The work required to get a degree

[PoliSciPulse]

I went to a doctor for the first time in three years. Nothing wrong seriously wrong with me that I know of pending blood results, so don't worry. We got into a talk about COVID and how it was political, and he didn't want to pressure me to get a vaccine, etc., but he did think (know?) it was the right thing to do. Told me he lost a patient because his parents wouldn't give him the vaccine.

But then we got into a sidebar topic, which is why I put it here:
It used to be, back when I was growing up, that the doctor knew best. He had the education and the experience. Doctor that now it was like, "you read something on Facebook and you know better than the doctor." I've also noticed the people (especially with COVID) seem to be primarily either undereducated or misled, or rich and can get the best care coverage (I'm looking at you, California).

So this got me thinking, in both cases -- the spoiled rich and undereducated -- if you've not gone to college, it part of the problem with trusting medical professionals that you think, "I can do the same research, too," and just not understand the hours of other work that goes into it? For example, me getting my bachelor's gave me a healthy respect for what kind of work you have to do, and I can look at a doctor, and say s/he's got (At least) four more years of specialization on me, so they know best.

But for people who haven't done the work … is it possible that they think doctors do the equivalent of Googling all day long? Is this why doctors are not as trusted as they used to? Yes, we both can find the same information, but the doctor really knows how to apply it better than Facebook.

What are your thoughts on this?

(Note that I'm not sure if this should have been in the COVID forum)

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I went to a doctor for the first time in three years. Nothing wrong seriously wrong with me that I know of pending blood results, so don't worry. We got into a talk about COVID and how it was political, and he didn't want to pressure me to get a vaccine, etc., but he did think (know?) it was the right thing to do. Told me he lost a patient because his parents wouldn't give him the vaccine.

But then we got into a sidebar topic, which is why I put it here:
It used to be, back when I was growing up, that the doctor knew best. He had the education and the experience. Doctor that now it was like, "you read something on Facebook and you know better than the doctor." I've also noticed the people (especially with COVID) seem to be primarily either undereducated or misled, or rich and can get the best care coverage (I'm looking at you, California).

So this got me thinking, in both cases -- the spoiled rich and undereducated -- if you've not gone to college, it part of the problem with trusting medical professionals that you think, "I can do the same research, too," and just not understand the hours of other work that goes into it? For example, me getting my bachelor's gave me a healthy respect for what kind of work you have to do, and I can look at a doctor, and say s/he's got (At least) four more years of specialization on me, so they know best.

But for people who haven't done the work … is it possible that they think doctors do the equivalent of Googling all day long? Is this why doctors are not as trusted as they used to? Yes, we both can find the same information, but the doctor really knows how to apply it better than Facebook.

What are your thoughts on this?

(Note that I'm not sure if this should have been in the COVID forum)

Some people right here on DP have stated that they would trust the "gut feelings" of a Reality TeeVee Host before they'd trust their family doctor.

There is a general slant toward stupidity and ignorance prevalent in society today IMO, a scorn and resentment toward the educated (ie: the "liberal universities full of communists" etc) and education. A lot of the stupidity is willful and that kind of stupidity is 100% impervious to incoming data and reason.

I have no idea exactly why this is, or what should be done about it if anything can be done. Just like the rise of idiotic conspiracy theories for instance. You wouldn't think large numbers of people could be that stupid but they are.

 

[Greenbeard]

An important and valuable thing I've learned from my time on boards like these is that even if given a solid primary source providing all the information relevant to a particular question many people can't necessarily understand what it says. And that's when they have the relevant source. (This is why "read the bill!" during the health care reform saga became such an eyeroll-inducing refrain, when most of the rightwingers had no idea wtf they were looking at and came up with truly bizarre understandings of straightforward provisions.) So expecting them to both be able to identify a valid and valuable source and understand it is a real moonshot. More broadly, this seems to be why the democratization of information availability via the internet seems to have made the average person dumber, not smarter.

 

[Artymoon]

Covid aside, we put our faith into healthcare professionals for a variety of maladies and for a host of scenarios - and for a good reason. They are highly educated and dedicated to service. But like many professions, the level of practitioner varies tremendously. In the course of my career, I have come across many doctors and I have come to the realization that for every person that finished top in their class there was also one who finished at the bottom. Yet, both earned their degree and the right to practice. There are some that I would not hesitate to accept advice on blind faith and for others I would definitely seek a second opinion.

I'm not sure you meant it to sound this way but I don't consider those who didn't attend college as under educated.

