The word of god

The Bible, which is the Word of God, is the most scrutinized book that’s ever written.
And yet, misconceptions about it still abound - from some Christians and skeptics alike - most of whom rely on dis-information.

This thread is created with the purpose of showing that the Bible is indeed The Word of God, to promote a healthy discussion, an open-minded interest in reading and study of the Bible, and to help strengthen the Christian faith in the face of relentless hostility and attacks.
It also aims to try to correct misconceptions about the Book.

The Bible was written by GOD-INSPIRED people through the years, to write down His actual words. "Thus saith the Lord," is written more than 3,000 times, following quotes that directly came from God.

The word Bible comes from a plural word, "Biblos," which means library. It consists of sixty-six books, written by more than 40 authors from different walks of life ( kings, peasants, military leaders, fishermen, tax collectors, poets, musicians, shepherds and a cowman), in three completely different languages (Aramaic - Jesus' language, Hebrew and Greek), for over a period of at least a thousand and five hundred years -from 1500 BC to AD 100.

That's a long period of time.

To give a proper perspective on that long period, it means that if the last book was being written now, the first book would have been written in the final days of the Roman empire. During that fifteen hundred years time span, cultures and outlooks changed.
The Bible was written in various literary styles. There's history, law, biography, autobiography, poetry, songs, parable, allegory, prophecy, self-help, and other things.

It was written in three continents: Asia, Europe and a little bit in Africa.

According to the Guinness World Records:

Although it is impossible to obtain exact figures, there is little doubt that the Bible is the worlds best-selling and most widely distributed book. A survey by the Bible Society concluded that around 2.5 billion copies were printed between 1815 and 1975, but more recent estimates put the number at more than 5 billion.
By the end of 1995, combined global sales of Today's English Version (Good News) New Testament and Bible (copyright for which is held by the Bible Societies) exceeded 17.75 million copies, and the whole Bible had been translated into 349 languages; 2123 languages have at least one book of the Bible in that language.
Best selling book of non-fiction

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In the year of 303 A.D, the Bible was declared an illegal literature by the Roman Emperor, Diocletan. An edict was issued for the destruction of Christian churches and the burning of all Scriptures. Interestingly, 25 years later, the Emperor Constantine was converted to Christ, and he declared an edict that 50 copies of the Bible should be prepared, funded by the government. When we say "copies" in those days, that means writing them by hand, word by word.

And when they wrote it by hand, they wrote it with incredible accuracy. One of the things they did – and this was just one of the checks – they would count how many letters were in each book of the Bible, identified the middle letter, and when the scribe had finished writing this particular book, they would count the letters; and if it was one letter too many or one or two short, they would throw it away, even though they’d spent hours and hours and hours writing it by hand. They’d then identify the middle letter, and if the middle letter was not the correct letter, they would throw it away. And then when the whole Bible was done, they would count every letter in the entire Bible and do the same thing. Find the middle letter again, and if it was wrong, discard the whole manuscript. Incredible! But how grateful you and I should be for the accuracy with which Scriptures have come to us as a result of that.

But it’s ironic, isn’t it, that 25 years after Diocletian ordered the destruction of all Scripture, Constantine, who became Emperor, was converted, and he ordered the government should pay for the preparing of copies of the Scripture.

In the 18th century, the Frenchman Voltaire, he was a writer and crusader against tyranny and bigotry, he predicted that in 100 years time, Christianity would be swept from existence and would pass into history. That was in the 18th century. Do you know in 50 years, Voltaire had been swept into history, and the Geneva Bible Society used his printing press to print thousands of Bibles, and they used his house to store them in before they distributed them.”

Taken from the transcript, The Word of God.
Living Truth: Daily Devotional

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Through all these years, the core message of the Bible remains consistent and very much relevant.

The bible is not the word the god but rather of stories relating to it and those reporting what he said sometimes years after it happened, the Qur'an is the only book that can be taken as the literal word of god with the bible being more similar to the hadiths.

0bserver92 said:

The bible is not the word the god but rather of stories relating to it and those reporting what he said sometimes years after it happened, the Qur'an is the only book that can be taken as the literal word of god with the bible being more similar to the hadiths.

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Well my friend, perhaps I can prove you wrong. Hang on, this thread is still a work in progress. .

