Transgenderism 101

[Craig234]

Consider your gender.

Now, imagine your body switched to the other gender, but your brain didn't. You still 'feel' your old gender.

That's transgender, basically. Science is learning about how the brain works, that while there is biological gender, there is also part of the brain that has you 'feel' like you are a gender, which usually but not always matched the gender of your body.

For a long time, hundreds, thousands of years, this wasn't really understood; people simply felt that way, but didn't understand it themselves and clearly recognized society wasn't understanding, and so they kept the situation quiet.

Now, between our increased communication where people can share their experience, and science studying it, we're learning more about what it is. People who are rational and decent learn about it and treat people decently.

Other people just react with 'ewww' and dislike and mockery of the idea they don't understand. The words "gender identity" mean nothing to them. And political interests who want plutocracy recognize the issue is one they can exploit those people on, by pandering to their hostility to the topic, and using scare tactics like 'letting men watch your daughter use the bathroom' to get votes to take all the money for themselves.

 

[Killer Clouds]

BS!

 

[AmNat]

Consider your gender.

Now, imagine your body switched to the other gender, but your brain didn't. You still 'feel' your old gender.

That's transgender, basically. Science is learning about how the brain works, that while there is biological gender, there is also part of the brain that has you 'feel' like you are a gender, which usually but not always matched the gender of your body.

For a long time, hundreds, thousands of years, this wasn't really understood; people simply felt that way, but didn't understand it themselves and clearly recognized society wasn't understanding, and so they kept the situation quiet.

Now, between our increased communication where people can share their experience, and science studying it, we're learning more about what it is. People who are rational and decent learn about it and treat people decently.

Other people just react with 'ewww' and dislike and mockery of the idea they don't understand. The words "gender identity" mean nothing to them. And political interests who want plutocracy recognize the issue is one they can exploit those people on, by pandering to their hostility to the topic, and using scare tactics like 'letting men watch your daughter use the bathroom' to get votes to take all the money for themselves.

I feel sorry for people who actually have delusional disorders like this. I have nothing but contempt for educated people who promote it for ideological reasons.

 

[Craig234]

BS!

Could you summarize your argument into a shorter text? On the other hand, you proved my point.

 

[Excast]

I feel sorry for people who actually have delusional disorders like this. I have nothing but contempt for educated people who promote it for ideological reasons.

I'm sure you used to say the same about same sex couples and your parents were likely saying similar about interracial couples.

Conservatives, as always, will never move in the direction of social equality for those outside their narrow view of "normal".

 

[AmNat]

I'm sure you used to say the same about same sex couples and your parents were likely saying similar about interracial couples.

Conservatives, as always, will never move in the direction of social equality for those outside their narrow view of "normal".

Homosexuality is deviant, but not indicative of actual mental disturbance in the way that thinking you're a women when you're a man (or vice versa) is.

I don't have a particular problem with interracial relationships, but neither do I have a problem with people who oppose them.

 

[Killer Clouds]

I'm sure you used to say the same about same sex couples and your parents were likely saying similar about interracial couples.

Conservatives, as always, will never move in the direction of social equality for those outside their narrow view of "normal".

They are not normal. Accepting insanity as normal is what the DCP does. If you want to follow the science the fact is if you're born with a punishment you're a male. If you're born with a vagina you're female. That is biological fact and nothing can change that. Believing otherwise is insane.

 

[Craig234]

They are not normal. Accepting insanity as normal is what the DCP does. If you want to follow the science the fact is if you're born with a punishment you're a male. If you're born with a vagina you're female. That is biological fact and nothing can change that. Believing otherwise is insane.

" Other people just react with 'ewww' and dislike and mockery of the idea they don't understand. The words "gender identity" mean nothing to them. And political interests who want plutocracy recognize the issue is one they can exploit those people on, by pandering to their hostility to the topic, and using scare tactics like 'letting men watch your daughter use the bathroom' to get votes to take all the money for themselves. "

 

[Lisa]

I feel sorry for people who actually have delusional disorders like this. I have nothing but contempt for educated people who promote it for ideological reasons.

