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True Debate: Tosca1 vs. RGacky3

digsbe

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Tosca1 and RGacky 3 will be participating in a true debate with the topic being: Does the bible teach that Jesus is identified as Yahweh, God of the bible.

Each poster will be allowed 1 introductory post, 3 posts of debate and 1 concluding post with a time limit of 2 weeks.

RGacky3 will be arguing the position that the bible does not teach that Jesus is Yahweh, God of the bible.

Tosca1 will be arguing the position that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God incarnate, Yahweh.
 

tosca1

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Using the Bible itself, I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh.

Before I proceed to do so, it is imperative to understand that God has given Himself many names by which He reveals Himself to us - His nature, His attributes, and His many facets. Some of His names:

Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah), Elohim (God), El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty), El Elyon (The Most High God), Adonai (Lord, Master), Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner), Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd), Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals), Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There), Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness), Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You), El Olam (The Everlasting God),
Qanna (Jealous) Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide), Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace), Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts),
Immanuel (God with us), El Echad (The One God)..... and many more.

YHVH - composed of 4 Hebrew letters YOD, HEY, VAV and HEY - is the personal name of God.
Ancient Hebrew didn't use any vowels therefore the actual correct pronunciation of the sacred Name is not known. The Jewish tradition is not to pronounce the sacred Name at all, but to substitute the word, "Adonai" - My Lord - in its place. That's what they do when they read the Torah. But when they're not reading the Torah, most observant Jews refer to the sacred Name simply as Hashem - which means, "the Name."
The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH


Jehovah is the vocalization of YHVH and it has also been transcribed as "Yehowah" or "Yahweh".



PROPHECIES REVEAL THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THE MESSIAH

Several titles, which are all names of God our Creator - were bestowed on the Messiah in the Old Testament.

Jehovah or Yahweh
1. In Zechariah 12:1-l0, Yahweh Himself tells Zechariah that "they will look upon me whom they have pierced."

That is consistent with Messianic prophecy made by David in Psalm 22:16,
"For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced[c] My hands and My feet;"


Rev 1:7 also referred to Jesus, the Messiah when John says: “Behold, he comes in the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and those also who pierced him and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn because of him.”


2. The Messianic prophecy of Jeremiah 23:5-6 tells that the Messiah will be described by the name of Jehovah.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

JEHOVAH TSIDKENU means The Lord Our Righteousness. The Messiah is given the title of the Most High and Only God. Jesus Christ was righteousness personified.


Elohim, Yahweh Sabaoth

1. Isaiah prophesied the Messiah will be our God, preceded by a herald.
Isaiah 40:3
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight in the desert[a]
A highway for our God.



2. Isaiah 9:6-7 not only described the Messiah as "Mighty God," but also referred to Him as Everlasting Father, and was called The Lord of Host. Three titles of Yahweh are used in just these two verses!

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.



Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.[a]


IMMANUEL, literally means, God-with-us.

If the Messiah is consistently prophesied by various prophets as Yahweh Himself, then Jesus is Yahweh.
 
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RGacky3

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One thing that's extremely important before I start, if either me or Tosca1 one cite a scripture or partially quote a scripture claiming it says something, READ IT ... read it IN IT'S CONTEXT, and see, does it really say what is being claimed it's saying, I already see some scriptures cited by tosca1 which he claims say something but actually don't.

I'll start With the Shema, Mark 12:
28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.

(Both "the lords" in italics are Yahweh in the hebrew rendering of the Shema in Deuteronomy)

Jesus quotes the Shema as the greatest commandement, the Scribe agrees With Jesus, and Jesus praises the scribe for agreeing.

What did any first Century Jew (InFact any Jew ever) understand when they heard the Shema they heard in hebrew "Shema Yisrael Yahweh Eloheinu Yahweh Echad") One, every Jew EVER understood this as being a Unitarian monotheist statement. Jesus Agreed With that statement in the Jewish form, he wasn't lieing, he wasn't decieving the scribe, he was a Unitarian monotheist.

Yahweh has no God. However Jesus does have a God.

John 20:
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


The God of Jesus is OUR GOD, and Our God is yahweh.

There are many more scriptures talking about the God of Jesus (1 Peter 1:3, Revelation 3:12, Romans 15:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3, Ephesians 1:17), and ALL of these scriptures refer to Jesus not in his earthly sense, but as the risen Christ.

John 17:3 Jesus is very Clear on his Identity and the Identity of Yahweh.
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Now is it true that Jesus is called "God" in the NT ... absolutely, does that mean that he is Yahweh NO ...


John 10:
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand[e] that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Then they tried to arrest him again, but he escaped from their hands.


This is very important .... The enemies of Jesus claim that Jesus is blashpheming by making himself Equal to God .... How does Jesus respond? He could have responeded saying "I AM Equal to God," he could have quoted a scripture referencing himself as Yahweh. He didn't.

The scripture Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6 I say, “You are gods,
children of the Most High, all of you;
in the same scripture it says God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Refering to Angels as Gods.

Jesus quotes a scripture putting himself in a catageory of a god NOT in the same category of Yahweh, he puts himself in the category of angels and human judges who (like moses) can be called god to a lesser extent .... Now if the enemies of Jesus were caliming he was yahweh, how is quoting that scripture an answer? Infact he goes on to say that he is claiming to be GOD'S SON, doing the Works of the father (the only true God).

Saying the father is in my and I am in the father means EXACTLY what it means when Jesus says in John 17:21 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,[f] so that the world may believe that you have sent me., so was Jesus claiming to be Yahweh in that statement that the father is in my and I am in the father? No more than in John 17 he was claiming that his apostles would be Yahweh.

Yahweh has NO superior. Jesus does.

1 Corinthians 11:
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband[a] is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.


God is the head of Christ ... in what way? In the same way Christ is the head of man, (this is again the exaulted risen Christ, not the earthly Jesus), there is a heiarchy where God is superior to Jesus, yahweh has no superior.

1 Corinthians 15:
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end,[g] when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[h] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.


Christ is obviously not Yahweh but subjects himself to Yahweh.

John 14:28
You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.


The MOST quoted scripture of the OT referencing Jesus in the NT is Psalm 110:1 (it's quoted 22 times in the NT).

This is the scripture.

The Lord (Yahweh in hebrew) says to my lord(Adoni),
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”


Yahweh said to MY lord ... who is talking here? King David, and why does he use Adoni instead of Adonai? Because Adonai is used for Yahweh, but Adoni is used of all sorts of People, it's used of Abraham Esau, David and so on. Adoni, is "lord" but just a simple human lord, not Yawheh. THIS is what is meant when Jesus is called Kyrios, or Lord, it is NOT a Reference to Yahweh at all.

The evidences from scripture are endless, but I'll stick With what I've written for now, keep in mind in the rest of the NT, (especially the synoptics) Jesus being subject to Yahweh is just a given.

None of the scriptures that Tosca1 quoted show actually that Jesus is Yahweh, and in my following posts, I will explain why that is so.
 

tosca1

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Within it's CONTEXT. I definitely agree with RGacky3 on the importance of this. He spoke about the Shema.
And because understanding something in its context is key to understanding what is being conveyed, I'll start by giving a brief explanation about the Shema.

The Shema is the central prayer in the Jewish Prayerbook (Siddur) and is often the first section of the Scripture that a Jewish child learns.
The Shema is actually more than just the famous six words Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad, but is composed of three parts linked together into a unity.


Composed of three parts linked together into a unity.....seems to parallel the Triunity of God.

Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One
(Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad)

That statement declares the Lord our God is One, however the Hebrew word ECHAD can imply a unity in diversity.
As an example, Moses used the word ECHAD in Genesis 2:24, "And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad)."
Ezekiel also used the word echad when he talked about the two sticks in Ezekiel 39:17, "They shall be one (echad) stick in my hand." The sticks represented the fragmented Israel.