Please take note that should you wish to pursue proving the Qu'ran as the word of God, then please create your own thread dedicated to it. This thread is not about the Bible vs fill-in-the-blank. You're welcome here however to give your criticisms, questions, challenges about the Bible though.

This thread is for the Bible - the Word of the Judeo-Christian God. The ONLY God.

Observer92 did voice out an opinion that leaves skeptics to ask a Christian,

Well then, how do you know your god is the true God?

Of course simply stating, "because I believe He is," is definitely not good enough to a skeptic. A skeptic will not accept faith, and definitely he would want to be reasoned with. So to answer that question....

He is the one and only true God because.....He is the Creator. He has intimate knowledge of His creation - information only the Creator would know.

And science is showing support for the Bible.

Speaking of science, I'd like to make this clear right from the get go. The Bible is not science......but science however, supports the truth of the Bible.

The more advance science gets, the more it becomes obvious.

OF COURSE. That would be perhaps the most important role of science. To magnify and glorify the Creator.

And when I say science....it means practically different areas of science! All seem to be working together towards one goal.

Here is an interesting fact.

FACT: “Many of the great scientists of the past who founded and developed the key disciplines of science were BIBLE-Believing creationists!”

Bible-Believing Scientists of the Past

Many prominent non-believers - a lot of them atheists - had deliberately set out to do their own investigative works to disprove the Bible.....only to become convinced of the truth of the Bible, and ended up converting to Christianity. Not only do these former atheists converted to Christianity - they've also become staunch defenders of it!

Some of them deal with science.

I ask, why would a prominent atheist not just abandon his work and move on to something else? Why did he have to convert? He didn't have to shed his atheistic belief. He could just say there's a possibility and be an agnostic. But why convert?
We're talking about prominent people here, with careers and egos....opting to not only to admit they're stumped with their findings....but swallowed their words and losing face before all, by outright conversion to the very thing they set out to bust.

Some went on to write books upholding Christianity!

I can only conclude their findings were so compelling, beyond any doubt. It's like Paul.

Then of course there are those atheists who did not convert, but changed their position. Those who became deist and agnostics.

There's Sir William Ramsay

Sir William Ramsay of Oxford University in England, one of history’s greatest archaeologists. He was an atheist. He spent 25 years doing archaeological digs to try to disprove the book of Acts, which was written by the historian Luke (who also wrote the gospel of Luke) ...

“Instead of discrediting Luke’s account, Ramsay’s discoveries kept supporting it. Finally, he concluded that Luke was one of the most accurate historians who had ever written.
Influenced by the archaeological evidence, Ramsay became a Christian.” (p68-69)

http://www.bethanych...for_christ.html

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Ramsey went to Asia minor over a century ago to refute the accuracy of the New Testament - especially Luke's account in the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, which both contain geographical and historic references. Dig after dig resulted in the same thing. The evidence(s) supported Luke's account. His findings overwhelmed him, that he eventually converted to Christianity.

The classical historian A.N. Sherwin-White collaborates Ramsay's work regarding the Book of Acts.

Speaking of archeology, here's an interesting fact:


FACT: NO ARCHEOLOGICAL DISCOVERY HAS CONTRADICTED A BIBLICAL REFERENCE!


“It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.”- Nelson Glueck

Nelson Glueck was an American rabbi and archeologist whose pioneering work in biblical archaeology resulted in the discovery of 1,500 ancient sites.

Bible in hand, Glueck has ranged the Holy Land off and on for 36 years. "To me, archaeology is like burning the mist off the Bible." His work, he hastens to add, is far from an effort to use archaeology to prove the existence of God. Even to try, he believes, would be to "confuse fact with faith, history with holiness, science with religion." To him, the Bible is an indispensable guide as he goes about his work of filling blank areas on the world's historical maps and bringing lost nations to vivid life.
With the Bible's help Glueck has discovered more than 1,000 ancient sites in Transjordan and 500 more in the Negev. He has won fresh understanding of the age of Abraham and set a firmer date for the Exodus; he has clarified the socio-economic history of the Judean kings and filled out man's scanty knowledge of the once-thriving kingdom of the Nabataeans. He has located the long-lost copper mines of King Solomon and accurately spotted the site of Solomon's port on the Red Sea. Most important of all, he has found in the parched Negev a promise of space for the constricted nation of Israel.