 

[VySky]

I fail to correlate a Doctors extensive studies and that of a decision of morality. Most people didn’t need the shot but were shamed for not thinking of everyone else. It doesn’t take a doctor education to badger Americans to take the vaccine.

 

[Pyrite]

I fail to correlate a Doctors extensive studies and that of a decision of morality. Most people didn’t need the shot but were shamed for not thinking of everyone else. It doesn’t take a doctor education to badger Americans to take the vaccine.

I fail to correlate a decision to take a vaccine with "morality".

Jenner, Pasteur, Salk....I don't associate them with "morality" but with medicine and science.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

Covid aside, we put our faith into healthcare professionals for a variety of maladies and for a host of scenarios - and for a good reason. They are highly educated and dedicated to service. But like many professions, the level of practitioner varies tremendously. In the course of my career, I have come across many doctors and I have come to the realization that for every person that finished top in their class there was also one who finished at the bottom. Yet, both earned their degree and the right to practice. There are some that I would not hesitate to accept advice on blind faith and for others I would definitely seek a second opinion.

I'm not sure you meant it to sound this way but I don't consider those who didn't attend college as under educated.

Don't know if "undereducated" was the right word. Basically, there's a statistical term for "Did not attend college." Apparently, I swung and missed.

 

[medi]

I have gotten to know a fair number of folks in the medical business and they are like in every other profession, some are just not so good at their job. I was in aviation in my younger years and folks may develop fear of flight due to some flight crew screwing up a situation. I think that can be true of engineers that build something that breaks.

But, back to you and a doc gal/fella; you better trust what your body is telling you. You know more about your own body than anybody else, if you are reasonably coherent over a given time span. The key is how a given medical professional interprets the information they have, and that includes the information you give her/him.

I had one of the most amazing skin condition situations for about three years before the blood cancer finally showed up and it was almost entertaining to watch how different doctors were trying to figure out what was going on. One doc fella even sent me off to meet his former teacher and that fella was really a surprise; he told me I should go back to the United States. His former student was shocked by that former teacher's total lack of professionalism. Basically, that teacher fella had taken about an hour of study of my history and simply gave up. Very sad, too, when that doctor who had sent me off to his teacher saw the first signs of the blood cancer --- about 6 or so months after that failed attempt at help from his teacher. Anyway, when he saw the lymph node swelling in my neck the most awful look came on his face and before he even mentioned cancer I had a gut feeling a whole new battle was coming up. Obviously, a number of doctors should have thought of checking for cancer before the actual signs were so obvious. But I don't think giving them all a hard time for screwing up is a good thing to do. I chose an education tool for all of them. And there were four in total at four different medical institutions. Quite reputable institutions, too. I had to do some very hardcore work to write up a paper for all of them.

But, I screwed up, too. I should have broadened my own research as the skin trouble progressively got worse and worse. We finally figured out it might have been due to something I came in contact with so many years ago when on active duty. But none of those docs working on me for about three years knew about that. That didn't come up for discussion until after the cancer showed itself.

Rats, I got way too lengthy with this, didn't I? Sorry. Anyway, trust yourself and add that into the overall analysis of a given medical gal/fella that is trying to help you. And that includes if you have an ambulance situation and are getting help from a medic. If you have a strong gut feeling one of them may be asking you to do something that seems super stupid, don't do it until they answer your questions. Of course, that goes back to being reasonably coherent. Medics can be darn great. Also, darn stupid. Just like a doc gal/fella. 100% trust shouldn't be lightly applied to anyone other than yourself. And even then, you should trust yourself with a grain of that stuff they call salt.

Again, sorry this post got so long.

 

[Pyrite]

I have gotten to know a fair number of folks in the medical business and they are like in every other profession, some are just not so good at their job. I was in aviation in my younger years and folks may develop fear of flight due to some flight crew screwing up a situation. I think that can be true of engineers that build something that breaks.

But, back to you and a doc gal/fella; you better trust what your body is telling you. You know more about your own body than anybody else, if you are reasonably coherent over a given time span. The key is how a given medical professional interprets the information they have, and that includes the information you give her/him.