That's the SHEMA, in its proper context.
The Shema - Hear, O Israel!


To have Jesus praising the scribe for agreeing with the Shema is not at all surprising. All throughout His Ministry, He taught man how to please the Father. If you read the New Testament - the bottomline of all His teachings is to do what's pleasing to the Father.
God - incarnated in the person of Jesus - as Son - showed us by example what a loving and dutiful son is all about, after all, aren't we all God's children.


I don't know why RGacky3 would use what Judaism teaches as basis for his argument. Obviously, there is a reason why Judaism is not Christianity, and Christianity is not Judaism. They didn't - and still don't - believe Jesus is the Messiah!
If they don't even accept Him as the prophesied Messiah, why will they accept Him as YAHWEH?

Yahweh and Jesus as One. ONENESS. Remember that phrase - and that word - since it will nag us doggedly throughout the Bible.


Of course, when I say that Jesus is Yahweh, we have to look at the Triunity of God. The word, "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, yet its concept is found from beginning to end.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 Then God said,.....

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”


"And God said," gives The Word. Throughout the creation narrative, the verb "said" is repeated. The obvious implication is God - The Word - spoke the creation into existence.

The Spirit of God is shown to be a separate person from God in verse 26. Anti-Trinitarians compare the usage of "us" to the royal "we," however, Genesis 11 neatly sinks that argument and proves once and for that indeed, the usage of us couldn't have been a form of the "royal we" or majestic plural. Forgive me for re-posting this next part but it does neatly illustrate what I'm saying.

Genesis 11

The Tower of Babel

Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”


The big key here is the word, "COME." The context shows it's being used as an invitation to others, or calling others.
It definitely speaks to another.

Furthermore, take note the parallel of usage between verses 1-4 and verses 5-7.

Verse 1-4 shows people calling to one another by saying, "come, let us..." - and verse 5-7 Yahweh calling to the "others" and saying the same, "come, let Us...."

Add that to this, 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one," and we see what look like parallelism to the TRIUNITY of GOD.


John 1:1 indicates The Word (Jesus) was in the beginning, and He was YAHWEH.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why do we know Jesus Christ was The Word?

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


So with Genesis, I've established the existence of the Spirit and The Word as a biblical fact.


(continuation on next post)
 
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tosca1

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(continuation)


RGacky3 gives 1 Cor 11 and claims God is the Head of Christ. To understand the given verse within its proper context, first of all let's read what's the opening statement in that chapter? Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. The subject is about showing and following examples!

So God is the Head of Jesus. What's so surprising about that? Why wouldn't the Father be superior to His Son? Didn't Christ teach that we should love and obey the Father and He showed us through His example as an obedient Son who glorified His Father? What kind of an example would He'd given if He didn't bow to the will of His Father? Let's not forget that Jesus is ADONAI TSIDKENU - The Lord our Righteousness, which is another Hebrew name of God.

Jer 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called,
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.



RGacky3 claims Psalm 110:1 uses Adoni instead of Adonai.
According to this site, Adonai is the plural word of Adon. The word Adon derives from the Ugaritic word meaning "lord" or "father." In the Tanakh, the word Adon can refer to men and angels as well as to the Lord God of Israel.

Adoni - meaning, My Lord - is also another Hebrew name for God.
Hebrew Name for God - Adonai


RGacky3 gave 1 Cor 15, which is about the Resurrection and the triumph over death. That's the prophesied role of the Messiah, which is Jesus, God-incarnate. He'd missed a very interesting part though, that ties up with Hosea 13.

1 Cor 15
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hosea 13:14
14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, I will be your plagues!
O Grave, I will be your destruction!

Pity is hidden from My eyes.




RGacky3 gave John 10 for his argument, HOWEVER, he started with John 10:31.
Had he not skipped over John 10:30, he wouldn't have taken this out of context.


John 10:30
[30 I and the Father are one.


John 10:30 proves my claim!


John 10:
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”


RGacky3 claims:
This is very important .... The enemies of Jesus claim that Jesus is blashpheming by making himself Equal to God .... How does Jesus respond? He could have responeded saying "I AM Equal to God," he could have quoted a scripture referencing himself as Yahweh. He didn't.

Why will He say He's equal to God when that's not what He was saying at all? That's not what He was being accused of for blasphemy. Read this part again.

"...because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”

The people were not accusing Him of saying He is equal to God. They were accusing Him of saying "HE IS GOD!"
He said in John 10: 30 (the part that RGacky3 had overlooked):
I and the Father are one.

So, that too, proves my claim.


34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

RGacky3 claims
The scripture Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6 I say, “You are gods,
children of the Most High, all of you; in the same scripture it says God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: Refering to Angels as Gods.
Jesus quotes a scripture putting himself in a catageory of a god NOT in the same category of Yahweh, he puts himself in the category of angels and human judges who (like moses) can be called god to a lesser extent .... Now if the enemies of Jesus were caliming he was yahweh, how is quoting that scripture an answer? Infact he goes on to say that he is claiming to be GOD'S SON, doing the Works of the father (the only true God).

Read Psalm 82.

Psalm 82
A Plea for Justice
82 God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”


Psalm 82 does not refer to angels. It refers to judges, magistrates or those who have authority over men. When Jesus quoted Psalm 82, He was reminding them that the Law refers to mere men as "gods."

Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?
Read more: What does the Bible mean by “you are gods” / "ye are gods" in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?

You're forgetting the fact that Jesus was a real human while on earth. And He is the Son of God, although He and Yahweh are ONE.

Fully understanding the Trinity is beyond our capacity.



RGacky gave John 17:3 claiming it as proof that Jesus is very Clear on his Identity and the Identity of Yahweh. Unfortunately, RGacky3 only gave that one line, which if read by itself will be taken out of context! Had he continued reading farther down, he would've found out how clearly Jesus had indeed laid it all out!

John 17
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.




Yahweh and Jesus being ONE, is not merely stated. It is EMPHASIZED!

John 17 proves my claim!
 
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RGacky3

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Lets start With Zechariah 12:10 (Stone edition of the Tanakh ... a Jewish translation)

They will look toward Me because of those whom they have stabbed; they will mourn over him as one mourns over an only [child]…”

There is a reason no jewish scholar Things this verse teaches that yahweh will be pierced. it's "elay et aser daqaru," (me "et" whome they pierced) if you take away the et, it's just look upon me whome they pierced, had et come BEFORE the "Elay" or me it would mean "me whome they pierced" since the "et" comes before the Object in a sentence, but since it comes AFTER the "me" "me" is not included in the Object. So the "me" isn't who gets pierced.

That's why in all translations it continues after to say they shall "mourn over "him" and weep bitterly over him" .... why is that? Because it isn't Yahweh being pierced.



Another way to translate it is as the NRSV (and many others do)

10 And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one[a] whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Given that it fits the context of continuing to talk about mourning over "him" and weeping over "him."

The 2 times this verse is quoted in the NT they never say it's God or "me" being pierced.

But again, no Jewish scholar or commentator says or even thought that this could mean Yahweh gets pierced.

Here it is in John 19:37
37 And again another passage of scripture says, “They will look on the one whom they have pierced.”

Jeremiah 23:5,6 is easy, he is called Yahweh our righteousness …. You know what else is Called Yahweh our righteousness? Jerusalem in Jeremiah 33
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”


Are we willing to deduce from this that Jerusalem is literally Jehovah? Obviously not, neither should be do so about the messiah (as no Jew has ever done).

Isaiah 40:3 This doesn't prove that Jesus is Yahweh at all ... Jesus is doing Yahwehs work, both moses and Yahweh are talked about as "delivering the people" does that mean Moses is Yahweh? The way was being paved for Yahweh ... to establish the kingdom and pay for sins through the son, that would make that scripture fit with the rest of scripture.

