Transgender people's fears

[Lisa]

If I did you wouldn't address them anyway you would just accuse me of denying the meanings of words are pretend I don't understand something.

You're just using this as an excuse.

I'm tired of trying to translate your word salad.

It doesn't matter you're not really part of the conversation anyway.

And yet you have replied to me multiple in this thread just today, so I am part of the conversation.

 

[CLAX1911]

I'm tired of trying to translate your word salad.

That doesn't matter. You were just act like you know everything and everyone else is just profoundly stupid. Anything that does not confirm your worldview is wrong.

Your commentary is unnecessary.

And yet you have replied to me multiple in this thread just today, so I am part of the conversation.

I'm not replying to you to prove anything. Mostly it's just to show other people that they can stand up to you they can be called transphobic and not be bothered by it. And I'm part of the LGBT myself so it means it's okay.

 

[Lisa]

That doesn't matter. You were just act like you know everything and everyone else is just profoundly stupid. Anything that does not confirm your worldview is wrong.

I have reputable sources for my statements. Unlike you.

Your commentary is unnecessary.

I'm not replying to you to prove anything. Mostly it's just to show other people that they can stand up to you they can be called transphobic and not be bothered by it.

Am I now threatening to you?

And I'm part of the LGBT myself so it means it's okay.

That is as clear as mud.

 

[Questerr]

Yes sex is your body what it is. And gender is a socially constructed role based on sex.

There is.

Gender is not “based on sex”.

What is the falsifiable test to determining if someone is a conservative?

 

[CLAX1911]

I have reputable sources for my statements. Unlike you.

For preposterous bunk who cares? It's like having a reputable source that leprechauns exist.

Am I now threatening to you?

Those are your words not mine

That is as clear as mud.

See, you have selective reading comprehension problems I can't help you with that.

 

[CLAX1911]

Gender is not “based on sex”.

I know this is why we don't need transition and trans people are kind of a contradiction. They're trying to change what sexual characteristics they can change if it's not based on sex you need to tell them that not me.

What is the falsifiable test to determining if someone is a conservative?

Ask them if they believe in conservative philosophy if they don't then they're not.

 

[CLAX1911]

The fact that there is a difference doesn't mean that one is superior to the other. That is more binary thinking.


That is exactly what it is. A male person with a brain that operates more like female, or a female body with a brain that operates more as male.


There are not abnormal. They are just different from a person who is cisgender.

Ive posted this multiple times. Dr Murat Altinay, Cleveland Clinic neuroscience.\

Consult QD

A site for physicians and healthcare professionals from Cleveland Clinic.

consultqd.clevelandclinic.org

This brain and gender identity evidence thing always bugged me. They start out with a conclusion and find data points that affirm it.

What you need to do to prove that this brain mapping has any validity is show that you can determine whether or not someone is transgender based only on brain scans and knowing the sex of the subject. I posit that that hasn't been done because they can't do it.

 

[Questerr]

I know this is why we don't need transition and trans people are kind of a contradiction. They're trying to change what sexual characteristics they can change if it's not based on sex you need to tell them that not me.

Ask them if they believe in conservative philosophy if they don't then they're not.

You realize not every trans person gets surgery, yes?

And if someone says they don’t believe in conservative philosophy but they are lying? How do you objectively determine what is in their head?

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Prefixes are not logic. Prefixes are not the scientific method. Prefixes are just parts of a word.

Homo and hetero are used even when not paired to the word sexual. They are not part of the scientific method. Using them proves nothing within the scientific method. They are just parts of overall language.

I can't use homogeneous and heterogeneous and say......see, this supports anything I want to say with regard to homosexuality and heterosexuality. That would be absurd reasoning.

When biology uses cis and trans it can mean isomers, and that has nothing to do with biology nor does it mean that use of the prefixes cis and trans is the scientific method being used to prove anything regarding transgenderism.

Honestly that's just one of the dumbest things I've seen. Prefixes have logic to them. They're part of the scientific method, they're part of biology. I am just genuinely confused about what you're trying to say. You're saying observable phenomenon that can be measured don't relate to the.... scientific method? When the scientific method is a means to measure observable phenomenon? I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that transgender people don't confer to the scientific method?