Archaeology: The Shards of History - TIME

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Another prominent non-believer who ended up converting to Christianity is DR. SIMON GREENLEAF

Dr. Greenleaf was the Royal Professor of Legal Evidences at Harvard University. He was goaded by his students into looking at the evidences for the resurrection. After a thorough examination he came back and said, “There is not a single unbiased juror in the world who would ever look at the evidence and deny it. Dr. Simon Greenleaf became a Christian.

Bible Myth: Is the Bible a Myth? | CRI

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The Testimony of the Evangelists, Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice is an 1846 Christian apologetic work by Simon Greenleaf, a principal founder of the Harvard Law School.

Greenleaf is an important figure in the development of that Christian school of thought known as legal or juridical apologetics.
This school of thought is typified by legally trained scholars applying the canons of proof and argument to the defense of Christian belief. Greenleaf's book, which he wrote after examining the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ and becoming a christian,The Testimony of the Evangelists set the model for many subsequent works by legal apologists. He is distinguished as one who applied the canons of the ancient document rule to establish the authenticity of the gospel accounts, as well as cross-examination principles in assessing the testimony of those who bore witness to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
However, what distinguished Greenleaf from previous apologists is that he is the first American apologist to develop an argument favoring the reliability of the gospels and specifically on the evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ using technical legal criteria.

Testimony of the Evangelists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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What do I mean about God having intimate knowledge of His creation? Of science supporting the Bible?

The following are scientific foreknowledge written in the Bible, written long before they were discovered or verified by modern science:

FACT: Noah’s Ark and Ship Building

In Genesis 6, God gave the dimensions how Noah was supposed to build the ark.

“In 1609 at Hoorn, in Holland, the Netherlandish Mennonite, P. Jansen, produced a vessel after the pattern of the ark, only smaller, whereby he proved it was well adapted for floating, and would carry a cargo greater by one-third than any other form of like cubical content” (J.P. Lange, A Commentary). It revolutionized shipbuilding. By 1900 every large vessel on the high seas was definitely inclined toward the proportions of Noah’s ark (as verified by “Lloyd’s Register of Shipping,” The World Almanac). Later, ships were built longer for speed, a matter of no concern to Noah.

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Genesis 8 AMP - And God [earnestly] remembered Noah and - Bible Gateway

How ironic that detractors of the Bible usually mock the prophets/authors for their "ignorance" and "primitive" ways - and yet they fail to see that actually, that very same "ignorance" is what makes them so startlingly impressive!

"Ignorant" and "primitive" men giving accounts that are later on verified, and supported by modern science.

FACT: FOUNTAINS AND SPRINGS IN THE OCEANS

Among the most thought provoking of God's questions to Job was, "Have you entered into the springs of the sea?" (Job 38:16a). The word for "springs" is NEBEK (transliterated from Hebrew), an unusual word referring to the places where water issues or bursts out of the earth. Job must have pondered this question with amazement, for although he had seen many springs on the land, he had no experience with undersea springs. Today we know why. The ocean is very deep; almost all the ocean floor is in total darkness; the pressure there is enormous. It would have been impossible for Job to have explored the "springs of the sea."

The discovery of ocean floor springs represents a great milestone in the scientific investigation of the earth. Before 1930 little was known about the ocean floor.

The first direct observations of deepsea springs, or their mineralized vents, appear to have been made on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge by Project FAMOUS in 1973. Spectacular hot springs were then discovered on the Galapagos Rift in the Pacific Ocean by the 23-foot long submersible Alvin in 1977. Alvin also explored, photographed and sampled hot springs on the East Pacific Rise just south of the Gulf of California in 1979. The research continues.

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Springs of the Ocean


Most of my sources are long articles. I suggest you visit the links provided for full details or explanations.

FACT: Existence of ocean currents


This is about Matthew Fontaine Maury, named as the Father of Oceanography, and the inspiration he got from the Bible, specifically Psalm 8:8 and Ecclesiastes 1:6.

Maury, on the basis of the Bible, concluded that there are well-established wind circuits, and that there are literally "paths in the sea" - that is, definite currents in the ocean. He reasoned that if these wind currents and ocean currents could be located and plotted, this information would be of great value to marine navigators. Utilizing this information, the sailing vessels could be directed along routes that would take advantage of these sea and air currents, reducing by many days the time required to traverse the seas.

