Fledermaus
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During his meeting with Russian ambassadors at the Oval Office, Donald Trump gave them information that was classified top secret, and put the lives of at least 2 Israeli agents at risk.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-intel-slip?google_editors_picks=true
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
Who are we at war with?
Then you've heard wrong :shrug: Nothing changed in the counter-ISIS Campaign.
...you don't have any idea what you are talking about, do you?
let me restate my possition. What I assert that you are incorrect about is that Trump didn't declassify anything, he shared classified information concerning an arrangement we had with an ally regarding the infiltratration of our mutual enemy. If he had declassified this intel. it would be available under a Foia request which it is not. Secondly, Trump was bragging about what he has access to. It wasn't sharred intel for mutual purposes. We got nothing in exchange. It was just Trump patting himself on the back at our nation's expense.you are totally wrong. He must consult with intel. community.
Really?:
[emoji38] https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2017/10/03/mattis-reveals-new-rules-of-engagement/
I very much know what I am talking about, how much you know I dont know but it is not looking good for you at the moment.
Did you miss that word "or" in your first sentence?
Recommend reading through E.O.12333. Note the whose authority under which information is classified to begin with.
(Hint: it's not Congress)
Yeah - except I'm not the guy who just cited a change to ROE's in Afghanistan to try to claim that Trump hadn't kept the previous administration's campaign plan in Syria/Iraq.
We kept the plan we had. It worked about as well as we thought it would.
If you can keep bringing up Hillary's emails that had no effect on national security of course we are going to bring up Trump's feeding top secret info to the Russians. Not to mention that stooge Trump appointed as NSA director. No American has ever compromised national security as much as Trump. He's a full-fledged double agent compared to Hillary.
I said nothing about Congress and you are the first to introduce Congress to a thread topic of treason (or not treason).
You need to cite precedent which is my request (to another poster). While you yourself cite precedent I'll read the EO as my bedtime reading tonight. You might care to cite or to paraphrase the relevant elements of the EO you present.
Neither am I questioning the authority to classify or declassify or to modify etc. Distribution of classified information and knowledge is the issue, to include relevant and material precedent focused on Potus HimSelf.
Nor do I necessarily question Potus decisions in respect to intelligence etc either strategic or tactical during a Congressional declared time of war, in respect of official allies. In WW II for instance the allies by official treaty were USA, UK, France, Soviet Union. All other partner nations of the four official allies associated themselves with the four allied nations who operated as a unitary group (more or less and for better or for worse).
Precedent(s) plse thx.
I said nothing about Congress and you are the first to introduce Congress to a thread topic of treason (or not treason).
You need to cite precedent which is my request (to another poster). While you yourself cite precedent I'll read the EO as my bedtime reading tonight. You might care to cite or to paraphrase the relevant elements of the EO you present.
Neither am I questioning the authority to classify or declassify or to modify etc. Distribution of classified information and knowledge is the issue, to include relevant and material precedent focused on Potus HimSelf.
Nor do I necessarily question Potus decisions in respect to intelligence etc either strategic or tactical during a Congressional declared time of war, in respect of official allies. In WW II for instance the allies by official treaty were USA, UK, France, Soviet Union. All other partner nations of the four official allies associated themselves with the four allied nations who operated as a unitary group (more or less and for better or for worse).
Precedent(s) plse thx.
Ya, I got a bad link....Look, the command structure was totally changed by Trump
The rules of engagement have changed
the approach to Assad and Russia has changed
and under Trump we have success where we had little under Obama
You asked if there was a precedent for POTUS being immune to the Espionage Act. If you will read E.O.12333, you will see that - since the authority to classify or declassify information flows from him, and is part and parcel of his Article 2 responsibilities, he cannot violate the Espionage Act, as that is his information.
For example, during the Cuban Missile Crises, Kennedy gave US intelligence to the UN, because he deemed that doing so was appropriate. That decision by the POTUS is all that is or was legally required.
For another; the Obama administration decided to declassify and release classified information on the Joint effort against the Natanz Nuclear facility (specifically the Stuxnet attack) in order to make him look tough going into the 2012 election. We can say that was unwise, but it was fully within his authority.
For a third, the Obama administration decided to declassify information regarding the Israeli nuclear program in response to an election in Israel going contrary to their preferences. That was childish, and, like the example above, contrary to an information sharing agreement we have with the Israelis, but it, too, was totally within his purview.
That's not what I hear, I hear that the military rules of engagement changed a lot with Trump, and we know that our willingness to stop getting in the way of Assad and the Russians has changed.
BTW the Obama plan included Mosul, which was a brutal fight that got Iran more into Iraq, and chewed up the Iraq forces, which is why we are dealing with the Kurd problem now....which could turn out very bad.....sorta looks like yet another OBAMA MISCALCULATION, of which there were so many, especially in foreign policy.
EDIT: what was gained by chewing up the Iraq forces is yet to be seen, as it appears the Mosul will continue to be a problem, this time with the abuse of the people by outsiders being instead of coming from Daesh it is now coming from affiliates of the Iraq government in Baghdad...... probably an improvement but maybe not by much.
Obama was well warned that this was a likely outcome.
He said to go for it.
Except, Clinton broke the law and President Trump, didn't. See how that works?
LOL Hillary was never charged with any crime. President's cannot be indicted period. That does not make Trump any less of a leaker of top secret information that (as you are so fond of saying about Hillary) any normal person would be in prison for. No information Hillary had was ever determined to be compromised. Perhaps she was lucky but no secret information from her private server has EVER been found in enemy hands. Trump HANDED the info to the enemy personally.
Y'all gonna retread this story?
Clinton broke the law. President Trump didn't. The president (any president) has the authority to declassify anything. You might not like it; it might even be a dumb idea, but it isn't illegal. It sure as hell isn't treason. Clinton, on the other hand, mishandled classified material, a violation of the Espionage Act.
It sure as hell can be treason for anyone even a President to transmit secrets to the enemy. Where you get such balls to make those statements is beyond me. A Manchurian candidate is by definition treasonous. Trump may very well be proven to be beholding to Putin, certainly Flynn will and Trump appointed him director of the NSA. The organization that keeps our most guarded secrets. Trump could be impeached and then charged with treason although I doubt a prosecution that will happen
Manafort is charged with "Conspiracy Against the United States." Same for Manafort's gopher gofor Richard Gates.
That does the trick thx.
With investigations ongoing it could yet get worse for 'em all right up to the top.
Conspiracy. Treason. It's six of one and a half dozen of the other.
It's going to be a long cold winter. Followed by a long hot summer. Ending up behind high walls.
Manafort is charged with "Conspiracy Against the United States." Same for Manafort's gopher gofor Richard Gates.
That does the trick thx.
With investigations ongoing it could yet get worse for 'em all right up to the top.
Conspiracy. Treason. It's six of one and a half dozen of the other.
It's going to be a long cold winter. Followed by a long hot summer. Ending up behind high walls.
It sure as hell can be treason for anyone even a President to transmit secrets to the enemy. Where you get such balls to make those statements is beyond me. A Manchurian candidate is by definition treasonous. Trump may very well be proven to be beholding to Putin, certainly Flynn will and Trump appointed him director of the NSA. The organization that keeps our most guarded secrets. Trump could be impeached and then charged with treason although I doubt a prosecution that will happen
During his meeting with Russian ambassadors at the Oval Office, Donald Trump gave them information that was classified top secret, and put the lives of at least 2 Israeli agents at risk.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/trump-intel-slip?google_editors_picks=true
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