there cannot be a hell

[Justagurl]

if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent. Around 35, 000 people die a day from starvation of which 85 percent are children. Another 5 million or so die a year from bad drinking water and suddenly it's difficult to reconcile God with reality.

Though an argument can be formulated using the Old Testament that God is dark, twisted, and cruel enough to do those things. I mean he supposedly, destroyed the planet once with a flood, participated in genocide, and pardoned Lot, a man that went on to father his daughter's children :doh

 

[tecoyah]

Oh...come on, of course theres a He!!. I refuse to believe the Doughgirls of the world keep telling me I'm going to a place that does not exist. Perhaps, by your explanation we are already there....but it just doesn't have as much impact to say,"tecoyah you're going to Uganda".

Besides...I already have a timeshare on the sixth level of he!!...nice view too.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Unless you put any stock in the Apocryphon of John. I believe in there Jesus says that its a secret but everyone is eventually forgiven, the last being Lucifer.

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent. Around 35, 000 people die a day from starvation of which 85 percent are children. Another 5 million or so die a year from bad drinking water and suddenly it's difficult to reconcile God with reality.

Though an argument can be formulated using the Old Testament that God is dark, twisted, and cruel enough to do those things. I mean he supposedly, destroyed the planet once with a flood, participated in genocide, and pardoned Lot, a man that went on to father his daughter's children :doh

Agree 100% Just curious though... What do you believe?

 

[Justagurl]

Agree 100% Just curious though... What do you believe?

My parents raised me Christian but I'm closer to agnostic than anything. There cannot be a God as presented by Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
If I ignore everything the Church teaches, it's within my grasp to believe something might be out there. But all of our memories are stored in our brain which dies at our death so any afterlife seems very unlikely.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Eschatology

"Eschatology"

Heaven and Hell are metaphors for grades of human condition, it does not imply a post mortis corporeal animation as proposed by religion.

One may also base the metaphor of heaven or hell on a presence of or lack of eternal life. The latter possibly resulting from an unforseen earthly annihilation whereby human kind ceases to exist or, it may be specific as in the loss of genetic lineage.

Although, heaven and hell could imply loss of humankind, the metaphorical human conditions of heaven or hell likely imply conditions leading to a diminished eternal genetic signature.

The imagery of serving a dungeon master is conjured.
Disobedient souls are lashed.
What is the dungeon master's purpose?
Can the dungeon master issue control everywhere?
Is the purpose cruelty?
Is the purpose self interest?
If it is self interest, what is that interest?
Many propose that deities have limitations.

Some prefer shepherd analogies.
And yet as sheep they do not follow to conclusion that the self interest of the god is in their fleecing and their use as food and sacrifice.

 

[mikhail]

Yep everything in the bible has convenietly become a metaphor when science or common sense have made people no longer believe it.

I mean was noahs arc just one big metaphor wheres the metaphor in noahs arc.

How are heaven and hell metaphors if they were just metaphors they would serve no practical use i.e do what we tell you you get eternal happiness do the oppersite you burn for all eternity.

 

[jkille]

sure there can be a hell, our tiny minds just can't conceive it.

but it doesn't even matter if there's a hell, it matters whether or not you choose to believe there is one.

 

[aps]

Hell is totally make up for people who are incapable of being good except for the fear of going to hell. I actually cannot believe that anyone truly believes it exists. I believe it when I was younger, and it certainly impacted my behavior. Now I don't need that fear to be a good person. It surprises me when intelligent adults believe in it.

 

[dsanthony]

if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent. Around 35, 000 people die a day from starvation of which 85 percent are children. Another 5 million or so die a year from bad drinking water and suddenly it's difficult to reconcile God with reality.

Though an argument can be formulated using the Old Testament that God is dark, twisted, and cruel enough to do those things. I mean he supposedly, destroyed the planet once with a flood, participated in genocide, and pardoned Lot, a man that went on to father his daughter's children :doh

Using the flaws in the "internal logic" of Christianity is pointless. I doubt very much there is a hell. If there is, it doesn't affect me in the least. I make my decisions based on reason and experience, not fear.

 

[jkille]

My parents raised me Christian but I'm closer to agnostic than anything. There cannot be a God as presented by Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
If I ignore everything the Church teaches, it's within my grasp to believe something might be out there. But all of our memories are stored in our brain which dies at our death so any afterlife seems very unlikely.

well, the idea of any religion at all seems unlikely, but that's the point. if any religion made perfect sense, then we'd all HAVE to believe in it and we'd have no personal choice. God wants us to choose him with our hearts, not with our logic. the point is that we choose to believe in it, whether it makes sense or not. it's faith.

