oldreliable67
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I believe that Iraq will be a part of a bigger picture, and our fight there will be one battle in a much longer war. Saddam isn't our enemy. Bin Laden (may he burn in hell) is not our enemy. Iraq wasn’t our enemy. Al Qaeda isn't our enemy. The Taliban weren't our enemies. They are merely symptoms of decay.
Darkest hours?...Go on and compare the Civil War, the Depression, WWII, and '60 Civil Rights clashes with a war that has liberated 20+ million people and has held elections in HALF the time it took for Germany and Japan after WWII...FinnMacCool said:50 years from now, people are gonna look back at this time and consider it one of America's darkest hours. Where our civil liberties were threatened as it has never been threatened before and where americans didn't have enough pride to say anything and where we made the same mistakes that we had made in the past and simply went ahead. And all in the name of Freedom in democracy. Kinda ironic that over bearing patriots call the war in Iraq a war for freedom and liberty but yet they support the idea of limiting our liberty in order to have security. Ben Franklin put it best "Anyone willing to sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserves neither!"
The words of GWB mentioning liberation were said to the American people before the war even started, but dammit!...you still refuse to listen...FinnMacCool said:Another thing, cnredd, I cannot tell you what Bush was really thinking but neither can you. I don't understand how anyone can look at that liar and see truth in his eyes. I see him on tv all the time (yes I do watch the news) and everything that he said could not convince me of the truth cause it was all the same rehashed bullshit. "The terrorists are evil. We are good. They hate freedom. We love freedom." yet at the same time he attempts to limit our liberty at the same exact time. Its starting to get old. If he cannot find a better explanation for this war then the fact that we are given the Iraqis freedom then I don't know what he can do.
Two points....FinnMacCool said:Meanwhile we are also supporting the Shi'ites, WHO BELIEVE IN A JIHAD, to fight against the Sunnis, who are the normal muslims! How will that benefit the american people!
And who says they HAVE to?...If we wanted everyone to have the same structure as we do, we would've started attacking dictators for that sole purpose decades ago...FinnMacCool said:And as for the Iraqis being happy with us invading there, yeah they are. Saddamn was a son of a bitch. But they have a different idea of democracy then we. They want a constitution based on the Koran. They are not into the idea of American ideals.
You are off by so many miles here, I don't think Kenyan marathon runners could find it...He gassed the KURDS...They have been the best local allies to the US in Iraq...Once again, GySgt could go MUCH further into detail...FinnMacCool said:One of the arguments for those pro war supporters is that HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE! but they fail to realize those people whom he gassed are now fighting against us! How about that? In fact, there are some tribes whom have been fighting for years and years and years that now have stopped fighting to fight us! Cause we are the greater threat!
If after we leave, they fall on their face, it will be of their own doing...We can only provide the tools...They have to use them...FinnMacCool said:Yeah we'll keep supporting the Shi'ites and the kurds. Then, once the dust settles, we'll have a government that is as bad or even worse then Saddam was. And who will suffer? The Iraqis. The very people whom this whole fiasco was SUPPOSEDLY started for.
How European of you...I like your "Democracy will never work because they are so disinclined to live with the freedoms the Western culture provides"...:roll:FinnMacCool said:And then people will look back at this era and shake their head in disbelief. How could we be so stupid
But you refuse to note them...How nice of you...FinnMacCool said:NOTE: I decided not to pick apart your entire argument because I think you are, in some ways, correct.
Darkest hours?...Go on and compare the Civil War, the Depression, WWII, and '60 Civil Rights clashes with a war that has liberated 20+ million people and has held elections in HALF the time it took for Germany and Japan after WWII...
Hate to tell you Finny...It's over-the-top comments like that that make people lose respect...
The words of GWB mentioning liberation were said to the American people before the war even started, but dammit!...you still refuse to listen...
On Saddam Hussein's orders, opponents have been decapitated, wives and mothers of political opponents have been systematically raped as a method of intimidation, and political prisoners have been forced to watch their own children being tortured.
