Truce!

[bub]

Within 2 days, Egypt is gonna announce a new 18-months truce in Gaza

7s7 Israel-Palestine - Un accord de trêve de 18 mois entre le Hamas et Israël (690994)

Hamas had talked a few days ago about a truce. They asked the same thing that before the raid: the end of the blockade.

And that's what is going to happen: 6 points of entry will be open, and every military activity is going to stop.

 

[moe]

Within 2 days, Egypt is gonna announce a new 18-months truce in Gaza

7s7 Israel-Palestine - Un accord de trêve de 18 mois entre le Hamas et Israël (690994)

Hamas had talked a few days ago about a truce. They asked the same thing that before the raid: the end of the blockade.

And that's what is going to happen: 6 points of entry will be open, and every military activity is going to stop.

Lets just hope that it all holds together and some lunatic does not screw everything up. Praying for both side in this move.

Moe

 

[Vader]

Within 2 days, Egypt is gonna announce a new 18-months truce in Gaza

7s7 Israel-Palestine - Un accord de trêve de 18 mois entre le Hamas et Israël (690994)

Hamas had talked a few days ago about a truce. They asked the same thing that before the raid: the end of the blockade.

And that's what is going to happen: 6 points of entry will be open, and every military activity is going to stop.

Hamas will ruin this truce like they have ruined every other truce.

 

[bub]

Hamas will ruin this truce like they have ruined every other truce.

Yes. It's always the Hamas fault.

 

[bhkad]

Within 2 days, Egypt is gonna announce a new 18-months truce in Gaza

7s7 Israel-Palestine - Un accord de trêve de 18 mois entre le Hamas et Israël (690994)

Hamas had talked a few days ago about a truce. They asked the same thing that before the raid: the end of the blockade.

And that's what is going to happen: 6 points of entry will be open, and every military activity is going to stop.

In Islamic tradition there is something called a Hudna.

"What is being touted as a 'cease-fire' is something called a 'hudna.' A hudna [also known as a hudibiyya or khudaibiya] is a tactical cease-fire that allows the Arabs to rebuild their terrorist infrastructure in order to be more effective when the "cease-fire" is called off." -- "Cease-fire?" by Shira A. Drissman

The Hudna or temporary peace: the value of Arab Truces

If they stop smuggling rockets into Gaza then this 'truce' might last. But the Gazans are very (as Laila might say) clever.

 

[bhkad]

Yes. It's always the Hamas fault.

If not ALL the time then most of the time it's the Arab's fault.

 

[gree0232]

Interesting. I assume that Israel will import more bombs for its F-16's during this period as well. I assume they will also continue to recruit and train the IDF, as well as conduct warfighting exercises to prepare for any eventuallity.

I assume that after 18 months Israel will still be able to launch a disproportionate response to any homemade rockets coming from Gaza? Of course, this assumes that Hamas is stupid and will continue a failed tactic. This assumes that enemies don't adapt. This assumes that none of the more radical elements in Hamas were paying attention during the Mumbai attacks.

Yep, those rockets are definitely the problem here, and their removal will magically solve everything.

The problem is the lack of Palestinian State (E. Jerusalem, West Bank border, illegal settlements, and disefranchisement and economic despair that resulted), and let us hope that Israel moves twoard that two state solution with the gift of peace it has been given.

 

[moe]

Yep, those rockets are definitely the problem here, and their removal will magically solve everything.

Yes those rockets are the problem. No rockets no response to the rockets. i.e. Hezbollah. No rockets from Lebanon no bombs in downtown Beirut. Problem solved. After that you can work on solving other problems.

The problem is the lack of Palestinian State (E. Jerusalem, West Bank border,

You seem so adamant that this is the real solution. The real problem. And yet Israel began with in it's own borders in 48 and the Arabs attacked then. Israel has given back all the lands that she has taken. On one hand you accuse of Israel of not offering all Arab Palestinians Israeli citizenship, On the other you accuse them of not being willing to establish a Palestine state even though before the Hamas came to power they were willing to sit down and do just that. It was the terror groups that put the whammy on that. But for some reason that is Israel's fault to. Thus you have successfully solidified your position in the everything is Israel's fault camp of the DP forum.