Isaiah 9:6-7. There is no reason why mighty God and everlasting father are not names that can be applied to persons that are not Yahweh, as was stated before God is applied to people that are not Yahweh, and notice it isn't ALmighty God, a title used for Yahweh.

As for the Yahweh of hosts at the end ... look at the context.

His authority shall grow continually,
and there shall be endless peace
for the throne of David and his kingdom.
He will establish and uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.


It's 2 different beings, the "him" the "son" it's talking about, and the Lord of hosts that "does it," like how Moses delivers Israel, but it's Gods power that does it. It's Yahwah that accomplashes his will throug the messiah.

About Immanuel, common now. Elijah means "God Yahweh" does that mean Elijah was .... GOd yahweh? Obviously not. A few people are called Eliab "Gods is my father" are they the messiah? Elihu means "God is he" Was Elihu God? No, these are names, not ontological signifiers, God is with us is appropriate since Jesus Christ brings people into relationship with God through him, it doesn't mean he is God any more than Elihu's or Elijah's name mean they are God.

On to the Shema,

it being in 3? parts pointing to a trinity, I hope that isn't an argument, I don't see how it could be.

But you missed my point. Jesus AGREED with the Jewish scribes statement of the Shema, was the Jew a secret trinitarian? Was Jesus lieing? Did Jesus know that the Jewish scribe was stating a Unitarian creed, but agreed thinking secretly of the trinity? No, Jesus agreed with the Jewish UNITARIAN creed in the Shema, what is important is what the Jewish scribe meant when he said the Shema, becuase Jesus agreed with it.

Echad means ONE, when I say 2 become one that makes sense, that does'nt mean when I say "there is one person over there" or "I have one mother" I'm secretly saying that I have many people that act as one mother.

About the "Us" part in Genesis 1 and 11, in Chapter 11, Yahweh was with angles and Yahweh often sent his angel to take care of his buisiness. Now chapter 1, lets look at the whole context.

26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind(Adam, singular) in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[d] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

27 So God created humankind(Adam, singular) in his image,
in the image of God he created them;[f]
male and female he created them.


Now lets assume Tosca1 is giving the right interpretation, the "Us" means 2 persons as one, then later when it's refered to as "he" what's happening? Is it confusing theology? Is it now the father only? If Tosca1's interpretation is right then the writer of Genesis is kind of schitzophrenic going from trinitarianism to Unitarianism in 2 verses.

But not, look closer. Let us(plural) make Adam (singular) in our(plural) ..... and let them(plural).

but then in 27 it says let in the image of God he(singular) created them (plural) male and female(explaining why Adam, singular is actually a plural).

So whats the parallel?

Proverbs 8
22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,[c]
the first of his acts of long ago.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth—
26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,[d]
or the world’s first bits of soil.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there,
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;[e]


Gods Wisdom (feminine) is personified as his mater worker, could that be an angel? Could it be the pre-existing Christ? Perhaps, but most likely it's just wisdom itself personified which would match well with the male and female of humankind. But what it MOST CERTIANLY is not, is a second person in Yahweh, given that it is created at the beginning.
 

RGacky3

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Talking about Genesis 11:6 saying that "the people are one" as having any relevance to the argument about whether Yahweh has 2 or more persons within him is nonsense. It means what it says, the people are one, just the way you would say that in english, it doesn't mean ontologically at all, it isn't some code or something.

John 1:1 (transliteration)
In the begining was the word and the word was with THE(ho) theon, and theos was the word.

This is the ONLY TIME, in the bible that theos is used twice where one theos has the article before it, and the second theos does not. A differentiation is being made. So either the second theos is "a god" or it is talking about the nature of the word. OR it is the God it was with, meaning the Word was the father, or the word was the trinity, something no one accepts. John is making a deliberate differenciation between THE god and god, these are different beings.

Now there are 2 possible interpretations, one is that the word is a pre-existant divine christ, who was with God, but not Yahweh (this the differenciation between Ho theon and theos, a differenciation that is ONLY ever made in this verse), OR the word refers to Gods desire, Gods will, which is made actual, made flesh in Jesus, not necessarily ontologically, much like how Gods rulership is actuated through the kings of Israel, or Gods word is given through the prophets. But interpreting John 1:1 to say that Jesus WAS ontologically the God that he was with, and that the differenciation John makes is meaningless, is IMpossible.

So God is the Head of Jesus. What's so surprising about that? Why wouldn't the Father be superior to His Son? Didn't Christ teach that we should love and obey the Father and He showed us through His example as an obedient Son who glorified His Father? What kind of an example would He'd given if He didn't bow to the will of His Father? Let's not forget that Jesus is ADONAI TSIDKENU - The Lord our Righteousness, which is another Hebrew name of God.

Jer 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called,
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Well it's suprising because it implies that Jesus is inferior to God in authority, meaning he is NOT God. I already answered Jeremiah 23:6, names don't imply ontological sameness, otherwise Jerusalem would be Yahweh too, since Jerusalem is called by the same name.

Adoni is used for Abraham, David, Jesus, and others, Adonai is used in the OT EXCLUSIVELY for Yahweh.

Look at the text, in Psalm 110, it says.

The Lord (Adonai or Yahweh) says to my lord (Adoni),
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”


Adoni is Jesus, as attested in the NT, he's the one that sits at the right hand of God, who is Adonai? Yahweh (Adonai is used exclusively for yahweh in the OT), so this is not Yahweh telling Yahweh, it's Yahweh telling Adoni (a term used for earthly lords, all sorts of lords).

Tosca1 then goes to the Corinthians 15, and totally ignores my point, and just brings up a parrallel in Hosea, totally nothing to do with what I wrote. But the scripture only proves my point.

57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yahweh did what he said in Hosea THROUGH Jesus.

John 10:30
[30 I and the Father are one.”

John 10:30 proves my claim!

The enemies interpreted this they way you do, then when you continue reading ... as I showed ... JESUS CORRECTED THEM.

And Jesus explains this later in John 17
11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.


So now what, are all the apostles Yahweh too?

Psalm 82 does not refer to angels. It refers to judges, magistrates or those who have authority over men. When Jesus quoted Psalm 82, He was reminding them that the Law refers to mere men as "gods."

Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?

ANd that's my point, he was NOT claiming to be Yahweh, anymore than those judges were .... (the term "we are one" is clarified in chapter 17).

John 17
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Unless you're willing to admit the apostles are also Yahweh ... No that verse doesn't support your claim, it supports the opposite.

So in there end all that Tosca1 has really has nothing, and the scriptures are clear, Yahweh is THE GOD OF Jesus, Jesus is not Yawheh, he is inferior to Yahweh, he worships Yahweh, he submits to Yahweh, and Yahweh is his God and our God.
 

tosca1

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On to the Shema,
it being in 3? parts pointing to a trinity, I hope that isn't an argument, I don't see how it could be.

I was only musing about that when I wrote it, but now when I really researched that....here is what I found!

The Shema and Oneness (Achdut) - The name of God appears 3 times, shema is composed of three portions. Shema is prayed 3 times daily.

For a detailed explanation to the Triunity,
read #9 . Hashilush Hakadosh - the Holy Trinity


Yes, there is indeed a slight difference in translation of Zecheriah 12:10, however the translation given in the video, "And they will look toward me about who they pierced," does not negate the fact that Yahweh and Jesus are One. There are still numerous Biblical statements that clearly reveal Jesus is Yahweh.



Jeremiah 23:5,6 is easy, he is called Yahweh our righteousness ….

So you agree with me! Jesus is YAHWEH!

As shown, He's been given the title, Yahweh our Righteousness.




Jeremiah 23
5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


You know what else is Called Yahweh our righteousness? Jerusalem in Jeremiah 33
16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”

She was called that, because of Jesus Christ! Check Jeremiah 23:6 again.

