't one.
I'll start the conclusion.
Since you had the first post, you can do the conclusion first, or we can make it longer if you'd like.
This is very important .... The enemies of Jesus claim that Jesus is blashpheming by making himself Equal to God .... How does Jesus respond? He could have responeded saying "I AM Equal to God," he could have quoted a scripture referencing himself as Yahweh. He didn't.
RGacky3
Jeremiah 23:5,6 is easy, he is called Yahweh our righteousness ….
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