You have made this claim before y but you have yet to put forth any shred of evidence that trans people are delusional. Where is your evidence of trans people being delusional?

Who are promoting people being transgendered?

 

[Evilroddy]

@Craig234

Gender dysphoria and the second paragraph (and foundational paragraph) of your post both seem rooted in close association with a fantastical distortion of a biological reality. That a writer has to create an, "If the sky was green" situation for others to better understand what transgender folks feel cuts both ways. It may be an intellectual or empathetic bridge to a different way of being or it could underline to some that such a fantastical jump of perception is just that - fantastical, not real. That is the pitfall of such an approach. It both illuminates a new way of thinking and confirms a bias that some, like me, still have of the futility of leading an illusory lifestyle rooted in a fantastical foundation.

Apologies to any harmed or offended by my speaking so bluntly but that is how I see this issue to date. I hope to be proved wrong at some point by reason (not emotion or social brow-beating) and to be shown the error of my position rationally, but so far, I am still rooted to my old bias because no one has made a persuasive case to move me off my bias rooted in reason.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Lisa]

@Craig234

Gender dysphoria and the second paragraph (and foundational paragraph) of your post both seem rooted in close association with a fantastical distortion of a biological reality. That a writer has to create an, "If the sky was green" situation for others to better understand what transgender folks feel cuts both ways. It may be an intellectual or empathetic bridge to a different way of being or it could underline to some that such a fantastical jump of perception is just that - fantastical, not real. That is the pitfall of such an approach. It both illuminates a new way of thinking and confirms a bias that some, like me, still have of the futility of leading an illusory lifestyle rooted in a fantastical foundation.

Apologies to any harmed or offended by my speaking so bluntly but that is how I see this issue to date. I hope to be proved wrong at some point by reason (not emotion or social brow-beating) and to be shown the error of my position rationally, but so far, I am still rooted to my old bias because no one has made a persuasive case to move me off my bias rooted in reason.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Please explain this phrase. What is the transgendered lifestyle?

still have of the futility of leading an illusory lifestyle rooted in a fantastical foundation.

 

[Evilroddy]

Please explain this phrase. What is the transgendered lifestyle?

Lisa:

I did not use the phrase "transgender lifestyle" in my post. If I had, I hope I would have had the presence of mind to say "transgender lifestyles", as I don't imagine all transgender folks leading a monolithic lifestyle. What I said was an "an illusory lifestyle". That means a lifestyle divorced from an objective reality, which puts more emphasis on a subjective reality.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Lisa]

Lisa:

I did not use the phrase "transgender lifestyle" in my post. If I had, I hope I would have had the presence of mind to say "transgender lifestyles", as I don't imagine all transgender folks leading a monolithic lifestyle. What I said was an "an illusory lifestyle". That means a lifestyle divorced from an objective reality, which puts more emphasis on a subjective reality.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Are you aware of this research that says that people who are transgendered have brains that are more like the brain of their identified gender in function than their biological gender? Is that also an illusion? Your idea seems to be similar to AmNat that transgender people are delusional.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Craig234]

Gender dysphoria and the second paragraph (and foundational paragraph) of your post both seem rooted in close association with a fantastical distortion of a biological reality.

No, they don't - that is a statement from ignorance. As if you have an understanding of the fantastically complicated brain functions around sexuality and gender. Not that it takes being an expert, but the basics. When you are a horse led to water in my OP, you don't want to drink, you want to argue the water is a mirage.

I hope to be proved wrong at some point by reason (not emotion or social brow-beating) and to be shown the error of my position rationally, but so far, I am still rooted to my old bias because no one has made a persuasive case to move me off my bias rooted in reason.