6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


In those days shall Judah be saved,.... The elect of God among the Jews; and all such who are Jews inwardly, who truly believe in Christ, and confess his name, and praise him, and give him the glory or salvation. Judah signifies one that confesses or praises the Lord; such shall be saved from sin, Satan, the law, wrath, hell, and damnation,
by the Branch of righteousness, the Messiah;


http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/33-16.htm




But you missed my point. Jesus AGREED with the Jewish scribes statement of the Shema,

Why wouldn't He agree? Jesus, the Spirit and Yahweh as One. There is indeed One God.



Echad means ONE, when I say 2 become one that makes sense, that does'nt mean when I say "there is one person over there" or "I have one mother" I'm secretly saying that I have many people that act as one mother.

You may not agree with it but apparently, Echad - according to Hebrew translation - can also mean unity in diversity. Your analogy about a mother does not make sense. As for having one "person" here and the other "person" there....haven't you heard, God is omnipresent - meaning God is present everywhere at the same time? God can do anything.



About the "Us" part in Genesis 1 and 11, in Chapter 11, Yahweh was with angles and Yahweh often sent his angel to take care of his buisiness. Now chapter 1, lets look at the whole context.

26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind(Adam, singular) in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[d] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

27 So God created humankind(Adam, singular) in his image,
in the image of God he created them;[f]
male and female he created them.

Angels do not create. Furthermore, we are created in the image of God, not angels.

Mankind may be singular but it means human beings collectively. It's the human race.



Proverbs 8 is the personification of wisdom in an abstract concept. Poets, and biblical writers have used personification in their writings. Example : “Sin is crouching at the door” (Gen. 4:7 esv). “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other” (Ps. 85:10 kjv). “Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:15 esv). My personal favorite is Zechariah’s vision of a woman named Wickedness sitting inside a cereal container (Zech. 5:6–8).

How can you know when a poet has used personification? It is not complicated: whenever a poet attributes human qualities to some- thing inanimate, often an abstraction, he or she has used personification.

This takes us back to Proverbs 8. The main subject of Proverbs chapters 1–9 is wisdom, which is an abstract quality or character trait rather than a person, but wisdom is treated as a woman from the first chapter right through chapter 9. Wisdom is portrayed as a woman of dazzling attractiveness and virtue, who teaches in the marketplace of the town (1:20), who is romantically embraced (4:8–9), who can be addressed as “my sister” (7:4), who utters a long speech commending herself to the public (chap. 8), and who builds a house and invites people to an alluring banquet (9:1–6).
http://www.equip.org/articles/who-is-wisdom-in-proverbs-8/


Talking about Genesis 11:6 saying that "the people are one" as having any relevance to the argument about whether Yahweh has 2 or more persons within him is nonsense. It means what it says, the people are one, just the way you would say that in english, it doesn't mean ontologically at all, it isn't some code or something.

The phrase, "COME, Let us..." indicates that Yahweh speaks to another.

As for Adoni, I've explained about that. It is also a Hebrew Name of God.

Hebrew Name for God - Adonai



And Jesus explains this later in John 17
11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
So now what, are all the apostles Yahweh too?

Remember, Jesus is about to leave, so He prays for them....so that they (Apostles) may be united.


John 17
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one--



(continuation next page)
 
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tosca1

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This site gives a sketch of implicit and explicit Christology.

DOES THE BIBLE SAY JESUS IS GOD?

Part I: An Outline of the New Testament Testimony to the Deity of Christ
This outline does not purport to be in any sense an exhaustive analysis of the NT witness to Christ's deity. Rather it is a sketch of one approach - a rather traditional approach - to this theme. Other complementary or supplementary approaches abound, such as the creative treatment of Jesus' implicit claim to deity in his parables by P. B. Payne or R. T. France's documentation from the Synoptic Gospels of Jesus' assumption of the role of Yahweh (Jesus and the Old Testament p.150-59). For a brief discussion of the NT verses that seem, at first sight, to call Jesus' divinity into question, see R. E. Brown, "Does the New Testament Call Jesus God?" (Reflections 6-10).


IMPLICIT CHRISTOLOGY


1. Divine functions performed by Jesus:

a. In relation to the universe:
(1) Creator (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2)
(2) Sustainer (1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3)
(3) Author of life (John 1:4; Acts 3:15)
(4) Ruler (Matt. 28:18; Rom. 14:9; Rev. 1:6)

b. In relation to human beings:
(1) Healing the sick (Mark 1:32-34; Acts 3:6; 10:38)
(2) Teaching authoritatively (Mark 1:21-22; 13:31)
(3) Forgiving sins (Mark 2:1-12; Luke 24:47; Acts 6:31; Col. 3:13)
(4) Granting salvation or imparting eternal life (Acts 4: 12; Rom. 10:12-14)
(5) Dispensing the Spirit (Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 33)
(6) Raising the dead (Luke 7:11-17; John 5:21; 6:40)
(7) Exercising judgment (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:19-29; Acts 10:42; 1 Cor. 4:4-6)

2. Divine status claimed by or accorded to Jesus:

a. In relation to his Father:
(1) Possessor of divine attributes (John 1:4; 10:30; 21:17; Eph. 4:10; Col. 1:19; 2:9)
(2) Eternally existent (John 1:1; 8:58; 12:41; 17:5; 1 Cor. 10:4; Phil. 2:6; Heb. 11:26; 13:8; Jude 5)
(3) Equal in dignity (Matt. 28:19; John 5:23; 2 Cor. 13:14; Rev. 22:13; cf. 21:6)
(4) Perfect revealer (John 1:18; 14:9; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:1-3)
(5) Embodiment of truth (John 1:9, 14; 6:32; 14:6; Rev. 3:7,14)
(6) Joint possessor of the kingdom (Eph. 5:5; Rev. 11:15), churches (Rom. 16:16), Spirit (Rom. 8:9; Phil. 1:19), temple (Rev. 21:2), divine name (Matt 28:19; cf. Rev. 14:1), and throne (Rev. 22:1, 3)

b. In relation to human beings:
(1) Recipient of praise (Mat 21:16-16; Eph. 6:19; 1 Tim. 1:12; Rev. 5:8-14)
(2) Recipient of prayer (Acts 1:24; 7:59-60; 9:10-17,21; 22:16,19; 1 Cor. 1:2; 16:22; 2 Cor. 12:8)
(3) Object of saving faith (John 14:1; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Rom. 10:8-13)
(4) Object of worship (Matt 14:33; 28:9,17; John 5:23; 20:28; Phil 2:10-11; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 5:8-12)
(5) Joint source of blessing (1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; 1 Thess. 3:11; 2 Thess. 2:16)
(6) Object of doxologies (2 Tim 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5b-6; 5:13)


B. EXPLICIT CHRISTOLOGY

1. Old Testament passages referring to Yahweh applied to Jesus:

a. Character of Yahweh
(Exod. 3:14 and Isa 43:11 alluded to in John 8:68; Ps. 101:27-28 LXX 1MT 102:28-291 quoted in Heb. 1:11-12; Isa 44:6 alluded to in Rev. 1:17)

b. Holiness of Yahweh
(Isa 8:12-13 [cf. 29:23] quoted in 1 Pet.3:14-15)

c. Descriptions of Yahweh
(Ezek. 43:2 and Dan. 10:6-6 alluded to in Rev. 1:13-16)

d. Worship of Yahweh
(Isa 45:23 alluded to in Phil. 2:10-11; Deut. 32:43 LXX and Ps. 96:7 LXX [MT 97:7] quoted in Heb. 1:6)

e. Work of Yahweh in creation
(Ps. 101:26 LXX [MT 102:27] quoted in Heb. 1:10)

f. Salvation of Yahweh
(Joel 2:32 [MT 3:5] quoted in Rom. 10:13; cf. Acts 2:21; Isa 40:3 quoted in Matt. 3:3)

g. Trustworthiness of Yawheh
(Isa 28:16 quoted in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pet. 2:6)

h. Judgment of Yahweh
(Isa 6:10 alluded to in John 12:41; Isa 8:14 quoted in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8)

i. Triumph of Yahweh
(Ps. 68:18 [MT v. 19] quoted in Eph. 4:8)