Now I will certainly agree with you that there needs to be a Palestinian state. But here is what will change even if they do get a state. Rather then having a stateless people conducting terrorist operations against Israel you will now have a recognized state conducting terror operations against Israel because the establishment of a state is not the long term goal of the militants but rather the complete elimination of the Jewish state. This should be obvious because they could have had a state way back when Arafat was running the show. So considering that the Militants themselves have intentionally sabotaged every peace process towards establishing a state it does not take a West Point education to figure out that there must be another objective in mind and that a stateless people better serves their true intended purpose rather than a established state.

As to the weapons replacement what is the purpose of Israel replacing its weapons and why is Hamas replacing their? Hamas needs rocket type weapons for what? Traffic control?

There is a big difference between rearming for defensive purposes and rearming for offensive purposes. Also as Bkhd stated, A Muslim truce is different than how we interpret truce.
It as not seen as a step towards peace but rather used as strategy. The truce lasts until they feel they are strong enough to fight again.

Moe

 

[gree0232]

"Yes those rockets are the problem. No rockets no response to the rockets. i.e. Hezbollah. No rockets from Lebanon no bombs in downtown Beirut. Problem solved. After that you can work on solving other problems."

Moe, you are very wrong here. The rockets are a symptom of the problem. It is akin to treating bacterial infection in a leg, when the real culprit is anemic blood due to cancer. Your are treating the symptom rather than the disease.

The problem is that Paletsinians want to resist. Why do they want to resist?

There borders are largely reconginzed the world over as OCCUPIED. They have never been annexed into Israel, and they never will be. They are ready to go their own way, and being occupied implies that your land will one day be returned and that, if not, you've probably got a fight on your hand.

You cannot solve the problem without violence if one, you only use violence, two, you ignore those willing to talk to you, three, you put an embargo around another, stick your fingers in your ears, and refuse to believe that the other might even want to talk to you.

The rockets are not the problem. They are silent now, and things are not magically better. Go figure. In fact, they look pretty darn bad.

 

[Jakers]

Within 2 days, Egypt is gonna announce a new 18-months truce in Gaza

7s7 Israel-Palestine - Un accord de trêve de 18 mois entre le Hamas et Israël (690994)

Hamas had talked a few days ago about a truce. They asked the same thing that before the raid: the end of the blockade.

And that's what is going to happen: 6 points of entry will be open, and every military activity is going to stop.

Israel makes a lot of promises. It actually keeps next to none of them. We'll see what they do or don't do this time.

 

[bhkad]

Israel makes a lot of promises. It actually keeps next to none of them. We'll see what they do or don't do this time.

Name some of Israel's broken promises, please.

I always thought it was the Arabs who broke promises or else failed to make them in the first place, thus, stalemating the peace process.

 

[bhkad]

Interesting. I assume that Israel will import more bombs for its F-16's during this period as well. I assume they will also continue to recruit and train the IDF, as well as conduct warfighting exercises to prepare for any eventuallity.

I assume that after 18 months Israel will still be able to launch a disproportionate response to any homemade rockets coming from Gaza? Of course, this assumes that Hamas is stupid and will continue a failed tactic. This assumes that enemies don't adapt. This assumes that none of the more radical elements in Hamas were paying attention during the Mumbai attacks.

Yep, those rockets are definitely the problem here, and their removal will magically solve everything.

The problem is the lack of Palestinian State (E. Jerusalem, West Bank border, illegal settlements, and disefranchisement and economic despair that resulted), and let us hope that Israel moves twoard that two state solution with the gift of peace it has been given.

Your argument barely holds water on the ether of the internet and in real life it holds none at all.

The Palestinians are part of Israel and Israel provides NATIONAL defense for all Israelis. It is the responsibility of Israel to maintain her defenses.

