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The sign of the cross

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Rumpelstil

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Just some thoughts ....

Usually the sign of th cross serves like a logo for Christianity.
But then there are Christians who call the cross a pagan symbol.

Sometimes the sign of a cross may have nothing to do with any religion - serves only as a marker for something.
Cases have been known when Muslims mistook such a marking as a Christian sign and took offence.

Some Christians bless themselves by the sign of the cross - others don't.

Why - or why not?

What are your ideas on this topic?
 
Just some examples of differences:

In the Roman or Latin Rite Church it is customary to make the full Sign of the Cross using holy water when entering a church. The first three fingers of the right hand are dipped into the font containing the holy water and the Sign of the Cross is made on oneself. This gesture has a two-fold purpose: to remind one of one's baptism and the rights and responsibilities that go with it and to also remind one that one is entering a sacred place that is set apart from the world outside.

In the Eastern Orthodox (including the Russian Orthodox) and Eastern Catholic Churches, the tips of the first three fingers (the thumb, index, and middle ones) are brought together, and the last two (the "ring" and little fingers) are pressed against the palm. The first three fingers express one's faith in the Trinity, while the remaining two fingers represent the two natures of Jesus, divine and human.
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More about it: Sign of the cross - Wikipedia
 
About Baptists and Evangelicals and Pentecostals:

Baptists and Evangelicals feel that crossing themselves is not necessary and that it is the choice of the person if whether or not if they will cross themselves during prayer . Therefore, most Baptists and Evangelicals do not make the sign of the cross, but a small proportion of them still do . It is often looked at as an ancient Christian practice and is not necessary in the current church . In conclusion, Baptists/Evangelicals do not make the sign of the cross but it is allowed .

Pentecostals do not make the sign of the cross at all. In fact, some Pentecostal churches do not include the latin cross in their church .
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Sign of the cross - Wikipedia
 
Rumpel said:
Just some thoughts ....

Usually the sign of th cross serves like a logo for Christianity.
But then there are Christians who call the cross a pagan symbol.

Sometimes the sign of a cross may have nothing to do with any religion - serves only as a marker for something.
Cases have been known when Muslims mistook such a marking as a Christian sign and took offence.

Some Christians bless themselves by the sign of the cross - others don't.

Why - or why not?

What are your ideas on this topic?
Click to expand...

Simple symbols have a long history in mankind. The cross is one of them but those who say Christians stole the symbol from pagans for the Christian religion are just being simple-minded and do not understand the fact Romans often used a cross for crucifixion.
 
Rumpel said:
Exactly! :)

That's why I thought it might be a good topic to talk about. :)
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As noted in another thread where atheists made a lame attempt to claim Christians stole the symbol from pagans, that's clearly not true. Sure, the Christmas tree and Easter bunny have pagan origins but not the cross since there is a direct correlation with the method of Christ's execution.
 
Rumpel said:
What do you mean?
Cant you also talk in words - instead of throwing me some numbers like some throw bones to their dogs?
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You have a telephone? Without actual dialing pretend you are dialing that number, no other digits, just the seven I posted. Let me know if you understand......
 
Royal PITA said:
As noted in another thread where atheists made a lame attempt to claim Christians stole the symbol from pagans, that's clearly not true. Sure, the Christmas tree and Easter bunny have pagan origins but not the cross since there is a direct correlation with the method of Christ's execution.
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In any case I would never speak of "stealing" - when some religions have simular symbols and rituals etc. :)
 
Royal PITA said:
The PC term is "cultural appropriation". Means the same thing. :)
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Perhaps appropriated. Nonetheless, the cross as a symbol of some type of worship was used before Christ. It was Constantine that decided to make use of the cross as we know it, like he made use of so much else as came to be known as Christian. Christ was most likely not nailed/tied to a cross but rather a stake of some proportion. A cross was a design waste of wood in a land of little timber.
 
bluesmoke said:
Perhaps appropriated. Nonetheless, the cross as a symbol of some type of worship was used before Christ. It was Constantine that decided to make use of the cross as we know it, like he made use of so much else as came to be known as Christian. Christ was most likely not nailed/tied to a cross but rather a stake of some proportion. A cross was a design waste of wood in a land of little timber.
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While the Romans did use several methods of crucifixion, there is
DyMaH_LWwAAGhGG.jpg


OTOH, the "waste of wood" excuse doesn't fly since they were reused. It's less work to have the large upright stake fixed in the ground, nail the victim to a cross beam then lift him up via a pulley to be fixed on the stake. The body could more easily be removed by this method.
 
Royal PITA said:
Simple symbols have a long history in mankind. The cross is one of them but those who say Christians stole the symbol from pagans for the Christian religion are just being simple-minded and do not understand the fact Romans often used a cross for crucifixion.
Click to expand...

But the real question is, do symbols have a place in true worship of Jehovah God? The answer is no...

1 Cor. 10:14: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.”

i·dol

an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered.

idol - Google Search

“You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” Exodus 20:4, 5

“The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”—(1967), Vol. IV, p. 486. New Catholic Encyclopedia

“There was no use of the crucifix and no material representation of the cross.”—(New York, 1897), J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366. History of the Christian Church

Does it really make any difference if a person cherishes a cross, as long as he does not worship it?