2. Divine titles claimed by or applied to Jesus:

a. Son of Man (Matt. 16:28; 24:30; Mark 8:38; 14:62-64; Acts 7:56)
b. Son of God (Matt.11:27; Mark 15:39; John 1:18; Rom. 1:4; Gal.4:4; Heb. 1:2)
c. Messiah (Matt. 16:16; Mark 14:61; John 20:31)
d. Lord (Mark 12:36-37; John 20:28; Rom. 10:9, 1 Cor. 8:6-6; 12:3; 16:22; Phil. 2:11; 1 Pet. 2:3; 3:15)
e. Alpha and Omega (Rev. 22:13; cf. 1:8; 21:6, of the Lord God)
f. God (John 1:1,18; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1)

Material above is taken from Murray J. Harris, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992, ISBN 0-8010-4370-0



Part II: A Scriptural Glossary of the Names, Titles and Attributes Demonstrating
That Jesus and Yahweh Are One


more.....

http://www.rim.org/muslim/JesusisGod.htm
 
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RGacky3

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The Shema being prayed 3 times daily, or whatever, does'nt say ANYTHING about the ontology of God, neither does the different parts of the shema, you're trying to find codes and secret meanings that simply arn't there.

Zechariah 12:10, the translation differences prove that the scripture isn't talking about Yahweh being pierced, thus this doesn't support Jesus being Yahweh (infact it proves the opposite).

Jeramiah 23:6 doesn't show that Jesus is is Yahweh, Yahweh are in TONS of names, in the OT, and the same book 10 chapters later calls Jerusalem Yahweh our righteousness .... this doesn't prove anything, if Jesus being called Yahweh is our righteousness makes him Yahweh, so does Jerusalem being called it. Remember it's Yahweh saying "this person will be called Yahweh my righteousness" if he meant that he himself was the promised messiah ... he would have said it." My point stands, being called Yahweh my righteousness doesn't prove that one is Yahweh himself, had that been the case you'd have to include Jerusalem in the trinity.

Why wouldn't He agree? Jesus, the Spirit and Yahweh as One. There is indeed One God.

He would have dissagreed because the Shema in Judaism has ALWAYS BEEN a Unitarian monotheist statement of faith, had he been a trinitarian he would have been lieing if he agreed with the Jewish Shema. Yahweh has always been a person, in all the OT (and the NT) Yahweh is a person, so when they say "One" they mean "one" one person, one peronsal God. THat's what jews ALWAYS have meant (ask any rabbi), if Jesus dissagreed with the mainstream of Judaism's interpretation of the shema so radically it would have been dishonest of him to pretend to agree with it, he wasn't dishonest, he agreed.

You may not agree with it but apparently, Echad - according to Hebrew translation - can also mean unity in diversity. Your analogy about a mother does not make sense. As for having one "person" here and the other "person" there....haven't you heard, God is omnipresent - meaning God is present everywhere at the same time? God can do anything.

God is refered to with a singular personal pronoun in the bible over 20,000 times. Echad means "one" it has the SAME meaning as "one" in english, and Yahweh is the whole bible is a person.

If you believe Jesus is Yahweh, that's 1 Yahweh, if you believe the father is yahweh, that's another. But the Shema ACCORDING TO ALL JEWISH SCHOLARS, maintains the the Unitarian monotheist Creed of Judaism.

Proverbs 8 is the personification of wisdom in an abstract concept. Poets, and biblical writers have used personification in their writings. Example : “Sin is crouching at the door” (Gen. 4:7 esv). “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other” (Ps. 85:10 kjv). “Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:15 esv). My personal favorite is Zechariah’s vision of a woman named Wickedness sitting inside a cereal container (Zech. 5:6–8).

How can you know when a poet has used personification? It is not complicated: whenever a poet attributes human qualities to some- thing inanimate, often an abstraction, he or she has used personification.

This takes us back to Proverbs 8. The main subject of Proverbs chapters 1–9 is wisdom, which is an abstract quality or character trait rather than a person, but wisdom is treated as a woman from the first chapter right through chapter 9. Wisdom is portrayed as a woman of dazzling attractiveness and virtue, who teaches in the marketplace of the town (1:20), who is romantically embraced (4:8–9), who can be addressed as “my sister” (7:4), who utters a long speech commending herself to the public (chap. 8), and who builds a house and invites people to an alluring banquet (9:1–6).Who Is Wisdom in Proverbs 8? | Christian Research Institute

In Chapter 8 its talking about Wisdom in relation to the creation, it can also be personified other ways, in every part of creation Wisdom was there ... PERSONIFIED, that fits PERFECTLY with Genesis one, given that "man" was both male and female, and Wisdom is personified as female.

I take the text in Proverbs 8:22-31 to mean what it says.

As for Adoni, I've explained about that. It is also a Hebrew Name of God.

And for Humans, infact ONLY for humans (read your link), in Psalm 110:1, it's Yahweh (Adonai) talking to a lord (Adoni), (of David). The only example they gave of Adoni (supposedly) refering to Yahweh is Psalm 110:1, which obviously doesn't, other than that Adoni reffers to Abraham, Kings, and many other HUMANS.

Remember, Jesus is about to leave, so He prays for them....so that they (Apostles) may be united.
Our Lord especially prayed, that all believers might be as one body under one head, animated by one soul, by their union with Christ and the Father in him, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

Yeah, in the same way him and Yahweh are united .... it obviously doesn't mean ontologically in either case, the bible is consistant.
 

RGacky3

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This site gives a sketch of implicit and explicit Christology.

DOES THE BIBLE SAY JESUS IS GOD?

Part I: An Outline of the New Testament Testimony to the Deity of Christ
This outline does not purport to be in any sense an exhaustive analysis of the NT witness to Christ's deity. Rather it is a sketch of one approach - a rather traditional approach - to this theme. Other complementary or supplementary approaches abound, such as the creative treatment of Jesus' implicit claim to deity in his parables by P. B. Payne or R. T. France's documentation from the Synoptic Gospels of Jesus' assumption of the role of Yahweh (Jesus and the Old Testament p.150-59). For a brief discussion of the NT verses that seem, at first sight, to call Jesus' divinity into question, see R. E. Brown, "Does the New Testament Call Jesus God?" (Reflections 6-10).


IMPLICIT CHRISTOLOGY


1. Divine functions performed by Jesus:

a. In relation to the universe:
(1) Creator (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2)
(2) Sustainer (1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3)
(3) Author of life (John 1:4; Acts 3:15)
(4) Ruler (Matt. 28:18; Rom. 14:9; Rev. 1:6)

b. In relation to human beings:
(1) Healing the sick (Mark 1:32-34; Acts 3:6; 10:38)
(2) Teaching authoritatively (Mark 1:21-22; 13:31)
(3) Forgiving sins (Mark 2:1-12; Luke 24:47; Acts 6:31; Col. 3:13)
(4) Granting salvation or imparting eternal life (Acts 4: 12; Rom. 10:12-14)
(5) Dispensing the Spirit (Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 33)
(6) Raising the dead (Luke 7:11-17; John 5:21; 6:40)
(7) Exercising judgment (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:19-29; Acts 10:42; 1 Cor. 4:4-6)