 

[Jerry]

Not sure what your'e trying to say here:

[There can not be a hell]if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.

An individual possessing those 3 qualities do not preclude the existence of a place we can go by choice.

Around 35, 000 people die a day from starvation of which 85 percent are children. Another 5 million or so die a year from bad drinking water and suddenly it's difficult to reconcile God with reality.

There's this dude called Lucifer deceives man into making bad decisions, even though we know better......

Though an argument can be formulated using the Old Testament that God is dark, twisted, and cruel enough to do those things.

Only by not understanding the Old Testament could one formulate such a view of God through the Old Testament. You need to also take into consideration that Buddhists, for example, use not Christian dogma at all in their understanding of God, which seems to be clearer than most anti-Christians such as yourself, yet they suffer through life under the same Natural Law as the rest of us.

I mean he supposedly, destroyed the planet once with a flood, participated in genocide, and pardoned Lot, a man that went on to father his daughter's children

I'm not sure why you harbor such anger toward the Father-archetype, but your anger is grossly clouding your judgments on the flood also.

Would you care to enter a discussion on the flood?

 

[Jerry]

Re: Eschatology

"Eschatology"

Heaven and Hell are metaphors for grades of human condition, it does not imply a post mortis corporeal animation as proposed by religion.

One may also base the metaphor of heaven or hell on a presence of or lack of eternal life. The latter possibly resulting from an unforseen earthly annihilation whereby human kind ceases to exist or, it may be specific as in the loss of genetic lineage.

Although, heaven and hell could imply loss of humankind, the metaphorical human conditions of heaven or hell likely imply conditions leading to a diminished eternal genetic signature.

Troy was once considered to be only a metaphor and mythology, as was China. It was no metaphor which made the great pyramid possible; that would be science. So here we have conclusive positive proof that science is not yet at the level of the ancients, yet you would claim that their knowledge of a greater force, a Creator, and related places are mere superstition without first recreating the Great Pyramid as a demonstration of your superior knowledge?

Not very logical, IMO.

The imagery of serving a dungeon master is conjured.
Disobedient souls are lashed.

Depends on the diety.
The Blood of Vole: diffidently! The Church of the Silver Flame: never.

What is the dungeon master's purpose?

To construct adventures and referee the game.

Can the dungeon master issue control everywhere?

With the exeption of the Player decisions, yes, the D.M. controles absolutly everything.

Is the purpose cruelty?

Heh, well, that depends on the D.M. you game with.....

Is the purpose self interest?

As above.

If it is self interest, what is that interest?

Usually the exertion of control to compensate for a feeling of lack of control or self worth in the real world. I had one D.M. who wanted to do weird $hit in game because he couldn't get away with it in the real world.

Many propose that deities have limitations.

"Deities" = Nefilim and Elohim, not God Himself; but in D&D 3.5 every deity has limitations and there is no all-God.

Some prefer shepherd analogies.
And yet as sheep they do not follow to conclusion that the self interest of the god is in their fleecing and their use as food and sacrifice.

We do not have the ability to understand that purpose. It's like asking a preschooler to understand and explain, in detail, brain surgery. That preschooler doesn't have the mental power to grasp that level of medicine, math, chemistry, etc. Man does not have the vocabulary to even ask questions on this greater purpose......yet.

The relationship with God that type-zero civilizations have is that of master and slave. When we progress to type-one that relationship will change to mother and child, and so it goes.

 

[Jerry]

My parents raised me Christian but I'm closer to agnostic than anything. There cannot be a God as presented by Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
If I ignore everything the Church teaches, it's within my grasp to believe something might be out there.

Separate these 3 concepts in your mind: Faith, Religion, and Church.

Each is separate and distinct from the other 2.

Faith is a personal trust.
Religion is the routine practice of that personal trust.
Church is the institutionalization of that routine practice of that personal trust.

One can have a personal trust and not a routine practice.
One can have a routine practice of a personal trust they do not possess.
One can belong to an institution while not shearing in a common personal trust, more having any routine practice (these are called "buffet-Christians": those who only go to church on Christmas and Easter)

You say you don't like any of the many, many different forms of institutionalized routine practices of a personal trust and you profess the possibility of developing such a personal trust. Welcome to the club. This Fundi has not attended church since he was a small child due to the church's corruption.

But all of our memories are stored in our brain which dies at our death so any afterlife seems very unlikely.

Consider the possibility that you are not your body.

How would you test such a hypothesis?