How would you feel if one of your dearest friends was executed on the basis of false charges? Would you make a replica of the instrument of execution? Would you wear that replica around your neck? Would you make a sign of that replica in prayer? Would you cherish it, or would you rather shun it...find it a disgusting reminder of how you loved one died?
 
Elvira said:
But the real question is, do symbols have a place in true worship of Jehovah God? The answer is no...

1 Cor. 10:14: “My beloved ones, flee from idolatry.”

i·dol

an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.
a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered.

idol - Google Search

“You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” Exodus 20:4, 5

“The representation of Christ’s redemptive death on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries. The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images, were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord’s Passion.”—(1967), Vol. IV, p. 486. New Catholic Encyclopedia

“There was no use of the crucifix and no material representation of the cross.”—(New York, 1897), J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366. History of the Christian Church

Does it really make any difference if a person cherishes a cross, as long as he does not worship it?

How would you feel if one of your dearest friends was executed on the basis of false charges? Would you make a replica of the instrument of execution? Would you wear that replica around your neck? Would you make a sign of that replica in prayer? Would you cherish it, or would you rather shun it...find it a disgusting reminder of how you loved one died?
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Idolatry is worshipping the symbol. There's nothing with with a symbol per se. If there was, then what would Jews do about the Star of David and a menorah?

What Catholics do with worship of Mary is, IMHO, idolatry. Wearing a cross necklace or carrying a rosary is not since there is a difference between worshipping an object and having is reminder of one's faith.

Again, note that Jews don't worship the Star of David or a menorah even though they have the symbols.
 
Rumpel said:
Just some thoughts ....

Usually the sign of th cross serves like a logo for Christianity.
But then there are Christians who call the cross a pagan symbol.

Sometimes the sign of a cross may have nothing to do with any religion - serves only as a marker for something.
Cases have been known when Muslims mistook such a marking as a Christian sign and took offence.

Some Christians bless themselves by the sign of the cross - others don't.

Why - or why not?

What are your ideas on this topic?
Click to expand...

There is also this cross, very popular among hard rock bands/heavy metal bands and their followers

Satanic-goats-head-Baphoment-pendant-necklace-inverted-_1.webp

Or the original one (IMHO)

ankh.webp

A sign/cross symbolizing life, which is older than just about any other cross. Over 5000 years old.
 
Rumpel said:
Just some thoughts ....

Usually the sign of th cross serves like a logo for Christianity.
But then there are Christians who call the cross a pagan symbol.

Sometimes the sign of a cross may have nothing to do with any religion - serves only as a marker for something.
Cases have been known when Muslims mistook such a marking as a Christian sign and took offence.

Some Christians bless themselves by the sign of the cross - others don't.

Why - or why not?

What are your ideas on this topic?
Click to expand...

Answering that is not my cross to bear.
 
Peter King said:
There is also this cross, very popular among hard rock bands/heavy metal bands and their followers

View attachment 67273049

Or the original one (IMHO)

View attachment 67273050

A sign/cross symbolizing life, which is older than just about any other cross. Over 5000 years old.
Click to expand...

Note that the ankh is a stylized symbol of man but it's origin is thought to be the Sun with male and female genitalia;
The Ankh - Ancient History Encyclopedia
The volume of meaning that can be squeezed from such a simple symbol is awe-inspiring. The ankh represents the male and female genitalia, the sun coming over the horizon, and the union of heaven and earth. This association with the sun means that the ankh is traditionally drawn in gold - the color of the sun - and never in silver, which relates to the moon. Putting aside the complexities of these separate elements, though, what does the ankh look like? Its resemblance to a key gives a clue to another meaning of this magical symbol. The Egyptians believed that the afterlife was as meaningful as the present one and the ankh provided the key to the gates of death and what lay beyond


Not so coincidentally, the Star of David is also a male/female symbol: the Blade and the Chalice.

07e05f919b2b2e49c86c6098e54d2f8d.jpg


What does this have to do with the Christian cross? The modern Christian cross could also be a symbol of a man with a head, body and arms.
 
Royal PITA said:
While the Romans did use several methods of crucifixion, there is
DyMaH_LWwAAGhGG.jpg


OTOH, the "waste of wood" excuse doesn't fly since they were reused. It's less work to have the large upright stake fixed in the ground, nail the victim to a cross beam then lift him up via a pulley to be fixed on the stake. The body could more easily be removed by this method.
Click to expand...



There is practically no biblical dispute over the term "crucifixion". I guess it's just my over-simplistic common sense that has me believe Simon of Cyrene and variously Jesus could not have "carried/dragged" a wooden cross of such proportion as most often depicted in paint and sculpture for 8 stations of nearly 1 mile distance unless it was made of balsa. Falling 3 times would not have been enough rest.
 
Royal PITA said:
Idolatry is worshipping the symbol. There's nothing with with a symbol per se. If there was, then what would Jews do about the Star of David and a menorah?

What Catholics do with worship of Mary is, IMHO, idolatry. Wearing a cross necklace or carrying a rosary is not since there is a difference between worshipping an object and having is reminder of one's faith.

Again, note that Jews don't worship the Star of David or a menorah even though they have the symbols.
Click to expand...

Call it what you will...using a symbol or image in worship is still unscriptural...
 
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