2. Divine status claimed by or accorded to Jesus:

a. In relation to his Father:
(1) Possessor of divine attributes (John 1:4; 10:30; 21:17; Eph. 4:10; Col. 1:19; 2:9)
(2) Eternally existent (John 1:1; 8:58; 12:41; 17:5; 1 Cor. 10:4; Phil. 2:6; Heb. 11:26; 13:8; Jude 5)
(3) Equal in dignity (Matt. 28:19; John 5:23; 2 Cor. 13:14; Rev. 22:13; cf. 21:6)
(4) Perfect revealer (John 1:18; 14:9; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:1-3)
(5) Embodiment of truth (John 1:9, 14; 6:32; 14:6; Rev. 3:7,14)
(6) Joint possessor of the kingdom (Eph. 5:5; Rev. 11:15), churches (Rom. 16:16), Spirit (Rom. 8:9; Phil. 1:19), temple (Rev. 21:2), divine name (Matt 28:19; cf. Rev. 14:1), and throne (Rev. 22:1, 3)

b. In relation to human beings:
(1) Recipient of praise (Mat 21:16-16; Eph. 6:19; 1 Tim. 1:12; Rev. 5:8-14)
(2) Recipient of prayer (Acts 1:24; 7:59-60; 9:10-17,21; 22:16,19; 1 Cor. 1:2; 16:22; 2 Cor. 12:8)
(3) Object of saving faith (John 14:1; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Rom. 10:8-13)
(4) Object of worship (Matt 14:33; 28:9,17; John 5:23; 20:28; Phil 2:10-11; Heb. 1:6; Rev. 5:8-12)
(5) Joint source of blessing (1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 1:2; Gal. 1:3; 1 Thess. 3:11; 2 Thess. 2:16)
(6) Object of doxologies (2 Tim 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5b-6; 5:13)


B. EXPLICIT CHRISTOLOGY

1. Old Testament passages referring to Yahweh applied to Jesus:

a. Character of Yahweh
(Exod. 3:14 and Isa 43:11 alluded to in John 8:68; Ps. 101:27-28 LXX 1MT 102:28-291 quoted in Heb. 1:11-12; Isa 44:6 alluded to in Rev. 1:17)

b. Holiness of Yahweh
(Isa 8:12-13 [cf. 29:23] quoted in 1 Pet.3:14-15)

c. Descriptions of Yahweh
(Ezek. 43:2 and Dan. 10:6-6 alluded to in Rev. 1:13-16)

d. Worship of Yahweh
(Isa 45:23 alluded to in Phil. 2:10-11; Deut. 32:43 LXX and Ps. 96:7 LXX [MT 97:7] quoted in Heb. 1:6)

e. Work of Yahweh in creation
(Ps. 101:26 LXX [MT 102:27] quoted in Heb. 1:10)

f. Salvation of Yahweh
(Joel 2:32 [MT 3:5] quoted in Rom. 10:13; cf. Acts 2:21; Isa 40:3 quoted in Matt. 3:3)

g. Trustworthiness of Yawheh
(Isa 28:16 quoted in Rom. 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pet. 2:6)

h. Judgment of Yahweh
(Isa 6:10 alluded to in John 12:41; Isa 8:14 quoted in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8)

i. Triumph of Yahweh
(Ps. 68:18 [MT v. 19] quoted in Eph. 4:8)


2. Divine titles claimed by or applied to Jesus:

a. Son of Man (Matt. 16:28; 24:30; Mark 8:38; 14:62-64; Acts 7:56)
b. Son of God (Matt.11:27; Mark 15:39; John 1:18; Rom. 1:4; Gal.4:4; Heb. 1:2)
c. Messiah (Matt. 16:16; Mark 14:61; John 20:31)
d. Lord (Mark 12:36-37; John 20:28; Rom. 10:9, 1 Cor. 8:6-6; 12:3; 16:22; Phil. 2:11; 1 Pet. 2:3; 3:15)
e. Alpha and Omega (Rev. 22:13; cf. 1:8; 21:6, of the Lord God)
f. God (John 1:1,18; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1)

Material above is taken from Murray J. Harris, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992, ISBN 0-8010-4370-0



Part II: A Scriptural Glossary of the Names, Titles and Attributes Demonstrating
That Jesus and Yahweh Are One


more.....

Does the Bible say Jesus is God?

Am I supposed to go in and debunk EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE verses which tosca just copied and pasted from a website? I mean I could easily do it, but it would take a long time, and we were supposed to CITE the scriptures we we're arguing for, this isn't really honest debating, anyone can google a website and copy and paste pages.

(BTW the so-called Exodus 3:14 to John 8:58 link only works if the words "ho on" (as used for "I am" in exodus 3:14 are the same as "ego eimi" which are the words for "I am in John 8:58, I if this is the type of argument that this website uses then it's gonna be damn easy to debunk it all).

I again, I'm not arguing against a website, if you want to make the arguments make them your self and individually., quote the scripture.

Copying and pasting a MOUNTAIN of text (of bad arguments) and expecting me to go through each one in just a few posts is dishonest.
 

tosca1

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Am I supposed to go in and debunk EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE verses which tosca just copied and pasted from a website? I mean I could easily do it, but it would take a long time, and we were supposed to CITE the scriptures we we're arguing for, this isn't really honest debating, anyone can google a website and copy and paste pages.

(BTW the so-called Exodus 3:14 to John 8:58 link only works if the words "ho on" (as used for "I am" in exodus 3:14 are the same as "ego eimi" which are the words for "I am in John 8:58, I if this is the type of argument that this website uses then it's gonna be damn easy to debunk it all).

I again, I'm not arguing against a website, if you want to make the arguments make them your self and individually., quote the scripture.

Copying and pasting a MOUNTAIN of text (of bad arguments) and expecting me to go through each one in just a few posts is dishonest.

Let's deal with ego eimi. John 8:58 is an absolute.

(BTW the so-called Exodus 3:14 to John 8:58 link only works if the words "ho on" (as used for "I am" in exodus 3:14 are the same as "ego eimi" which are the words for "I am in John 8:58, I if this is the type of argument that this website uses then it's gonna be damn easy to debunk it all).

Here, it's a long read again....but it explains about that.

Translation of ego eimi
http://vintage.aomin.org/EGO.html


Look, I'm not going to debate on the basis of your own words or understanding alone. I think your previous posts justify my opinion.


Our debate is about whether the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh. How do you supposed we'll tackle that argument? THROUGH BIBLICAL VERSES.

It couldn't be helped that there is a "MOUNTAIN" of BIBLICAL VERSES - not simply texts - but referenced verses that shows that indeed the Bible shows Jesus is Yahweh.

I stated in my opening post:
Using the Bible itself, I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh.

Why should it matter if my reference is copied and pasted? All it does is list all the relevant biblical verses in an organized manner that we may easily understand how they are related to our discussion.

If you're going to argue that the Bible does not show Jesus is Yahweh, you ought to read the verses mentioned - after all, they are the proofs being presented. The onus is on you to prove them wrong.

Surely you've got Biblical verses lined up to support your position, or you should know by now the verses that are being cited to prove not only the deity of Jesus, but Him being Yahweh as well.

Of course, there's a ton of biblical verses that shows Jesus is Yahweh - because that's the fact! :lol:
 
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Let's deal with ego eimi. John 8:58 is an absolute.



Here, it's a long read again....but it explains about that.

Translation of ego eimi
Alpha and Omega Ministries, The Christian Apologetics Ministry of James R. White


Look, I'm not going to debate on the basis of your own words or understanding alone. I think your previous posts justify my opinion.


Our debate is about whether the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh. How do you supposed we'll tackle that argument? THROUGH BIBLICAL VERSES.

It couldn't be helped that there is a "MOUNTAIN" of BIBLICAL VERSES - not simply texts - but referenced verses that shows that indeed the Bible shows Jesus is Yahweh.

I stated in my opening post:
Using the Bible itself, I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Bible teaches Jesus is Yahweh.

Why should it matter if my reference is copied and pasted? All it does is list all the relevant biblical verses in an organized manner that we may easily understand how they are related to our discussion.

If you're going to argue that the Bible does not show Jesus is Yahweh, you ought to read the verses mentioned - after all, they are the proofs being presented. The onus is on you to prove them wrong.

Surely you've got Biblical verses lined up to support your position, or you should know by now the verses that are being cited to prove not only the deity of Jesus, but Him being Yahweh as well.