I had one of the most amazing skin condition situations for about three years before the blood cancer finally showed up and it was almost entertaining to watch how different doctors were trying to figure out what was going on. One doc fella even sent me off to meet his former teacher and that fella was really a surprise; he told me I should go back to the United States. His former student was shocked by that former teacher's total lack of professionalism. Basically, that teacher fella had taken about an hour of study of my history and simply gave up. Very sad, too, when that doctor who had sent me off to his teacher saw the first signs of the blood cancer --- about 6 or so months after that failed attempt at help from his teacher. Anyway, when he saw the lymph node swelling in my neck the most awful look came on his face and before he even mentioned cancer I had a gut feeling a whole new battle was coming up. Obviously, a number of doctors should have thought of checking for cancer before the actual signs were so obvious. But I don't think giving them all a hard time for screwing up is a good thing to do. I chose an education tool for all of them. And there were four in total at four different medical institutions. Quite reputable institutions, too. I had to do some very hardcore work to write up a paper for all of them.

But, I screwed up, too. I should have broadened my own research as the skin trouble progressively got worse and worse. We finally figured out it might have been due to something I came in contact with so many years ago when on active duty. But none of those docs working on me for about three years knew about that. That didn't come up for discussion until after the cancer showed itself.

Rats, I got way too lengthy with this, didn't I? Sorry. Anyway, trust yourself and add that into the overall analysis of a given medical gal/fella that is trying to help you. And that includes if you have an ambulance situation and are getting help from a medic. If you have a strong gut feeling one of them may be asking you to do something that seems super stupid, don't do it until they answer your questions. Of course, that goes back to being reasonably coherent. Medics can be darn great. Also, darn stupid. Just like a doc gal/fella. 100% trust shouldn't be lightly applied to anyone other than yourself. And even then, you should trust yourself with a grain of that stuff they call salt.

Again, sorry this post got so long.

Great post. Thanks for taking the time and putting the thought into writing it.

How are you doing, cancer-wise? (If you don't want to share, I understand.)

Good luck. And it sounds as if you're in good hands - the doctors' and your own.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

I fail to correlate a decision to take a vaccine with "morality".

Jenner, Pasteur, Salk....I don't associate them with "morality" but with medicine and science.

I also associate them with the desire to help as many people as possible with as little harm as possible. Is that "moral?" Not at face value. The desire happens to -line up- with morality, but it doesn't always. I mean, look at Trump. Not all of his desires (if any, depending on who you're asking) line up with what we would call moral. But that doesn't make his desires -immoral- unless the root cause is immorality itself.

Some people right here on DP have stated that they would trust the "gut feelings" of a Reality TeeVee Host before they'd trust their family doctor.

How many of them have claimed that they would trust the gut feeling of a reality TV host not named Trump? Have you seen that claimed? I'm just curious because Trump kind of … he's in his own category. You'd have to say someone trusted, I don't know, Snooki before their family doctor (There's an old reference for you )

There is a general slant toward stupidity and ignorance prevalent in society today IMO, a scorn and resentment toward the educated (ie: the "liberal universities full of communists" etc) and education. A lot of the stupidity is willful and that kind of stupidity is 100% impervious to incoming data and reason.

And a lot of that is a failure of the education system as a whole. The 90s education system I went through nurtured the student to do research of their own. The education now is to learn bits of data that may or may not be connected to each other in order to pass a test. You need to bring critical thinking right back.

I have gotten to know a fair number of folks in the medical business and they are like in every other profession, some are just not so good at their job. I was in aviation in my younger years and folks may develop fear of flight due to some flight crew screwing up a situation. I think that can be true of engineers that build something that breaks.

Well, there's a difference between not trusting a doctor's advice ever, and the doctor trying to treat an arm that's been amputated already. Even to be the worst in your class, you still presumably have more knowledge than the guy who only as a bachelor's.

But, I screwed up, too. I should have broadened my own research as the skin trouble progressively got worse and worse. We finally figured out it might have been due to something I came in contact with so many years ago when on active duty. But none of those docs working on me for about three years knew about that. That didn't come up for discussion until after the cancer showed itself.

From my experience, doctors don't really mind a patient trying to help their own cause. Some seem to absolutely approve of patient ingenuity and, if done in a collaborative manner, would gladly order tests and bill them to insurance appropriately. What they would mind, for example, is you getting a test back negative and you telling them they don't know how to read the test.

Rats, I got way too lengthy with this, didn't I? Sorry. Anyway, trust yourself and add that into the overall analysis of a given medical gal/fella that is trying to help you. And that includes if you have an ambulance situation and are getting help from a medic. If you have a strong gut feeling one of them may be asking you to do something that seems super stupid, don't do it until they answer your questions. Of course, that goes back to being reasonably coherent. Medics can be darn great. Also, darn stupid. Just like a doc gal/fella. 100% trust shouldn't be lightly applied to anyone other than yourself. And even then, you should trust yourself with a grain of that stuff they call salt.