Maury found and plotted the wind circuits and the ocean currents. The ocean currents include, for example, the great Gulf Current - a "path in the sea" forty miles wide and 2000 feet deep flowing from the Gulf of Mexico up through the Atlantic. This current has a tremendous influence on the climate of England, Ireland, Europe, and the Scandinavian countries. The average winter temperature on the west coast of Norway, for example, is about two degrees centigrade, or two degrees above freezing. Ordinarily, of course, we would expect far lower temperatures for a country that far north.

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Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures

This monument is on the west end of Monument Avenue. Matthew Fontaine Maury faces EAST towards the Atlantic that he charted both beneath the surface and on the surface. Placed here exclusively for Wikipedia.

Specifics about image. Beside Maury's left foot is the Holy Bible that he lived by daily. Also, there is his book, Physical Geography of the Sea with the Bible.

Maury's book is the 1st modern oceanography book that was constantly updated and went through several editions. It has been translated into more than 18 languages. Because it is the first fully detailed (with color plates) Maury came to be called both "Father of Oceanography" but also "Father of Modern Oceanograpgy" and Naval Meteorology."

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File:Matthew Fontaine Maury Statue.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

tosca1 said:

Observer92 did voice out an opinion that leaves skeptics to ask a Christian,

Well then, how do you know your god is the true God?

Of course simply stating, "because I believe He is," is definitely not good enough to a skeptic. A skeptic will not accept faith, and definitely he would want to be reasoned with. So to answer that question....

He is the one and only true God because.....He is the Creator. He has intimate knowledge of His creation - information only the Creator would know.

And science is showing support for the Bible.

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Dear Tosca, very nice to meet you!

I'm not Christian but Baha'i, but I believe the God I believe in is the same God as in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

In the Holy Scriptures of the Baha'i religion, you find the statement numerous times that science and religion must never contradict, but complement each other, and religious convictions in contradiction to science are mere superstition -- just like rationality without religion will derive into dark materialism. It takes both wings to fly.

That's why I cannot ignore modern religious science when looking at the Bible. Asfaik, modern science has found that large parts of the Bible were written long after the depicted events took place, and they contain a lot of myth. You have to consider the context when these books were written. I.e., the Pentateuch was written not before ca. 500 BC, after the Babylonian exile of the Israelites, although Moses probably lived between 1300 and 1200 BC. Although I strongly believe that Abraham and Moses were divine prophets and revealed God's word, you cannot be entirely sure about the tradition and accuracy of the OT.

Even the NT books, like the Gospels, were not written in Jesus' times, but 30 to 50 years later minimum. And not by Jesus himself.

Similarly, the Hinduist tradition of Krishna's revelation, who was a prophet of the same single God we all worship, is even more questionable. The tradition of Buddhist scripture (as Buddha was another such prophet by the same God) is much better already, so is Quran from prophet Mohammed. But the best and most accurate tradition is given in case of the Baha'i scripture revealed by prophet Baha'u'llah in the 19th century.

Also, creationism contradicts science. There is no way around it. Hence, the creation myth in the OT is nothing but a poetic description, an analogy, not to be confused with literal fact or hard science. Science currently assumes the universe was created via a "big bang" dozens of billions of years ago, and that was when God created the universe. Also, life on earth developed via evolution, but, as I believe, according to God's plan. Science describes *how* it happened, and religion answers *why* it happened: It was God's plan that evolution would eventually yield man. Creationism or "intelligent design" are not science, they're pseudo science.

You ask how I can know God is real? I tell you: There is no objective, scientific proof to "know" God exists. But when I look at creation, the wonderful complexity of nature and its systems, and the amazing capacity of mankind, I cannot help but *feel* that there is more to this world than coincidence. Just like you can feel the beauty of a good poem.

It's not just useless, but also rude to attempt to force people to see this beauty in a poem: Either you see it, or you don't. You cannot force anybody to see it. I think people who fail to see this beauty in God's creation are lacking a particular sense, maybe they center too much on rationality and don't allow a less rational sense for beauty influence their thinking. That's no reason to condemn or attack them. But I believe that to be whole as a human, you need this sense that goes beyond rationality.

German guy said:

Dear Tosca, very nice to meet you!

I'm not Christian but Baha'i, but I believe the God I believe in is the same God as in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

In the Holy Scriptures of the Baha'i religion, you find the statement numerous times that science and religion must never contradict, but complement each other, and religious convictions in contradiction to science are mere superstition -- just like rationality without religion will derive into dark materialism. It takes both wings to fly.