 

[Scatty Kitty]

This brain and gender identity evidence thing always bugged me. They start out with a conclusion and find data points that affirm it.

What you need to do to prove that this brain mapping has any validity is show that you can determine whether or not someone is transgender based only on brain scans and knowing the sex of the subject. I posit that that hasn't been done because they can't do it.

I hate to say this, but you feeling any sort of mental state is starting out with a conclusion, and finding data points that affirm it. You deciding what to write out is a conclusion and if we wanted to, we could find data points in your brain to affirm it.

 

[CLAX1911]

I hate to say this, but you feeling any sort of mental state is starting out with a conclusion,

For me sure but for someone looking at the image of my brain no. If they could tell me that I'm male based on the brainscan I'd be impressed. If they told me that I'm gay based on it I'd think they made a lucky guess.

and finding data points that affirm it.

Yeah that's the point of double blind. Record brain scans of 100 males where 5 are trans if someone can pick out all five based only on the brain scans (as in the data alone without bias) then I'll accept there is something to this.

You deciding what to write out is a conclusion and if we wanted to, we could find data points in your brain to affirm it.

No I'm pointing out flaws in data collection

I'm willing to bet if there was an experiment where a person reading only data regarding brain scans they wouldn't even be able to distinguish men from women.

I'm suggesting do an experiment controlling for all the variables but the one you are testing.


I'm being they won't do this despite his easy it would be is because the results won't give them the answer they want.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

For me sure but for someone looking at the image of my brain no. If they could tell me that I'm male based on the brainscan I'd be impressed. If they told me that I'm gay based on it I'd think they made a lucky guess.

They can do that. Different parts of the brain light up for men and women. They can tell you if you're a man or a woman based on that.

Yeah that's the point of double blind. Record brain scans of 100 males where 5 are trans if someone can pick out all five based only on the brain scans (as in the data alone without bias) then I'll accept there is something to this.

They already did that. We know trans people have brains that align closer to their gender identity, even before HRT or any other gender affirming care.

No I'm pointing out flaws in data collection

I'm willing to bet if there was an experiment where a person reading only data regarding brain scans they wouldn't even be able to distinguish men from women.

I'm suggesting do an experiment controlling for all the variables but the one you are testing.

I'm being they won't do this despite his easy it would be is because the results won't give them the answer they want.

Well yeah. That's an abductive study and a very serious issue for psychology in general. What you're referring to is the problem from Twater. There's a very easy solution to that problem. If you were to say that you are happy, I know what you mean even though I won't be able to truly understand your definition of happiness because your brain is quite literally not mine.

 

[CLAX1911]

They can do that. Different parts of the brain light up for men and women. They can tell you if you're a man or a woman based on that.

The way to prove this is show that you can determine sex just by scans

They already did that. We know trans people have brains that align closer to their gender identity, even before HRT or any other gender affirming care.

I'm not sure there is even a difference between men and women with regard to brain imaging. So I doubt there claim.

Well yeah. That's an abductive study and a very serious issue for psychology in general. What you're referring to is the problem from Twater. There's a very easy solution to that problem. If you were to say that you are happy, I know what you mean even though I won't be able to truly understand your definition of happiness because your brain is quite literally not mine.

Well you'd have to have a universal definition of happiness.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

The way to prove this is show that you can determine sex just by scans

Not really, because of the problem from Twater again. We know how to use the words of man and women without having the same brains.

I'm not sure there is even a difference between men and women with regard to brain imaging. So I doubt there claim.

What makes you say that?

Well you'd have to have a universal definition of happiness.

Or a family resemblance.

 

[CLAX1911]

Not really, because of the problem from Twater again.

Guess I don't know what twater is Google has some ideas but can't nail it down.

We know how to use the words of man and women without having the same brains.

I'm not sure what you mean here

What makes you say that?

Lack of proof and plenty of things debunking neurosexism

Or a family resemblance.

?