America believes that all people are entitled to hope and human rights, to the non-negotiable demands of human dignity. People everywhere prefer freedom to slavery; prosperity to squalor; self-government to the rule of terror and torture. America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. When these demands are met, the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. The oppression of Kurds, Assyrians, Turkomans, Shi'a, Sunnis and others will be lifted. The long captivity of Iraq will end, and an era of new hope will begin.
Iraq is a land rich in culture, resources, and talent. Freed from the weight of oppression, Iraq's people will be able to share in the progress and prosperity of our time. If military action is necessary, the United States and our allies will help the Iraqi people rebuild their economy, and create the institutions of liberty in a unified Iraq at peace with its neighbors.
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/iraq/bush2002b.htm
The next sentence is part of the same speech...it delves directly into the next portion of the program...
Later this week, the United States Congress will vote on this matter.
Well did they?...I believe they DID!...Did liberation have ANYTHING to do with what they voted on?...Let's check and see...
From the EXACT words of H.R.114...
Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;
Let's check out ANOTHER thing in this resolution...
Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HJ00114:(For some reson, I can't directly link to the text...Click on "Text of Legislation")
Right there in black and white...BTW - The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998???...Wonder who the heck signed THAT one!...(i.e. - "He whom shall not be blamed")
Two points....
1)You're really gonna need to learn some facts about Islam..."Jihad" is the term for "struggle", and is a term used by ALL Muslims...It's the ones that equate it to "war against infidels" that pervert its actual meaning...
2) "Sunnis, who are normal Muslims!"...Almost fell off of my chair on that one...The insurgency is almost completely made up of Sunnis...You need to talk to GySgt...
The local Sunni that are killing Shi'ites largely in the Sunni triangle are the results of temper tantrums and lashing out at an Iraqi progressive mentality being put together by Shi'ites, peaceful Sunni, and Kurds. They are made up largely of former Baathist loyalist and, of course, some that are angry at personal loss through American action (It would be unfair and misleading to omit such things). These local Sunni that make up this "resistance" are becoming more and more seperate as more Sunni are killed by the "insurgency."
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpo...;postcount=784
Two million Christians slaughtered in Sudan....Sunni.
Palestinian terrorists attacks on Israel....Sunni backing from Iran.
Iranian government....Sunni.
The house of Saud (The true lords of terror)....Sunni.
Defiance in the Iraqi elections.....Sunni.
Holding up the current Iraqi constitution....Sunni.
The slaughter of Kurds in Iraq and in Iran.....Sunni.
Saddam Hussein....Sunni.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpo...;postcount=378
Once again...Ill-informed comments lose credibility...
And who says they HAVE to?...If we wanted everyone to have the same structure as we do, we would've started attacking dictators for that sole purpose decades ago...
Do you know what happened in Iraq yesterday?...Were they voting on a Constitution that was put forth by the USA?(Nope)...Or one that was discussed and drawn up by the Iraqi people themselves?(Yup.)...If what you said was true, we would've just crossed out the word "America" and put in "Iraq" on our own Constitution and say to the Iraqi people, "Now go vote on it."...far from the truth...
You are off by so many miles here, I don't think Kenyan marathon runners could find it...He gassed the KURDS...They have been the best local allies to the US in Iraq...Once again, GySgt could go MUCH further into detail...
The following post is REQUIRED reading!
Over 5 million Kurds have proven to all that both can exist and both can exist while being at peace with America and Israel. While the media concentrate on the combat and confusion to the south, over 5 million Iraqi Kurds have brought off a near miracle: They've built a financially efficient, rule-of-law democracy in the Middle East. Elsewhere, the billions are spent to keep a failed state on life support. While the rest of Iraq's population wallows in the region's addiction to blame, the Kurds have rolled up their sleeves and gone to work. There is a lesson here for Iraq and a clear message to the rest of the Middle East and the world.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpo...p;postcount=23
If after we leave, they fall on their face, it will be of their own doing...We can only provide the tools...They have to use them...
How European of you...I like your "Democracy will never work because they are so disinclined to live with the freedoms the Western culture provides"...
But you refuse to note them...How nice of you...
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