Again, nothing wrong with questions. I went to the doctor today, and he told me what all the blood tests he was giving me were for. I already knew I needed a blood panel before hand, but it was nice to get a peek behind the curtain. Then, I was in a position to ask him if it was necessary or even suggest other things to add. That's collaboration, and there's no problem with that. It's the patients who know better than the doctor does, no matter what they do. Unless that other person has advanced medical knowledge, even bottom-of-class doctors have more knowledge than the average Joe. The problem comes in sometimes with the -application- of said knowledge.

Again, sorry this post got so long.

I loved your response.

 

[medi]

From my experience, doctors don't really mind a patient trying to help their own cause. Some seem to absolutely approve of patient ingenuity and, if done in a collaborative manner, would gladly order tests and bill them to insurance appropriately. What they would mind, for example, is you getting a test back negative and you telling them they don't know how to read the test.

This is a very good point, but I have an awful observation to make; many Japanese and Korean doctors have a sort of "I'm so cool" style of viewing themselves and won't give credit to a patient for information the patient may want to impart to them. There really is a cultural thing involved. I've seen it much less with docs from the U.S. or the UK or from down in/on that continent they call a "nation". Oh yes, and that baby "continent" just to the east of the big one, they also call a "nation". I think the category is "Western" docs. They really are much less of "I'm so cool" style than their Oriental counterparts. Oh, and military doctors are far less likely too have that "I'm so cool" attitude. (Side note: selected Japanese doctors are allowed/chosen to work at Yokosuka Naval Base and become very different in their attitudes after a stint with the Navy docs.)

My first awareness of that was when I had medics that flew with us in the ROK would have time to chitchat with us while our bird might be sitting someplace for a bit and they would tell us about interactions with Korean medical professionals. I mean, that is the first step in even spotting that sort of situation; being informed by a medical professional first.

Since then I have realized it is so very true. Why is a whole ball game of a different nature. I've seen it even with the past 6 plus years of the cancer work.

BUT, you are correct that many doctors absolutely appreciate that an informed patient will add information to a history the doc has to study and ask the proper questions. In fact, very early on I have asked for and kept a complete record/file of all blood test results and learned how to read them.

Another BUT --- and a biggie --- I have noticed a very big problem brought on by this new tech stuff; too much stored information. Now that docs have all that information on a computer they have one very hard time getting at the key points related to a given situation. I've noticed that a fair number of docs aren't so good at using even the most basic of search tools on their computers.

I frequently go into a session with a typed up paper of notes and may ask a question they weren't expecting and see how they go digging through the records on the computer and don't just go straight to using a search tool. But I have kept my mouth shut about how they might be better off using that search tool as that could just aggravate them and cause trouble. I'll just sit there and watch and wait. Worse case is, "I'll get back to you later on that question you asked." Many times they haven't. But with my cancer treatments I now have a doc that knows my style and knows my record keeping and he doesn't dodge and weave and does get back to me instead of trying to hide an inability to find the answer.

But my point is information overload is something I am beginning to think is a problem. But I don't have the time to try and help some institution recognize that is a problem and, more importantly, help them find answers to that problem.

 

[Mycroft]

I went to a doctor for the first time in three years. Nothing wrong seriously wrong with me that I know of pending blood results, so don't worry. We got into a talk about COVID and how it was political, and he didn't want to pressure me to get a vaccine, etc., but he did think (know?) it was the right thing to do. Told me he lost a patient because his parents wouldn't give him the vaccine.

But then we got into a sidebar topic, which is why I put it here:
It used to be, back when I was growing up, that the doctor knew best. He had the education and the experience. Doctor that now it was like, "you read something on Facebook and you know better than the doctor." I've also noticed the people (especially with COVID) seem to be primarily either undereducated or misled, or rich and can get the best care coverage (I'm looking at you, California).

So this got me thinking, in both cases -- the spoiled rich and undereducated -- if you've not gone to college, it part of the problem with trusting medical professionals that you think, "I can do the same research, too," and just not understand the hours of other work that goes into it? For example, me getting my bachelor's gave me a healthy respect for what kind of work you have to do, and I can look at a doctor, and say s/he's got (At least) four more years of specialization on me, so they know best.