But as long as the Palestinians fail to grant Israel the promise of peaceful co-existence they will never have peace for themselves.

I read somewhere that Arabs just love to fight. If they had no enemies to fight they would fight their cousins. If they had no cousins they would fight their brothers.

Allowing them to re-arm is just giving them the means to fight the Israelis.

They don't want peace or else they would have it by now.

They don't want a nation of their own or else they'd have it by now.

Recognizing Israel's right to exist solves the problem yet the Palestinians won't do it.

What does that tell us?

 

[Degreez]

Name some of Israel's broken promises, please.

I always thought it was the Arabs who broke promises or else failed to make them in the first place, thus, stalemating the peace process.

How about the number of barriers and checkpoints in the West Bank? They promised to reduce them, however the amount of physical barriers in the West Bank have increased from 500 to 600.

 

[bhkad]

How about the number of barriers and checkpoints in the West Bank? They promised to reduce them, however the amount of physical barriers in the West Bank have increased from 500 to 600.

I see that as being a separate issue from that of bringing about peace. Whether there are 600 barriers or 800 barriers or zero barriers the Palestinians have continued to deny Israel the peace it tries to secure through every means imaginable.

 

[gree0232]

bhkad:
Palestinians are not citizens of Israel. You knew that right?

The West Bank and Gaza Strip are listed as occupied. You knew that right?

I've been to a few places in the Middle East, have you? Before we start lecturing people in public about how their ideas "barely holds water on the ether of the internet" maybe we should see if our own are at least fact based?

Israel and people that live there are real. Your imaginary vision of Israel certainly missed some key points, like the lack of Palestinian citizenship.

 

[Degreez]

I see that as being a separate issue from that of bringing about peace. Whether there are 600 barriers or 800 barriers or zero barriers the Palestinians have continued to deny Israel the peace it tries to secure through every means imaginable.

Oh so, these physical barriers aren't even barriers to peace according to you?

Here's another broken promise. Israel promised at least 30% aid to come into Gaza after the first ceasefire (the 6-month ceasefire), with a steady increase in the percentage every month. They allowed variants of 10%-20% into Gaza whenever they felt like it.

 

[gal]

How about the number of barriers and checkpoints in the West Bank? They promised to reduce them, however the amount of physical barriers in the West Bank have increased from 500 to 600.

As a person who knows what he is talking about. decreasing the amount of checkpoints would be catastrophical to israel! in the the outbreak of the second intifada there were less then 250 barriers and a lot less arrests were issued what happned???? over a 1000 dead israeils in suicide bombings! 600-700 barriers and an avrage daily of a high numbers of arres is what giving israel the edge in the war on terror. i feel very sorry about hurting palestinian rights. but none is made intentioally. this is all an outcome of terror. if the ileglle armnet of palestinians militia will stop. if all hostile groups will disarms themselves then the arrests will stop! and the number of checkpoints will dramaticly be stopped. checkpoints and arrests are an outcome of something. of terror.
i remember a time when we were afraid to leave home in fear of suicide bomber. never again! even in the price, as much as I hate it, of hurting palestinians rights which unfortunatly an outcome of arrests and checkpoints.

green do you have a better solution for checkpoints and arrests?

 

[Vader]

Oh so, these physical barriers aren't even barriers to peace according to you?

Here's another broken promise. Israel promised at least 30% aid to come into Gaza after the first ceasefire (the 6-month ceasefire), with a steady increase in the percentage every month. They allowed variants of 10%-20% into Gaza whenever they felt like it.

The physical barriers keep Hamas terrorists out of Israel. When Hamas stops brainwashing children into sucide monkeys for allah THEN AND ONLY THEN can the barriers be removed.

 

[Degreez]

The physical barriers keep Hamas terrorists out of Israel. When Hamas stops brainwashing children into sucide monkeys for allah THEN AND ONLY THEN can the barriers be removed.