I hope that's sincere and not the latest right-wing trolling technique. How much effort have you made to learn anything? Have you watched first-hand stories of transgender people explaining their experiences? It comes across like 'I haven't seen a persuasive case yet written in German, and by the way, I don't speak German.' Go watch some interviews, and learn, and then read some science and learn more.

 

[Craig234]

I did not use the phrase "transgender lifestyle" in my post. If I had, I hope I would have had the presence of mind to say "transgender lifestyles", as I don't imagine all transgender folks leading a monolithic lifestyle. What I said was an "an illusory lifestyle". That means a lifestyle divorced from an objective reality, which puts more emphasis on a subjective reality.

Brain function is what creates 'subjective'. That doesn't make it false. Your sense of gender identity is subjective yet based on physical brain design and hormones. If I remove the part of your brain giving you gender identity, you will lose any sense of being your gender or any gender. I'd guess the whole idea will begin to seem alien to you, like sex seems 'weird and icky' to young children if they hear of it.

 

[Evilroddy]

Are you aware of this research that says that people who are transgendered have brains that are more like the brain of their identified gender in function than their biological gender? Is that also an illusion? Your idea seems to be similar to AmNat that transgender people are delusional.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Lisa:

Yes, I am aware of this article because I read it when you posted it in another thread about JK Rowlings. Thank you for that. However I am skeptical of what is often reported in politically charged scientific debates and thus read a wide variety of scientific papers to get a more wide perspective on the state of research in any particular field of study. The 2018 paper your report is based upon is a preliminary paper and even the authors of the paper acknowledged the need for far more research before coming to hard conclusions about the biochemical roots of transgenderism and gender dysphoria.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

Craig234:

No, they don't - that is a statement from ignorance. As if you have an understanding of the fantastically complicated brain functions around sexuality and gender. Not that it takes being an expert, but the basics. When you are a horse led to water in my OP, you don't want to drink, you want to argue the water is a mirage.

You wrote in your second paragraph:

Now, imagine your body switched to the other gender, but your brain didn't. You still 'feel' your old gender.

That is a fantastical fiction which you have created as your foundational device for building understanding and empathy. Transgenderism - the idea of a disconnect between sex and gender identity and gender dysphoria - the stress and distress felt by some transgender people is a breach between an objective reality of sex and a subjective reality of gender. When the subjective conflicts with the objective reality you have an illusory perception, a fantasy.

I hope that's sincere and not the latest right-wing trolling technique. How much effort have you made to learn anything? Have you watched first-hand stories of transgender people explaining their experiences? It comes across like 'I haven't seen a persuasive case yet written in German, and by the way, I don't speak German.' Go watch some interviews, and learn, and then read some science and learn more.

No. This is a sincere hope and not a right-wing scheme or set of talking points.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Craig234]

That is a fantastical fiction which you have created as your foundational device for building understanding and empathy.

You're trying to conflate 'imagine something' in order to gain some understanding with the actual condition. If I said 'imagine your hands were cut off' for a similar purpose, it might be 'fantastical', but it doesn't change the real situation for people without hands. You seem very resistant to listening or learning and only wanting to argue against things while wanting to look open-minded. Note the zero response from you to my suggestions. Says it all.

 

[Lisa]

Lisa:

Yes, I am aware of this article because I read it when you posted it in another thread about JK Rowlings. Thank you for that. However I am skeptical of what is often reported in politically charged scientific debates and thus read a wide variety of scientific papers to get a more wide perspective on the state of research in any particular field of study. The 2018 paper your report is based upon is a preliminary paper and even the authors of the paper acknowledged the need for far more research before coming to hard conclusions about the biochemical roots of transgenderism and gender dysphoria.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

There is no evidence that trans people are delusional.


This is from April of 2020. The facts do not change.