 

[Trumpetman]

Honestly that's just one of the dumbest things I've seen. Prefixes have logic to them. They're part of the scientific method, they're part of biology. I am just genuinely confused about what you're trying to say. You're saying observable phenomenon that can be measured don't relate to the.... scientific method? When the scientific method is a means to measure observable phenomenon? I don't get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that transgender people don't confer to the scientific method?

What I'm saying, and this isn't hard to understand is using scientific words or even appending prefixes to words doesn't mean you are doing science, supported by science or have proven anything in a scientific manner.

Are you and others seriously not comprehending that the fact that science uses the prefix CIS and someone generated the word CISgender doesn't there is any biological support for gender identity or that you've engaged in the scientific method with regard to proving anything?

If I fold a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in half and call it a taco, have I done Mexican food because that is the reasoning you and others are putting forward. It's absurd.

 

[Trumpetman]

The fact that there is a difference doesn't mean that one is superior to the other. That is more binary thinking.

It's not binary thinking. It's a binary classification for a binary system.

That is exactly what it is. A male person with a brain that operates more like female, or a female body with a brain that operates more as male.

Except the science link provided literally does identify anything beyond ridiculous and rudementary measures.

Do you know how stupid I'd be if I claimed that brain size proved someone was more intelligent? That's what your source is doing but for gender.

There are not abnormal. They are just different from a person who is cisgender.

The term cisgender was literally created to avoid an othering in terminology.

If you apply the original terms it would be "They are not abnormal. They are just different from a person who is normal.

By definition not normal would be, abnormal. So you just redefine normal as cisgender and then you don't get to use abnormal as the opposite of normal.

You're not doing well with this.

Ive posted this multiple times. Dr Murat Altinay, Cleveland Clinic neuroscience.\

Consult QD

A site for physicians and healthcare professionals from Cleveland Clinic.

consultqd.clevelandclinic.org

You can post it even more. You know who else did science on the brains of dead people? NAZIS!!!!

If you think that bit of reasoning is terrible then realize it's even worse for the link you posted.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Looks like you are attacking a strawman.
I referred to what some transgender people are proposing. I specifically called it a "wish list". I never claimed the wish list has yet been achieved.

If you hate something I said, then I can only conclude that you hate fairness and equality for all.

If you think I was "making shit up", then please state specifically what you think I made up.

I was never "assigned" a GENDER. My SEX was observed and entered on my birth certificate by someone who I assume was a trained medical professional.
But if by the term "gender" you are referring to where my personality fits on the masculine-feminine scale, then I would say that I am somewhere between Rick Moranis and Mister Rogers. Personality and sex are two different things.

Why don't you read what I actually said in that post. And if there is something specific you disagree with, then let me know and we can discuss.

when you post something that's close to reality we can talk.

You're so anti-trans I'd rather not deal with you.

Have you actually ever met of spoken to a trans person? I bet you have and didn't know it.

Good bye

 

[Trumpetman]

when you post something that's close to reality we can talk.

You're so anti-trans I'd rather not deal with you.

Have you actually ever met of spoken to a trans person? I bet you have and didn't know it.

Good bye

So you're right because you have a "trans friend?"

That's pretty transphobic.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

What I'm saying, and this isn't hard to understand is using scientific words or even appending prefixes to words doesn't mean you are doing science, supported by science or have proven anything in a scientific manner.

Are you and others seriously not comprehending that the fact that science uses the prefix CIS and someone generated the word CISgender doesn't there is any biological support for gender identity or that you've engaged in the scientific method with regard to proving anything?

If I fold a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in half and call it a taco, have I done Mexican food because that is the reasoning you and others are putting forward. It's absurd.

Umm... I'm not sure how to tell you this but your brain causes all of your thoughts, feelings, and important bodily functions. That's a biological phenomenon. Sometimes you're not even aware of them, like your breathing most of the time. So being cisgender is a thought and feeling. So it stands to reason if you have a brain, then being cisgender or transgender is rooted in biology.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Guess I don't know what twater is Google has some ideas but can't nail it down.