Of course, there's a ton of biblical verses that shows Jesus is Yahweh - because that's the fact! :lol:

It matters if it's copied and pasted, because you arn't making the actual arguments, the verses you cite don't ACTUALLY show that Jesus is Yahweh, you claim they do, that is why in the beggining we agreed that we would QUOTE the verses, and you can actually show HOW they show that Jesus is Yahweh.

About the ego eimi thing .... Exodus 3:14
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”(Ego Eimi Ho on) He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I am (Ho On) has sent me to you.’”

When he uses I am by itself it's translated "ho on" NOT eigo eimo (if just saying that made you Yahweh, then the blind man in John 9 would be claiming to be Yahweh ... infact people would be claiming to be Yahweh every day, all the time.)

I used that scripture just to show how a 1000 cited verses that you claim support your claim, but actually don't, still equal nothing. nothing + nothing=Nothing.

Lets take the scriptures describing "worship" given to Jesus ... EVERY SINGLE ONE cites a scripture using the greek term proskuneu ... a word used for "worship" or "obescience" given to kings, to priests, to family members to angels .... it's also given to Yahweh, but if you say that Jesus receiving proskuneu means he is Yahweh ... then King David was Yahweh ... then Esau was yahweh .... but Jesus is never given Latreuo, a term for worship in Greek that is EXCLUSIVELY religious.

So those cited scriptures don't support your claim AT ALL, 0+0+0 to a million STILL = 0.

And linking me to an article by James white isn't making an argument.

If you think those verses support your claim, QUOTE THEM, and make the argument, that is honest debating. Copying and pasting a website that cites scriptures without quoting them or making ANY argument isn't debating.

Seriously Tosca1, I thought you were better than this. If you want I can just copy and paste a ton of scriptures as well, but it won't get us anywhere, which is why in EVERY POST, I quote the scripture, in context and make a careful argument from it.

Now are we going to have a serious debate or what?
 
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It matters if it's copied and pasted, because you arn't making the actual arguments, the verses you cite don't ACTUALLY show that Jesus is Yahweh, you claim they do, that is why in the beggining we agreed that we would QUOTE the verses, and you can actually show HOW they show that Jesus is Yahweh.

About the ego eimi thing .... Exodus 3:14
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”(Ego Eimi Ho on) He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I am (Ho On) has sent me to you.’”

When he uses I am by itself it's translated "ho on" NOT eigo eimo (if just saying that made you Yahweh, then the blind man in John 9 would be claiming to be Yahweh ... infact people would be claiming to be Yahweh every day, all the time.)

I used that scripture just to show how a 1000 cited verses that you claim support your claim, but actually don't, still equal nothing. nothing + nothing=Nothing.

Lets take the scriptures describing "worship" given to Jesus ... EVERY SINGLE ONE cites a scripture using the greek term proskuneu ... a word used for "worship" or "obescience" given to kings, to priests, to family members to angels .... it's also given to Yahweh, but if you say that Jesus receiving proskuneu means he is Yahweh ... then King David was Yahweh ... then Esau was yahweh .... but Jesus is never given Latreuo, a term for worship in Greek that is EXCLUSIVELY religious.

So those cited scriptures don't support your claim AT ALL, 0+0+0 to a million STILL = 0.

And linking me to an article by James white isn't making an argument.

If you think those verses support your claim, QUOTE THEM, and make the argument, that is honest debating. Copying and pasting a website that cites scriptures without quoting them or making ANY argument isn't debating.

Seriously Tosca1, I thought you were better than this. If you want I can just copy and paste a ton of scriptures as well, but it won't get us anywhere, which is why in EVERY POST, I quote the scripture, in context and make a careful argument from it.

Now are we going to have a serious debate or what?


I'm not going to debate simply on the basis of your words alone.

Example with your assertion about the word, "Adoni," I gave the explanation - AND MY SOURCE. You won't accept it, and still insists on your own, and you don't give any source to boot!


I can see it now....this is like that Greek discussion we had! Answering to your ad is a big mistake.
 
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I'm not going to debate simply on the basis of your words alone.

Example with your assertion about the word, "Adoni," I gave the explanation - AND MY SOURCE. You won't accept it and insists on your own, and you don't give any source to boot!


I can see it now....this is like that Greek discussion we had! Answering to your ad is a big mistake.

I read the source, the ONLY Adoni thing there was Psalms 110:1, which I already showed isn't a reference to Yahweh.

Hebrew Concordance: ??·??·nî -- 161 Occurrences

There are the Adoni uses in the OT .... Find one that refers to Yahweh .... I'll find you 161 uses for humans .... find me one for Yahweh.
 
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I read the source, the ONLY Adoni thing there was Psalms 110:1, which I already showed isn't a reference to Yahweh.

Hebrew Concordance: ??·??·nî -- 161 Occurrences

There are the Adoni uses in the OT .... Find one that refers to Yahweh .... I'll find you 161 uses for humans .... find me one for Yahweh.


I don't care what you read, especially, how you choose to understand it. That doesn't matter.

The Hebrew site stated that Adoni is also another name for God.

Now that we've wasted our third post bickering over your whining - it's time to give our conclusion. I don't have the time right now since I'm headed for work. Go ahead and give yours.
 

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I don't care what you read, especially, how you choose to understand it. That doesn't matter.

The Hebrew site stated that Adoni is also another name for God.

Now that we've wasted our third post bickering over your whining - it's time to give our conclusion. I don't have the time right now since I'm headed for work. Go ahead and give yours.

No it didn't, read the link, it stated that Adon (the root Word from which Adoni and Adonai and so one come from) is used as another name for God, HOWEVER, the Word Adoni is NEVER used for Yahweh, the one citation of Adoni the website used was Psalm 110:1, which was the very scripture I was quoting to show how Jesus cannot be Yahweh, and I linked to all the occurrences in the bible of Adoni, if you can find one that refers to Yahweh, let me know, but I can save you the time, there isn't one.

I'll start the conclusion.
 

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No it didn't, read the link, it stated that Adon (the root Word from which Adoni and Adonai and so one come from) is used as another name for God, HOWEVER, the Word Adoni is NEVER used for Yahweh, the one citation of Adoni the website used was Psalm 110:1, which was the very scripture I was quoting to show how Jesus cannot be Yahweh, and I linked to all the occurrences in the bible of Adoni, if you can find one that refers to Yahweh, let me know, but I can save you the time, there isn't one.

I'll start the conclusion.

GOD is YAHWEH.
 

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Since you had the first post, you can do the conclusion first, or we can make it longer if you'd like.
 

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Since you had the first post, you can do the conclusion first, or we can make it longer if you'd like.

What's the point of making it longer? :lol:

Okay, I'll do the conclusion first.
 

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CONCLUSION


As stated, by showing through the verses in the Bible, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Bible teaches Yahweh and Jesus are One. Yahweh became incarnate as Jesus - whom He introduced as His Only Begotten Son - to redeem us, and to show us by example how to love and glorify, and be dutiful to our Father. In other words, He taught us what would please the Father. He should know!

RGacky3 made a valiant effort to promote his own understanding of Jesus, but it is a pathetic and futile effort, simply because the truth is on my side.


1. Review all my posts. The Biblical facts speak for themselves.


2. All your attempts at rebuttals and refutations cannot be taken seriously since most were simply your personal opinion. You failed to provide any basis to your assertions - particularly regarding word translations - even when I hotly contested and proved you wrong, and gave supporting evidences to support my claims. Your feeble attempt at rebuttal was to insist that your explanation is right, and that I should take your word as evidence itself.

I cannot consider your arguments based on your words alone. Even if you claim to have taken your position from some sources, I still cannot accept them simply on the basis of your words. It is a must that we have access to your
source(s) that we may read for ourselves what they indeed say.

To put it bluntly, your ability to understand what you read is in question.