 

[Monk-Eye]

Trifling

"Trifling"

Troy was once considered to be only a metaphor and mythology, as was China. It was no metaphor which made the great pyramid possible; that would be science. So here we have conclusive positive proof that science is not yet at the level of the ancients, yet you would claim that their knowledge of a greater force, a Creator, and related places are mere superstition without first recreating the Great Pyramid as a demonstration of your superior knowledge?
Not very logical, IMO.

I agree you are not being logical.
The Great Pyramids were built with labor, likely as a validation of religion and astrology.
There is no conclusive proof of superior ancient knowledge.
A great force does not imply a creator.

That which is eternal must be and become.
Validation of the eternal is a primal endeavor called survival.
Procreation is the path to survival, it is the manner of being and becoming.
Heaven and hell are metaphors of human condition, their wild supposings as places are fiction.

 

[Jerry]

Re: Trifling

"Trifling"
I agree you are not being logical.

Nice try at twisting my words, but you know that that is not what I said.

The Great Pyramids were built with labor, likely as a validation of religion and astrology.

That's exactly right, "a validation"; or as the bible records "as a sign and a wonder, as a witness to the Lord of hosts".

There is no conclusive proof of superior ancient knowledge.

When discussing philosophical ideas, solid evidence which can be scientifically studied is often demanded of me. Here I have given you such evidence and yet you deny the obvious.

The Great Pyramid is such conclusive proof, to say nothing of the City of the Sun, the Mayan calendar or any number of other ancient constructs.

Even if Warden teacher were to receive the thousands of dollars necessary to recreate it, and subsequently did so, the Great Pyramid still required a greater level of scientific knowledge then what was commonly known even 100 years ago.

A great force does not imply a creator.

That great force is the creator. They are one in the same.

When mathematicians have solved the Unifying Theory of Everything, they will have the literal name of God in their hand

That which is eternal must be and become.

I have no idea what you mean.

Validation of the eternal is a primal endeavor called survival. Procreation is the path to survival, it is the manner of being and becoming. Heaven and hell are metaphors of human condition, their wild supposings as places are fiction.

Oh, your a pop-psy fan, well why didn't you say so right from the off....I would have addressed your post appropriately; ie: likely not at all, as pop-psy fans deny concrete evidence which does not support their self-made dogma.....much like evangelicals do.

I request that you view the movie "What the Bleep do we know". Don't worry, it's not a 'recruiting' "repent or go to hell" piece of propaganda.

 

[mikhail]

religous people talk some **** its like blah blah blah ive invested so much time into this it has to be true

 

[Monk-Eye]

Mangling Sensibilities

"Mangling Sensibilities"

Nice try at twisting my words, but you know that that is not what I said.

Anyone who believes that the stones were transported by levitation is looney.

That's exactly right, "a validation"; or as the bible records "as a sign and a wonder, as a witness to the Lord of hosts".

No it is a logical unfolding. The golden mean cannot be compromised - even by a god.

When discussing philosophical ideas, solid evidence which can be scientifically studied is often demanded of me. Here I have given you such evidence and yet you deny the obvious.
The Great Pyramid is such conclusive proof, to say nothing of the City of the Sun, the Mayan calendar or any number of other ancient constructs.
Even if Warden teacher were to receive the thousands of dollars necessary to recreate it, and subsequently did so, the Great Pyramid still required a greater level of scientific knowledge then what was commonly known even 100 years ago.

There are many books on building the great pyramids and few if any contemporary point to anything other than organized labor and leverage.

Number systems, precession of the north star, long count, short count, the winter solstice after which the sun in the belly of the earth does not rise above the horizon for three days until the 25th of December, the vernal equinox whereby ages are measured, the cosmic egg and the pheonix, the milky way and the great deluge, venus the morning star, kepler's eliptical orbits, Sin (mythology), and on and on; what else did man have to do for hundreds of thousands of years but look at the sky and intimate meaning?

That great force is the creator. They are one in the same.

You are a zero point energy fan eh?
I understand semantic games too well. You are going to have to elaborate on the term creator. An irrational number can be bounded. But one cannot suppose it to be a specific number for in the next instance of time it is something else. It is and becomes.

When mathematicians have solved the Unifying Theory of Everything, they will have the literal name of God in their hand

You are far out on a limb and reiterating your original position of looney.
The result will likely be a physical relationship between gravitation and magnetism.

I have no idea what you mean.