That's why I cannot ignore modern religious science when looking at the Bible. Asfaik, modern science has found that large parts of the Bible were written long after the depicted events took place, and they contain a lot of myth. You have to consider the context when these books were written. I.e., the Pentateuch was written not before ca. 500 BC, after the Babylonian exile of the Israelites, although Moses probably lived between 1300 and 1200 BC. Although I strongly believe that Abraham and Moses were divine prophets and revealed God's word, you cannot be entirely sure about the tradition and accuracy of the OT.

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Hi German guy. I'm glad to meet you.

I'm a little lost about your statements above. Have you read all my posts on this thread? This thread is still a work in progress....there'll be more!

Even the NT books, like the Gospels, were not written in Jesus' times, but 30 to 50 years later minimum. And not by Jesus himself.

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And the point, is?

Kindly scroll back and read all the posts.....

Similarly, the Hinduist tradition of Krishna's revelation, who was a prophet of the same single God we all worship, is even more questionable.

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Islam is also being claimed by some to be worshipping the same God as we do based upon its connection with Abraham. How can that be? Do Hindus believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God - God incarnated to save us through His death and Resurrection?

Hindus worship a lot of personal gods.

Idol worship and rituals are at the heart of Hinduism have great religious and philosophical significance.

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Symbolism of Hindu Deities - What Do Hindu Idols Symbolize?

What does God say about idols? If you don't believe the Bible, how can you claim to believe the same God we do?

If you don't believe in the Bible - you're actually saying the Judeo-Christian God is full of baloney. How then can you believe in such a god who contradict himself?

Like the idol worship, as an example. For Jews and Christians, it is forbidden to indulge in idol-worship....but if we become Hindus, it's okay?

Is God is inconsistent? Is He insane?

Well, my God is not insane, or inconsistent....and He's certainly not a liar.

The tradition of Buddhist scripture (as Buddha was another such prophet by the same God) is much better already, so is Quran from prophet Mohammed. But the best and most accurate tradition is given in case of the Baha'i scripture revealed by prophet Baha'u'llah in the 19th century.

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Yes, the Qu'ran had been claimed so because of the connection to Abraham. However.....they took the wrong path, when they believed what they think was the "messenger" of God.

How do I know the messenger was not of God? The messenger made a liar out of God.

Also, creationism contradicts science.

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How?

There is no way around it. Hence, the creation myth in the OT is nothing but a poetic description, an analogy, not to be confused with literal fact or hard science. Science currently assumes the universe was created via a "big bang" dozens of billions of years ago, and that was when God created the universe. Also, life on earth developed via evolution, but, as I believe, according to God's plan. Science describes *how* it happened, and religion answers *why* it happened: It was God's plan that evolution would eventually yield man. Creationism or "intelligent design" are not science, they're pseudo science.

You ask how I can know God is real? I tell you: There is no objective, scientific proof to "know" God exists. But when I look at creation, the wonderful complexity of nature and its systems, and the amazing capacity of mankind, I cannot help but *feel* that there is more to this world than coincidence. Just like you can feel the beauty of a good poem.

It's not just useless, but also rude to attempt to force people to see this beauty in a poem: Either you see it, or you don't. You cannot force anybody to see it. I think people who fail to see this beauty in God's creation are lacking a particular sense, maybe they center too much on rationality and don't allow a less rational sense for beauty influence their thinking. That's no reason to condemn or attack them. But I believe that to be whole as a human, you need this sense that goes beyond rationality.

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How can you say there's no "scientific" proof to know that God exists...when practically all my posts offer OBJECTIVE empirical evidences by invoking different areas of science, including Philosophy - to establish the proof that non-believers crave for.

How can you say there is no scientific proof that God exists and yet in the next sentence you go on about the WONDERFUL COMPLEXITIES OF NATURE and ITS SYSTEMS....the AMAZING CAPACITY OF MANKIND ...admiring CREATION?

Intelligent Design is for a separate topic, and appropriately belongs to SCIENCE section, where the leaky evolution boat is being discussed.


Well, read my other posts here, and then I challenge you to refute them.

German guy said:

Even the NT books, like the Gospels, were not written in Jesus' times, but 30 to 50 years later minimum. And not by Jesus himself.