Transgender individuals (TIs) show brain-structural alterations that differ from their biological sex as well as their perceived gender. To substantiate evidence that the brain structure of TIs differs from male and female, we use a combined multivariate and univariate approach. Gray matter segments resulting from voxel-based morphometry preprocessing of N = 1753 cisgender (CG) healthy participants were used to train (N = 1402) and validate (20% holdout N = 351) a support-vector machine classifying the biological sex. As a second validation, we classified N = 1104 patients with depression. A third validation was performed using the matched CG sample of the transgender women (TW) application sample. Subsequently, the classifier was applied to N = 26 TW. Finally, we compared brain volumes of CG-men, women, and TW-pre/post treatment cross-sex hormone treatment (CHT) in a univariate analysis controlling for sexual orientation, age, and total brain volume. The application of our biological sex classifier to the transgender sample resulted in a significantly lower true positive rate (TPR-male = 56.0%). The TPR did not differ between CG-individuals with (TPR-male = 86.9%) and without depression (TPR-male = 88.5%). The univariate analysis of the transgender application-sample revealed that TW-pre/post treatment show brain-structural differences from CG-women and CG-men in the putamen and insula, as well as the whole-brain analysis. Our results support the hypothesis that brain structure in TW differs from brain structure of their biological sex (male) as well as their perceived gender (female). This finding substantiates evidence that TIs show specific brain-structural alterations leading to a different pattern of brain structure than CG-individuals.

Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased misclassification in transgender women - Neuropsychopharmacology

Transgender individuals (TIs) show brain-structural alterations that differ from their biological sex as well as their perceived gender. To substantiate evidence that the brain structure of TIs differs from male and female, we use a combined multivariate and univariate approach. Gray matter...

www.nature.com

This is from June of 2020.

Understanding the Brains of Transgender People: Are We There Yet? - De Gruyter Conversations

Over the last 25 years, scientists have become more and more keen on understanding the contribution of the brain in how transgender people feel about themselves. Although studies are increasing, neuroscientists are still trying to answer the question whether the brains of transgender people...

sciencediscoveries.degruyter.com

differences in brain function


In comparison to structural research, findings from functional brain imaging research (fMRI) have pointed more towards the similarity of transgender people’s brain activity to that of their self-identified gender, an effect that seems to start with puberty. These functional studies examined “sex-stereotypical” tasks that are hypothesized to differ between the sexes, including spatial and language abilities.

 

[Evilroddy]

Brain function is what creates 'subjective'. That doesn't make it false. Your sense of gender identity is subjective yet based on physical brain design and hormones. If I remove the part of your brain giving you gender identity, you will lose any sense of being your gender or any gender. I'd guess the whole idea will begin to seem alien to you, like sex seems 'weird and icky' to young children if they hear of it.

Sex (noun and adjective) is a biological trait and expresses itself almost always as one of two phenotypes female or male. The biochemistry behind sex can produce a spectrum of sexual variations on the two themes of male and female but the final expression is either female, male or very rarely mule (unable to reproduce). Gender is a social construct of how people should or want to act as a function of their sexuality. At this time there is no clear theory that biology directly and uniquely guides gender typing alone. The preponderance of evidence is that gender is still a social construct. That may change, but we ain't there yet as far as I know.

The brain creates artificial realities out of an almost unknowable objective physical reality around us. So objective reality is artificial but at least it is, in part, based on our biocentric ability to observe and understand our environment. Subjective reality is not based on objective reality and is thus a break from the discernible version of reality we find ourselves in at any given time or place. Thus it is illusory and fantastical.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Luther]

Consider your gender.

Now, imagine your body switched to the other gender, but your brain didn't. You still 'feel' your old gender.

That's transgender, basically. Science is learning about how the brain works, that while there is biological gender, there is also part of the brain that has you 'feel' like you are a gender, which usually but not always matched the gender of your body.

For a long time, hundreds, thousands of years, this wasn't really understood; people simply felt that way, but didn't understand it themselves and clearly recognized society wasn't understanding, and so they kept the situation quiet.

Now, between our increased communication where people can share their experience, and science studying it, we're learning more about what it is. People who are rational and decent learn about it and treat people decently.