Of course you do not. You have hardly considered that an eternal has no choice but to be and become and that does not suppose it to be empathic about knowing itself. It simply means that which is inseparable from the eternal, intrinsic with it, must affirm the eternal as part of itself. Everyone loves to fabricate an extrinsic god, the cognizant introverted decider, it is human personification.
Plants and animals emulate the eternal. But the sophistication of knowing thyself is bound by the physical constructs of brain and body. There is no need to suppose the eternal is in any other way wary of itself.

Oh, your a pop-psy fan, well why didn't you say so right from the off....I would have addressed your post appropriately; ie: likely not at all, as pop-psy fans deny concrete evidence which does not support their self-made dogma.....much like evangelicals do.

Popular psychology? Deny concrete evidence? There is nothing more alien here. Really, asking one to believe in mental levitation is more pop-psy than anthing I have suggested.
My conclusions originate from the requirement of the physical body to formulate ideas and obtain memory. If you think you can establish conditions whereby the supposed soul or spirit exists then be my guest. Then perhaps heaven and hell will be places rather than human conditions. Do not forget that evidence you keep mentioning.

I request that you view the movie "What the Bleep do we know". Don't worry, it's not a 'recruiting' "repent or go to hell" piece of propaganda.

I have seen the video - the double slit experiment and the wave particle nature of photons.

 

[dragonslayer]

I too don't want to believe that I am going to place like Hell, yet my exwife says I am going to go to Hell. If my Exwife says I am going there, then it must exist. I want to join all of my Right Wing Radical friends there.

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Mangling Sensibilities

No it is a logical unfolding. The golden mean cannot be compromised - even by a god.

That was a wonderful post (all of it, not just the quoted section)....well stated and intellectually sound. I would be interested in your background if its not prying.

Oh....and welcome to DP.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Vanities

"Vanities"

That was a wonderful post (all of it, not just the quoted section)....well stated and intellectually sound. I would be interested in your background if its not prying.
Oh....and welcome to DP.

Thanks.
I will PM an answer.

 

[Justagurl]

Originally Posted by Jerry

Not sure what your'e trying to say here:

Originally Posted by Justagurl

There can not be a hell if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.

I'll try to clarify it for you. Why would a loving, caring wants-to-do good-God( Benevolent) that had infinite wisdom and knowledge ( omniscient ) and virtually unlimited power and control over us ( omnipotent) create non- Christians only to discard them into hell ? Why create somebody just to torture them when you had the swagger to do it right the first time and or control them ?

Benevolent + omniscient + omnipotent cannot equal God if he condemns billions and billions of people to hell. Something is wrong in the equation.

Originally Posted by Jerry

An individual possessing those 3 qualities do not preclude the existence of a place we can go by choice.

For the sake of argument, even if there is a God and Hell..Non -Christians don't choose to go to hell. They simply believe the whole God thing is fiction or fantasy. And my argument isn't that God and hell cannot co-exist. My argument is a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God would not create billions of people simply to torture them.

Originally Posted by Justagurl
Around 35, 000 people die a day from starvation of which 85 percent are children. Another 5 million or so die a year from bad drinking water and suddenly it's difficult to reconcile God with reality

Originally Posted by Jerry

There's this dude called Lucifer deceives man into making bad decisions, even though we know better......

Are you suggesting that millions of people are deceived into starving to death or drinking bad water simply because they are born less- fortunate or in many cases, a mere child? Perhaps in fairness, I should let you clarify your position before I continue with my rebuttal.

Originally Posted by Jerry

Only by not understanding the Old Testament could one formulate such a view of God through the Old Testament. You need to also take into consideration that Buddhists, for example, use not Christian dogma at all in their understanding of God, which seems to be clearer than most anti-Christians such as yourself, yet they suffer through life under the same Natural Law as the rest of us.

That's awfully presumptuous of you. For the record, I was raised a Christian and have a solid understanding of the Bible. The Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. The early Christians fought about what should go into the Bible ( The Canon) and to this day, Christians cannot agree on the interpretation of the Bible. That's why there are so many different denominations. Don't play the, if you don't believe like me you're wrong, card. If you want to debate the issues, then please do so, but making a blanket statement that I'm ignorant of the Bible is not only a non-argument, but a cop out.

Originally Posted by Jerry

Would you care to enter a discussion on the flood?

I dunno, that depends, are you suggesting that God was righteous in the flood? Killing every man, woman, child, or newborn except the handful in the ark? If so, no thank you. We have to agree to disagree.