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That's true of almost ALL historical books, infact for ancient history the NT is extremely early and extremely well attested.

tosca1 said:

Hi German guy. I'm glad to meet you.

I'm a little lost about your statements above. Have you read all my posts on this thread? This thread is still a work in progress....there'll be more!

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Hey Tosca! Glad to see you responding!

I won't refute every posting you made, because they have been refuted many times already by people seriously interested in science. I don't question that many stories in the Bible are based on real events, but we cannot be sure how accurate the descriptions are.

I'm not interested in going into the details of allegedly scientific arguments pro or contra the Bible, but more in a more basic debate, if you're open for it (I assume you're open minded, as you have joined this debate forum, and there is not much sense in debating when you are not open for other opinions, or is there?)

Islam is also being claimed by some to be worshipping the same God as we do based upon its connection with Abraham. How can that be? Do Hindus believe in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God - God incarnated to save us through His death and Resurrection?

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Baha'ism continues the line of the Abrahamic religions, as it came into existence in a Muslim background.

The prophet who revealed God's word to found the Baha'i faith, Baha'u'llah, laid out that Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zarathustra, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, the Bab and Baha'u'llah himself were all divine messengers, prophets and manifestations of God. Jesus Christ is the son of God and was born by virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit. All of these prophets/manifestations of God reveal the same message from the same unique, single God.

The differences between the respective religions are due to two things: 1) Mistakes in the tradition and misinterpretations of the respective theologists and 2) because mankind develops, hence God has to update the one true religion every time anew, every couple of centuries. All these religions have in common, though, that they were the respectively best remedy for the ills of mankind in its respective time and region.

Also, each religion used analogies and myths suited for the intellectual level of the respective "audience". Of course people in Moses' times could not have understood the theory of evolution or the big bang theory, so naturally, the revelation back then had to use metaphors and analogies. Today, we're further.

Hindus worship a lot of personal gods.

Symbolism of Hindu Deities - What Do Hindu Idols Symbolize?

What does God say about idols? If you don't believe the Bible, how can you claim to believe the same God we do?

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This difference is probably due to problems in the tradition. The Hindu religion revealed by Krishna merged with many old traditions and myths. That's why God later sent new prophets to "update" religion.

If you don't believe in the Bible - you're actually saying the Judeo-Christian God is full of baloney. How then can you believe in such a god who contradict himself?
Like the idol worship, as an example. For Jews and Christians, it is forbidden to indulge in idol-worship....but if we become Hindus, it's okay?

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No, I'm not saying "the Judeo-Christian God is full of baloney". I'm saying I don't think the Bible is necessarily an accurate documentation of the divine revelations by Abraham, Moses and Jesus, but was changed over time before they were written down. You know the principle of the "Chinese whispers" game? That exactly. The OT stories about Abraham and Moses had been passed on orally for 700 years before they were written down for the first time. The Gospels several decades. They probably contain many true elements, but we cannot be 100% sure which of it is truly divine, and which was added later.

If you are Christian or Hindu doesn't make much of a difference ... but if you really want to be up to date, you should embrace Baha'u'llah's message.

Is God is inconsistent? Is He insane?

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No. First: In different ages and regions of the planet, man suffered from different ills. Hence, the respective remedy had to be different. That's why God gave different revelations to the early Christians and Romans, the Arab barbarians of the 7th century, or the Indians.

Second: Those many people who passed on the divine revelations orally, and those who wrote them down eventually, may well have been inconsistent. And of course, the many theologists who interpret them can be inconsistent too.

Yes, the Qu'ran had been claimed so because of the connection to Abraham. However.....they took the wrong path, when they believed what they think was the "messenger" of God.

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Quran was the best revelation for the Arabs in the 7th century. Better suited for them than the Bible was. The Bible, on the other hand, best addressed the needs of the Romans in the centuries after Christ's revelation. And Buddha addressed the needs of the Indians in his time best.

Today, the best revelation for the whole of mankind is Baha'u'llah's revelation. But hey, as long as you believe in one of the previous, legitimate revelations, you're at least on the right track.

"Also, creationism contradicts science."

How?

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Ask any scientist. It's common wisdom really. Evolution has been empirically proven, and every biology student in the first semester can demonstrate it for you in the lab.

Thanks for the nice exchange! God bless!

German guy said:

Dear Tosca, very nice to meet you!