Other people just react with 'ewww' and dislike and mockery of the idea they don't understand. The words "gender identity" mean nothing to them. And political interests who want plutocracy recognize the issue is one they can exploit those people on, by pandering to their hostility to the topic, and using scare tactics like 'letting men watch your daughter use the bathroom' to get votes to take all the money for themselves.

What restroom do they use Craig?(LOL)

 

[Evilroddy]

Lisa:

From your second linked article:

Differences in brain structure

Although study samples continue to be small, the findings – very cautiously – tend to suggest that transgender persons’ brain structures show more similarities to brains of people of the same biological sex than to those (cisgender people) whose gender they identify with. However, this depends heavily on the examined brain region, with some brain areas corresponding more to felt gender identity.

Moreover, the few available studies on gender-affirming hormonal treatments suggest brain plasticity; i.e. under hormonal treatment, transgender people’s brain structures shift towards those of their self-identified gender. Yet, the type of affected brain structure also differs between trans men and trans women.

In the balance, the article points out that the brains of transgender people more closely match their assigned sex than cIs-gender people of the gender they identify with. There are certain parts of the brain where this correlation is less clear, like the Insula or planum, but these are few in number and their functions are not well or fully understood. The chemical bombardment of the nervous system by injected hormones triggers changes in the brain (neuroplasticity) but those changes are attributed to the chemical intervention, not the desire to be a gender which does not correspond to the sex of an individual. The planum for example changes (controls feedback loops for positional awareness and movement because the transgender person habitually moves differently and neural plasticity creates new neural pathways to mediate the new type of habitual movement or behaviour.

The brains of transgender people are changed by their choices, habits and practices. Transgender brains are not marginally different in order to make transgender people different. Transgender brains are marginally different because living transgender lifestyles changes the brain from habitual action and chemical intervention. I think you may be putting the cart before the horse.

The first article you posted is just an abstract of a paper which is hidden behind a paywall and is too vague to make meaningful comment upon.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Mithrae]

The brains of transgender people are changed by their choices, habits and practices. Transgender brains are not marginally different in order to make transgender people different. Transgender brains are marginally different because living transgender lifestyles changes the brain from habitual action and chemical intervention. I think you may be putting the cart before the horse.

Those neuroscientists really should have consulted you before wasting all that time and money on research!

 

[Aristaeus]

Consider your gender.

Now, imagine your body switched to the other gender, but your brain didn't. You still 'feel' your old gender.

That's transgender, basically. Science is learning about how the brain works, that while there is biological gender, there is also part of the brain that has you 'feel' like you are a gender, which usually but not always matched the gender of your body.

For a long time, hundreds, thousands of years, this wasn't really understood; people simply felt that way, but didn't understand it themselves and clearly recognized society wasn't understanding, and so they kept the situation quiet.

Now, between our increased communication where people can share their experience, and science studying it, we're learning more about what it is. People who are rational and decent learn about it and treat people decently.

Other people just react with 'ewww' and dislike and mockery of the idea they don't understand. The words "gender identity" mean nothing to them. And political interests who want plutocracy recognize the issue is one they can exploit those people on, by pandering to their hostility to the topic, and using scare tactics like 'letting men watch your daughter use the bathroom' to get votes to take all the money for themselves.

Your scientific reasoning is flawed.

You have a sex - either male or female, which is determined by whether you produce male (sperm) or female (egg) gametes. This applies to all mammals and most animals.
A woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male, in the same way that a mare is an adult female horse and a stallion is an adult male horse.
For transgender individuals, it is their gender identity that is in transition, hence transgender. Their sex doesn't change as this is based on biology, not identity - a transwoman is still male and therefore a man (if adult). a mouse has no personal identity, but we can determine if it is male or female by gamete production.

Gender identity is a persons personal response/reaction to social gender stereotypes and expectations.

 

[Aristaeus]

And it doesn't really matter what is going on in their brain. Male and female isn't determined by brain activity, it's determined by gamete production/gonads. A feminine man is still a man.