Are you wanting to debate whether or not the flood actually took place? If so, the earth's water supply has been the same since day one. In the most simplistic form, Earth's water evaporates from oceans, rivers and lakes. Then it rises and forms clouds, then it rains or snows, and then the process starts all over again. If God caused extra rain to flood the earth, then what happened to the excess water? Although truthfully, shouldn't you start a new thread?

 

[Jerry]

Re: Mangling Sensibilities

"Mangling Sensibilities"

Anyone who believes that the stones were transported by levitation is looney.

No it is a logical unfolding. The golden mean cannot be compromised - even by a god.

There are many books on building the great pyramids and few if any contemporary point to anything other than organized labor and leverage.......

Please consider these few items and readdress your post accordingly:

When you place a quotation at the beginning of your post, such as "Mangling Sensibilities", I have no idea what you are trying to say as you do not put your words into context using the rules of English grammar. I am no grammar Nazi, but I do ask that you at least give it an honest try.

What is a "logical unfolding"?

What is a "golden mean"?

....and, you do know that I do not believe that the Great Pyramid was built with levitation, aliens, etc; but with human labor, right? I don't know why you have assumed otherwise.

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

My parents raised me Christian but I'm closer to agnostic than anything. There cannot be a God as presented by Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.
If I ignore everything the Church teaches, it's within my grasp to believe something might be out there. But all of our memories are stored in our brain which dies at our death so any afterlife seems very unlikely.

Have you ever researched Judaism and Islam? Don't be so quick to lump them all together. You will see that they are quite differnit from Christianity. I could not believe in the Christian god ether.

 

[Jerry]

I'll try to clarify it for you. Why would a loving, caring wants-to-do good-God( Benevolent) that had infinite wisdom and knowledge ( omniscient ) and virtually unlimited power and control over us ( omnipotent) create non- Christians only to discard them into hell ? Why create somebody just to torture them when you had the swagger to do it right the first time and or control them ?

Benevolent + omniscient + omnipotent cannot equal God if he condemns billions and billions of people to hell. Something is wrong in the equation.

Well that's easy:
Christianity is an Unrepresentative Sample of Man's understanding of God.

God is to big for one reigion.

For the sake of argument, even if there is a God and Hell..Non -Christians don't choose to go to hell. They simply believe the whole God thing is fiction or fantasy. And my argument isn't that God and hell cannot co-exist. My argument is a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God would not create billions of people simply to torture them.

The sterio-typical Christian view of God is incorect to begin with, so.....

Are you suggesting that millions of people are deceived into starving to death or drinking bad water simply because they are born less- fortunate or in many cases, a mere child? Perhaps in fairness, I should let you clarify your position before I continue with my rebuttal.

Not into starving to death, but into supressing a people by force, sure.

That's awfully presumptuous of you. For the record, I was raised a Christian and have a solid understanding of the Bible. The Catholic Church was the first Christian Church. The early Christians fought about what should go into the Bible ( The Canon) and to this day, Christians cannot agree on the interpretation of the Bible. That's why there are so many different denominations. Don't play the, if you don't believe like me you're wrong, card. If you want to debate the issues, then please do so, but making a blanket statement that I'm ignorant of the Bible is not only a non-argument, but a cop out.

The Vatican was the first official institutionalization of a trust in Christ, but it was not the first church. The first Christian church was Christ and his 12 disciples.

There has never been, even among the disciples, one common Christian tradition. Christianity has always existed as heterodoxy, and never as orthodoxy.

It is not that many forms of a Christian view have come into existence in recent centuries; it is that these different views have been coming back out from hiding from the threat of death from the Vatican in the Inquisition.

I dunno, that depends, are you suggesting that God was righteous in the flood? Killing every man, woman, child, or newborn except the handful in the ark? If so, no thank you. We have to agree to disagree.

As a supporter of the death penalty, yes, I hold the view of criminals who are guilty of capitol offences should be put to death.

Okay, I can agree to disagree.

Are you wanting to debate whether or not the flood actually took place? If so, the earth's water supply has been the same since day one. In the most simplistic form, Earth's water evaporates from oceans, rivers and lakes. Then it rises and forms clouds, then it rains or snows, and then the process starts all over again. If God caused extra rain to flood the earth, then what happened to the excess water? Although truthfully, shouldn't you start a new thread?

In a nutshell:
"Waters from the deep" broke the ice sheet enclosing the earth, which, when all was said and don, did raise the ocean level; which is why we find submerged cities and erroneously date them back tens of thousands of years....because we assume that the surface water content has always been what it is now.

Most of the excess water is still on the surface. We see it every time we look out into the ocean.

However, I agree, that is a subject for another thread. I'll put it on my (short) list of threads I wish to start.