I'm not Christian but Baha'i, but I believe the God I believe in is the same God as in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

In the Holy Scriptures of the Baha'i religion, you find the statement numerous times that science and religion must never contradict, but complement each other, and religious convictions in contradiction to science are mere superstition -- just like rationality without religion will derive into dark materialism. It takes both wings to fly.

That's why I cannot ignore modern religious science when looking at the Bible. Asfaik, modern science has found that large parts of the Bible were written long after the depicted events took place, and they contain a lot of myth. You have to consider the context when these books were written. I.e., the Pentateuch was written not before ca. 500 BC, after the Babylonian exile of the Israelites, although Moses probably lived between 1300 and 1200 BC. Although I strongly believe that Abraham and Moses were divine prophets and revealed God's word, you cannot be entirely sure about the tradition and accuracy of the OT.

Even the NT books, like the Gospels, were not written in Jesus' times, but 30 to 50 years later minimum. And not by Jesus himself.

Similarly, the Hinduist tradition of Krishna's revelation, who was a prophet of the same single God we all worship, is even more questionable. The tradition of Buddhist scripture (as Buddha was another such prophet by the same God) is much better already, so is Quran from prophet Mohammed. But the best and most accurate tradition is given in case of the Baha'i scripture revealed by prophet Baha'u'llah in the 19th century.

Also, creationism contradicts science. There is no way around it. Hence, the creation myth in the OT is nothing but a poetic description, an analogy, not to be confused with literal fact or hard science. Science currently assumes the universe was created via a "big bang" dozens of billions of years ago, and that was when God created the universe. Also, life on earth developed via evolution, but, as I believe, according to God's plan. Science describes *how* it happened, and religion answers *why* it happened: It was God's plan that evolution would eventually yield man. Creationism or "intelligent design" are not science, they're pseudo science.

You ask how I can know God is real? I tell you: There is no objective, scientific proof to "know" God exists. But when I look at creation, the wonderful complexity of nature and its systems, and the amazing capacity of mankind, I cannot help but *feel* that there is more to this world than coincidence. Just like you can feel the beauty of a good poem.

It's not just useless, but also rude to attempt to force people to see this beauty in a poem: Either you see it, or you don't. You cannot force anybody to see it. I think people who fail to see this beauty in God's creation are lacking a particular sense, maybe they center too much on rationality and don't allow a less rational sense for beauty influence their thinking. That's no reason to condemn or attack them. But I believe that to be whole as a human, you need this sense that goes beyond rationality.

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HI GG - I am an atheist, but it was refreshing to see such a balanced and beautifully written perspective.

I have often said that the more I learn about nature, the easier it becomes to think there may be a God, and I can also see a lot of wisdom in all the holy texts. But I have come to believe what I do for my own reasons, and I fell content with those beliefs.

I do respect people of faith, and can see the value in many religious traditions - just not in the way people use their holy books to bash people over the head.

that said, The only idea of a God that makes any sense to me is that if there is a God, it is us. if we look to the better part of ourselves and try to be the best person we can be, we would be true to the Word of God. If we treat others as we would be treated, then we are honouring the God that is within them, and if, as believers say, God created the world then by caring for our world and our environment we are also honouring God.

RGacky3 said:

That's true of almost ALL historical books, infact for ancient history the NT is extremely early and extremely well attested.

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But yet, the Gospels were not written by Jesus Christ himself, unlike Quran and Baha'i scripture, which were indeed written by the respective prophets themselves, and their tradition is well documented.

German guy said:

But yet, the Gospels were not written by Jesus Christ himself, unlike Quran and Baha'i scripture, which were indeed written by the respective prophets themselves, and their tradition is well documented.

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The Quran was not written by Mohammad directly ... I don't know about the Baha'i scripture.

I'm not ignoring you, but I've got to go to work.

tosca1 said:

I'm not ignoring you, but I've got to go to work.

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Have a wonderful day and God bless you!

RGacky3 said:

The Quran was not written by Mohammad directly ... I don't know about the Baha'i scripture.

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Oh yes, sorry, you are right. Quran was not written by Mohammed himself ... but asfaik, science agrees that the tradition of the scripture is very accurate, much moreso than in case of the Bible (which even most Christians claim is not "God's word", but was written by "inspired" people).

Baha'u'llah's scriptures were directly written by himself or dictated, and many of the originals still exist in Haifa.