But for people who haven't done the work … is it possible that they think doctors do the equivalent of Googling all day long? Is this why doctors are not as trusted as they used to? Yes, we both can find the same information, but the doctor really knows how to apply it better than Facebook.

What are your thoughts on this?

(Note that I'm not sure if this should have been in the COVID forum)

I would never consider my ability to do research into such a complicated issue as COVID is to be better than the ability of people who have MUCH MORE extensive knowledge about the human body than I have. However...what does a person do when some experts take one position about COVID and other experts take a different position? And then, what do you do when it comes to light that some of those experts outright lied about COVID?

I've had every single available COVID vaccine...until last fall. I avoided contracting COVID until last summer. I finally decided not to listen to all of the conflicting opinions and outright lies from the experts. I decided to just make my own decision and let the chips fall where they will.

 

[medi]

All in my family have had all the Covid shots and none have had any bad responses. Myself, never was an option to get a shot as I was under care for the cancer and they said no-can-do with regard to that Covid shot stuff.

But I fully agree that on something like Covid I would have initially taken the shot, if that option had been put to me. In the early stages I do not recall seeing any medical professionals going after each other like we started to see a bit after the first shots were given out.

But I do remember being surprised at how fast they came out with the first vaccine. And I think Japan was one of the first nations where relevant professionals and then the government officials accepted that the first vaccine was safe and went into the procedure to get people to show up at vaccine-giving places. That sort of work is difficult, too. Organizing the shots for hundreds of thousands. No small task. And I think I remember the older citizens were put first on the list. I think. Memory isn't so hot these days, so forgive me if the brain is malfunctioning on that point.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

I would never consider my ability to do research into such a complicated issue as COVID is to be better than the ability of people who have MUCH MORE extensive knowledge about the human body than I have. However...what does a person do when some experts take one position about COVID and other experts take a different position? And then, what do you do when it comes to light that some of those experts outright lied about COVID?

The key to remember is that those people that you think are "lying" about COVID? Yeah, they make the job of a regular doctor much harder, regardless of whose side you're on. Doctors want what's best for you, and politicians or doctors whose work intersects with politics (think Fauci) also makes a regular doctor's job harder. I'm assuming from your post that you didn't get the COVID vaccine. Well, you were dissuaded from doing so by listening to the political and public figures from your own account. This, in turn, makes your doctor's job harder in two ways: a) You got sick, so that could have been avoided (Again, depending on who is reading what you said), but also b) If you listen to say, COVID advice (bad or good) from a specific source, well this specific source may also spout positions on other vaccines and diseases, Well, if what you listened to, doesn't match up with your doctor's advice, you might be inclined to disagree with them on other things.


BUT this also can work for fans of Fauci. I don't know the occurrence of this as there's no data for pro-vaccines as much as anti-vaccines. But to use an example: One of these most common ways to prevent the spread of germs is by washing your hands. Doesn't matter if it's COVID or not. Let's say that someone is just as not critical thinking about Fauci, but in the opposite direction. In this hypothetical, Fauci never mentions that you should wash your hands. Well, a doctor's patient might say they are concerned about COVID but don't wash their hands because specifically "Fauci didn't say we should." And again, a) They get sick, which could have been avoided, and b) if they didn't seek out any other COVID advice, they might be inclined to believe that their doctor is full of it.

In either situation, your regular doctor loses.


(For the record, COVID may have been mentioned in my post, but the post was meant to take a more holistic overview of the situation. COVID is a singular battle over doctor's trust, whereas I'm more talking about the war if that makes sense. Forest/Trees, etc.)

All in my family have had all the Covid shots and none have had any bad responses. Myself, never was an option to get a shot as I was under care for the cancer and they said no-can-do with regard to that Covid shot stuff.

Here's the thing. There are side effects for a certain small percentage of people, probably about the same percentage of people who suffer side effects from other vaccines made from the same ingredients (I'm talking binding agents (like egg white (yolk?) in the case of the flu vaccine, not RNA). These health effects absolutely should be talked about, but it also needs to be clearly communicated that most Americans will not get these side effects. I have no problem with them being downplayed as to how often it will happen, but to pretend as if they're don't exist is basically preventing transparency.

A good model to follow was in Germany, with the AstraZeneca vaccine. Several elderly patients reported life-threatening side effects after taking the vaccine, so they simply removed that vaccine from the list of recommended vaccines of that age group. If Germany can hone in on age groups that might have more adverse effects than others, why can't we?