Look how you understood John 10.

John 10:
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”


RGacky3 claims:
This is very important .... The enemies of Jesus claim that Jesus is blashpheming by making himself Equal to God .... How does Jesus respond? He could have responeded saying "I AM Equal to God," he could have quoted a scripture referencing himself as Yahweh. He didn't.

Why will He say He's equal to God when that's not what He was saying at all? That's not what He was being accused of for blasphemy. Read this part again.

"...because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”

The people were not accusing Him of saying He is equal to God. They were accusing Him of saying, "HE IS GOD!"

He said in John 10: 30 (the part that RGacky3 had overlooked):
I and the Father are one.”


And without access to your sources, how do we know you didn't edit, or leave out, or taken the content of what you'd read out of context? The same way you did to John 10!

I hope you don't belatedly try to rebutt the samples I'd given (and try to turn this into an on-going dabate).
Rebuttals are over.



3. Several names and titles of God were given and accorded to Jesus, by different prophets from the Old Testament to the New.

You also agreed that the title of Yahweh was bestowed on the Messiah.



Jeremiah 23
5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


RGacky3
Jeremiah 23:5,6 is easy, he is called Yahweh our righteousness ….

Why will Yahweh call the Messiah, Yahweh?



4. CONSISTENCY. Consistency with all the other verses. That's the key to knowing if we understand the message correctly, or when we're being fed false teachings.

All your feeble attempts at rebuttals and refutations are hitting against brick walls.....and all your interpretations are conflicting with a lot of verses throughout the Bible.



5. John 14 not only shows the Triunity of God, but also shows Yahweh and Jesus are One.

The Father Revealed

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.



Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, Jesus says.

"Believe Me", He emphatically instructs. As a Christian, do you? Do you believe Him?

So when I say Jesus and YAHWEH as One.....I'm merely repeating what Jesus explained, almost verbatim.

If you don't like what you read and don't agree with that, your problem is not with me. Your problem is with Jesus - what He stated in the Bible.

There are only 3 options left to choose here - either you agree that Jesus is Yahweh incarnated as Son of God, or the Bible is unreliable, or you don't think Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.

It's either you take the Bible in its entirety, or you don't really believe it's the Word of God.
 
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Conclusion.

Every single argument that Tocsa1 posted requires either translations to English, or it requires you to not read the context.

Tosca argues that because the messiah is called "Yahweh is Our righteousness" in Jeremiah he must be Yahweh, yet he won't extend that same Logic to the city of Jerusalem where it is called "yahweh is Our rightouesness" in the same book.

Because Jesus says "me and the father are one," or the "father is in me" or "the father is in union With me" in John it means ontological samenesss, yet when the EXACT SAME Words are used about the apostles WITHIN the context of Jesus talking about his relationship to yahweh (that they are one JUST AS him and the father are one, that they are in him just as he is in the father) Tosca1 wants us to ignore it.

John 17
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.


When Tosca1 claims that him being called Immanel makes him God, why doesn't he apply the same Logic to Elijah, or the tons of other People who have names With El or Yahweh in them.

Then he goes to the Genesis plurality, claiming it MUST refer to Jesus, yet he simply ignores the explination in Proberbs about the wisdom of God personified. This is scripture explaining scripture, but Tosca1 doesn't want to allow scripture to speak for itself, for scripture to interperate scripture, he wants his theology to dictate scripture.

When I make the point about Psalms 110:1 THE MOST QUOTED SCRIPTURE ABOUT JESUS, which is Yahweh talking to Adoni (my lord), saying to Adoni (my lord), that he will sit at the right hand of God .... showing that Yahweh is speaking to a completely different being, and I say Adoni is NEVER USED to refer to yahweh, not once.

He links to an article saying that Adon [from which the Words Adonai (Our lord, a Word which always refers to Yahweh) and Adoni (my lord, a Word which NEVER refers to Yahweh) come form] can sometimes refer to yahweh ... so what? Of coarse Adon can refer to Yahweh since Adonai Always refers to Yahweh, howeever that wasn't my point, my point was Adoni NEVER refers to yahweh, and the verse itself proves that Yahweh is talking to Adoni, a different being.

When it comes to John 10, first of all the "father and me are one" means what it means IN CONTEXT WITH JOHN 17 (which he ignores, refuses to see the Connection) .... but even in the Chapter it Jesus explains.

John 10:
33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand[e] that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”


Is that something Jesus would say if he was Yahweh? Would he put himself in the category With judges, who are also called gods? And then re-state that he is "God's Son"? No he wouldn't, and again it must be taken in the context of John 17. Jesus showed that "god" does not only apply to Yahweh, and that he is only claiming to be God's son and doing the Works of his father .... This is the response to the Charge, the Jews in that verse were making a FALSE CHARGE.

Then he goes to copy and paste from a website that lists tons and tons of scriptures, in a pathetic and dishonest debate tactic akin to throwing mud against the wall hoping it will stick knowing I won't have the time to tear Down all of it. But believe me, every single one of those verses do not claim what the website says they claim, (these are old arguments that have been disproven by me and others many times).

I took 2 examples of where the website LIES. They say when Jesus says "that you may believe that I am (or I am he, translated from ego eimi)" in John 8:58 it's really a Reference to Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh says "you may tell them that I AM (trasnlated from Ho ON) has sent you" Yet the greek Words used are not the same, there simply IS NO Connection, the argument requires you to not know or not see the origional Language.

They also claim that because Jesus is worshiped (proskuneu) then it means he is God because only God can recieve worship, dispite the fact that the Word for worship refering to Yahweh alone (religious worship) is actually Latreuo. Infact Proskuneu is used for tons of People, King David, familiy members, patriarchs, kings, angels .... and so on ... but Latreuo is use only for Yahweh, so Jesus recieving proskuneu doesn't mean he is Yahweh anymore than David recieving proskuneu means HE is Yahweh.

Now these 2 examples are either a result of ignorance, i.e. the writer of the website has never read the greek or done his Research or doesn't even own a study bible (It's pretty pathetic if a ministry organization doesn't have a study bible or have any Access to People that can read greek) or it's a blatent lie (which I suspect it is).

These are Tosca1's arguments, and 0+0+0+0=0, none of his arguments hold any water whatsoever.

What about the Shema, Tosca1 tried to pretend that the Ehud could mean a compound unity or something ... that wasn't the point, the point was Jesus agreed With the Jewish scribes understanding of the Shema ... what is the Jewish traditional understanding of the Shema, it's that it proclaims a strict monotheist Unitarian nature of yahweh, that has ALWAYS been the case.

John 17:3 .... Jesus says it right there, the Father is the only true God, didn't see any real response.

All the scriptures showing Jesus HAS a God (John 20:17, 1 Peter 1:3, Romans 15:6 and so on and so forth) ... nothing, no response.

The scripture showing that Jesus' head is God in the same way the Church's head is Jesus .... no response.

When the post ressurection Jesus SUBMITS to God, after RECIEVING authority from God ... what was the response ... he ignores it ... starts talking about Death and ressurection ... totally ignores the Jesus submitting to God part.

John 14:28, No repsonse.

Psalms 110:1 - we already saw the response, totally ignoring it really, just arguing about the Word "adon" a strawman.

So in the End what do we have.

Tosca1, throughly refuted arguments, arguments dependant on NOT Reading context, NOT letting scripture interperate scripture, NOT being consistant With Language and naming, and selective Application, or linking to websites that outright Lie about the Language.

And me, arguements based on CLEAR TESTIMONY from scriptrue, none refuted, obvious and blatent statements by Jesus, by Paul, Jesus has a God, and that God is Our God, Yahweh. The scriptures arn't vague, they don't contradict each other, they are Clear, you don't have to read in between the lines to get Your theology, The scriptures are Clear.

John 10:17
‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

Jesus is the lord (adoni) that sits at the right hand of Yahweh. He is NOT yahweh.
 
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