I'm not sure what you mean here

Lack of proof and plenty of things debunking neurosexism

?

Alright so the problem from Twater is a problem put forth by American Philosophy Saul Kripke. Basically the problem is that we say that water is H20, but what if there existed an identical thing like water that was made of Tht2tO? It's chemically identical to water, you can drink it and be fine, and does everything water does. But it's just not made from the same substance. So instead of water it's Twater. The problem is biologically we are all different, but we can understand each other pretty well when we say things like "I'm happy", or "I'm annoyed, stop that". Even though we have different brains. So when it comes to gender, we immediately run into the problem of not everyone has the same biology for their sex, literally, but we feel comfortable saying that two men who have very different biologies are still men. So we have to find a way of threading that needle so to speak.

 

[Randomutation]

You're so anti-trans . . .

That's as illogical as saying that opposition to white privilege is anti-white.

. . . I'd rather not deal with you.

I'll try to cope with the loss

Have you actually ever met of spoken to a trans person

A few. Why?
Also attended a wedding where the bride was trans - about 25 years ago, long before the Obergefell ruling.
However none of the trans people I've known have sought special rights. They just wanted equal rights.
Only elitists want special rights.

 

[CLAX1911]

Alright so the problem from Twater is a problem put forth by American Philosophy Saul Kripke. Basically the problem is that we say that water is H20, but what if there existed an identical thing like water that was made of Tht2tO? It's chemically identical to water, you can drink it and be fine, and does everything water does. But it's just not made from the same substance. So instead of water it's Twater. The problem is biologically we are all different, but we can understand each other pretty well when we say things like "I'm happy", or "I'm annoyed, stop that". Even though we have different brains. So when it comes to gender, we immediately run into the problem of not everyone has the same biology for their sex, literally, but we feel comfortable saying that two men who have very different biologies are still men.

Two men no matter how different they are are less different than they are from women.

So we have to find a way of threading that needle so to speak.

But saying men are women somehow isn't threading a needle it's just false.

 

[Scatty Kitty]

Two men no matter how different they are are less different than they are from women.

"Males are 99.9% the same when compared to other males, and females are as well when compared to other females, but males and females are only 98.5% equal to each other – outside of the X and Y chromosomes. The genetic difference between men and women is 15 times greater than between two men or two women. In fact, it’s equal to that of men and male chimpanzees. So men really are from….never mind. It’s OK to laugh now…"

Human Genetics Revolution Tells Us That Men and Women Are Not the Same

Stop laughing. I know, my initial reaction too was, “really – it took genetics to tell us that?” But this is serious….really. Males are 99.9% the same when compared to other males, and females ar…

dna-explained.com

In other words, there are more genetic similarities across sex, than within a sex.

But saying men are women somehow isn't threading a needle it's just false.

I hate to say it but if we use genetics, it doesn't make sense to group men and women together like that. It makes more sense to use other characteristics instead.

 

[CLAX1911]

"Males are 99.9% the same when compared to other males, and females are as well when compared to other females, but males and females are only 98.5% equal to each other – outside of the X and Y chromosomes.

That's male tissue and female tissue they're not talking about genetics.

The genetic difference between men and women is 15 times greater than between two men or two women. In fact, it’s equal to that of men and male chimpanzees. So men really are from….never mind. It’s OK to laugh now…"

It's okay I think chimpanzees are cool.

Human Genetics Revolution Tells Us That Men and Women Are Not the Same

Stop laughing. I know, my initial reaction too was, “really – it took genetics to tell us that?” But this is serious….really. Males are 99.9% the same when compared to other males, and females ar…

dna-explained.com

Wow men women are different

In other words, there are more genetic similarities across sex, than within a sex.

So? There is no such thing as a man that can get pregnant and there is no such thing as a woman that can impregnate a woman.

I hate to say it but if we use genetics,

I don't. I'll go with the way biologists determine sex. It's based on gametes.

it doesn't make sense to group men and women together like that. It makes more sense to use other characteristics instead.

I don't think that's the case for everything. Certain things we grip on the basis of sex other things that's on the basis of age there's reasons for this.