Japan from what you told me, is a great example in the opposite direction. I remember when there was controversy about whether a water source was safe. Guy who was confident it was, drank the tap water. The catch in this case was that he died soon afterward. But that is a truism: If you don't see public officials taking it … the public will question why.

 

[justabubba]

I went to a doctor for the first time in three years. Nothing wrong seriously wrong with me that I know of pending blood results, so don't worry. We got into a talk about COVID and how it was political, and he didn't want to pressure me to get a vaccine, etc., but he did think (know?) it was the right thing to do. Told me he lost a patient because his parents wouldn't give him the vaccine.

But then we got into a sidebar topic, which is why I put it here:
It used to be, back when I was growing up, that the doctor knew best. He had the education and the experience. Doctor that now it was like, "you read something on Facebook and you know better than the doctor." I've also noticed the people (especially with COVID) seem to be primarily either undereducated or misled, or rich and can get the best care coverage (I'm looking at you, California).

So this got me thinking, in both cases -- the spoiled rich and undereducated -- if you've not gone to college, it part of the problem with trusting medical professionals that you think, "I can do the same research, too," and just not understand the hours of other work that goes into it? For example, me getting my bachelor's gave me a healthy respect for what kind of work you have to do, and I can look at a doctor, and say s/he's got (At least) four more years of specialization on me, so they know best.

But for people who haven't done the work … is it possible that they think doctors do the equivalent of Googling all day long? Is this why doctors are not as trusted as they used to? Yes, we both can find the same information, but the doctor really knows how to apply it better than Facebook.

What are your thoughts on this?

(Note that I'm not sure if this should have been in the COVID forum)

i've come to accept such stupidity as ignoring a learned physician's advice as confirming the survival of the fittest belief
should the population want the brightest or the dumbest to enjoy the greatest likelihood of survival
seems as easy answer
covid confirmed it

 

[Mycroft]

I'm assuming from your post that you didn't get the COVID vaccine.

I'll quote myself: "I've had every single available COVID vaccine...until last fall."

btw, I got COVID while I was fully vaccinated.

 

[PoliSciPulse]

I'll quote myself: "I've had every single available COVID vaccine...until last fall."

btw, I got COVID while I was fully vaccinated.

As I was typing, I realized I screwed that up and then didn't correct myself as I was responding to you. My apologies!

 

[medi]

I had an awful awareness come to me about thirty minutes ago and I have a sort of confession to make. I had totally forgotten two incidents that were very, very bad and probably should have remembered them right away while I had all this medical stuff on my mind and while doing some confessions of possible conflict with medical professionals. But neither incident, almost disaster, related to actual medical advice given and refused. BUT one incident came so close to actual physical confrontation that we had about 2 or 3 minutes of a standoff with security folks sort of around the doctor and I but not sure what to do. I came way, way too close to decking that fella. Shame is, I don't feel so guilty about that. That fella pulled a really stupid move.

And then, because of that, I switched to another medical facility and a different doctor I was not familiar with pulled a super stupid stunt and that turned into me getting above normal in volume and as close as one can get to profanity in two languages, but not actually using the bad language. And that also got staff into that consulting room really fast and caused some tense minutes. But there was a doctor in that same section who knew me and he quickly took over the situation and that brought the matter to a better conclusion. But this incident was due to that doc just being a kind of lazy.

I don't know if any of you want actual details, but I suppose it is proper to make a note here of my not being such a great human with doctors sometimes. Actually, all my life I have had a bad problem of not taking nonsense from any human, no matter who. And that "no matter who" has a couple of times included some folks that were way up the ladder in rank, in one way to put it. Once was a division general and he sure got pissed off at me, but his "punishment" was what got me into professional martial arts and so that turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I had the chance to work with two of the top TaeKwonDo experts; as a boss (one) and as a staff member (the other). The other was the world champion that year. So my pissing off that general was a good thing. Plus it might very well have kept the U.S. out of a military conflict, if something had gone wrong because of what that general wanted me to do.

I slid off-topic there, didn't I? Sorry. Just a point about my bad style about not taking stupid orders from some folks, including doctors. So weird, too, to be remembering all this --- that second incident noted above later came to a conclusion with what still has to be considered some sort of real miracle that kept me off the operating table, or whatever them docs call that operating platform. I was only about three days away from checking in for that operation. And nobody knows how my system fixed itself. But the spine is one weird part of your physical system and mine is a horrid mess. That is the TKD that caused that.

Good gosh, I post just like a stupid old man, don't I? Yakety-yakety-yak. Worse than an old man, eh?