The barriers that are being discussed are the ones in the West Bank, not the one blockading Gaza. These are mainly checkpoints, splitting up the West Bank from total PA control.

 

[bhkad]

bhkad:
Palestinians are not citizens of Israel. You knew that right?

The West Bank and Gaza Strip are listed as occupied. You knew that right?

I've been to a few places in the Middle East, have you? Before we start lecturing people in public about how their ideas "barely holds water on the ether of the internet" maybe we should see if our own are at least fact based?

Israel and people that live there are real. Your imaginary vision of Israel certainly missed some key points, like the lack of Palestinian citizenship.

I know that Israel provides them protection from external threats and Israel provides them utilities and services like water and electricity. And I know that if the Palestinians had the right to vote in Israeli elections there would be no more Israel.

I know that on some Palestinian maps Israel doesn't even exist as a state or anything at all.

I know the Israeli people have the unenviable luck of having a counterpart such as the Palestinians as the proverbial 'neighbors from hell.'

I know that the Palestinians could have had peace AND access to Jerusalem AND their own separate nation by now if they wanted it.

They remain intransigent so they bring upon themselves all the injustice and woe you complain of.

Visiting a place can sometimes confuse our understanding of the principles at work.

The principle is that the Jews understand that there is a unique relationship that the Palestinians have to the land but they have no superior claim to the land than the Jews. They can't get past that idea so they stay stuck and they keep the Israelis hostage in the bargain.

 

[bhkad]

Oh so, these physical barriers aren't even barriers to peace according to you?

Here's another broken promise. Israel promised at least 30% aid to come into Gaza after the first ceasefire (the 6-month ceasefire), with a steady increase in the percentage every month. They allowed variants of 10%-20% into Gaza whenever they felt like it.

There's an old song that says, "a man only does what a woman makes him do."

I think that Israel only does what the Palestinians make them do.

Rule of thumb: From now on whenever you list something the Israelis have done or haven't done that riles you up look FIRST to see what the Palestinians did to provoke the Israeli actions.

I truly believe you'll see a phenomenon at work called 'cause and effect.'

 

[bhkad]

The barriers that are being discussed are the ones in the West Bank, not the one blockading Gaza. These are mainly checkpoints, splitting up the West Bank from total PA control.

What did the Palestinians in the West Bank do to cause this?

 

[Degreez]

What did the Palestinians in the West Bank do to cause this?

Move around freely?

They promised to reduce the number of checkpoints in Gaza. Why did they increase them and do the complete opposite of that which they promised?

 

[gree0232]

bkhad:
Well, they sent suicide bombers into Israel of course.

Now what did Israel do to cause the suicide bombers to be sent toward Israel?

They refused to the Clinton Peace proposal and initiated policies that attempted to incoporate Palestine into Israel proper and force the Palestinian people to go (well, I guess somewhere else).

A suicide bomber is a weapon. However henious, it too has a trigger just like an F-16 joystick that releases a bomb from 20,000 feet in the air. When they go off, do you know what the difference is on the ground? Not a whole lot.

The intifada convinced Israel it couldn't incoporate Palestine proper without a fight: Palestinian policy objective met.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When two parties are involved and intertwined, there is no one side that is either competely innocent or completely guilty.

What you are saying polically is the equivalent of saying that all democrats are always right and all republicans are always wrong. The real world doesn't work that way.

 

[bhkad]

Move around freely?

They promised to reduce the number of checkpoints in Gaza. Why did they increase them and do the complete opposite of that which they promised?

There must be a reason. The Israelis seldom do something without provocation and the Palestinian supporters seldom mention the Palestinian's role in these exchanges and so they lose credibility.

My guess is that the majority of new supporters for the Palestinian cause come from people totally unfamiliar with the history of the conflict; people who are swayed by the images of suffering and the David vs Goliath first glance appearance. Those people see this drama being played out and make up their mind based on their emotions. But rationally it all boils down to Palestinian stubbornness.

As soon as they recognize Israel's right to exist everything will change for the better for everyone.