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The Real Reason for Iraq

oldreliable67

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On another thread GySgt wrote:

I believe that Iraq will be a part of a bigger picture, and our fight there will be one battle in a much longer war. Saddam isn't our enemy. Bin Laden (may he burn in hell) is not our enemy. Iraq wasn’t our enemy. Al Qaeda isn't our enemy. The Taliban weren't our enemies. They are merely symptoms of decay.
Gunny is on the right track. The answer, IMO, is globalization and a new deterrent paradigm: MAD. But MAD is not the 'mutually assured destruction' of the cold war. The new paradigm is 'mutually assured dependence'. And 'globalization' is not used here in a pejorative sense.

Much of what follows is paraphrased from or like the following is quoted from Thomas Barnetts "The Pentagon's New Map",

"Where globalization is thick with network connectivity, financial transactions, liberal media flows, and collective security, you will find stable governments, rising standards of living, and more deaths by suicide than murder. But where globalization is thinning or just plain absent, you find politically repressive regimes, widespread poverty and disease, routine mass murder, and—most important-the chronic conflicts that incubate the next generation of global terrorists."

In the new 'mutally assured dependence' paradigm, , the war in Iraq is not simply settling old scores, or just an enforced disarmament of illegal weapons, or a distraction in the war on terror. It is a historical tipping point-the US has taken real ownership of strategic security in the age of globalization.

The reason I supported going to war in Iraq is not simply that Saddam is a cutthroat thug willing to kill anyone to stay in power, nor because that regime has clearly supported terrorist networks (even if not al Qaeda directly) over the years. The real reason I support a war like this is that the resulting long-term military commitment will finally force America to deal with the entire economically non-integrated parts of the world as a strategic threat environment.

NY Times columnist Thomas Friedman, in his book "The World is Flat" wrote that no two countries have McDonalds outlets have ever gone to war. Thats globalization. Thats MAD II. Thats what I'm talkin about!

There is plenty of room for discussion for posters of all persuasions. So have at it!
 

cnredd

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From a previous post mostly agreeable to the thread's author's sentiment...

I think the UN was under the assumption that sanctions
would be imposed, the inspectors would come in and
monitor the destruction of chemical & biological weapons
that he already had, and then the sanctions would be lifted.

But Saddam threw in the monkey wrench...He STOPPED the
inspections and kicked the inspectors out. The UN sanctions
didn't have the intent they thought it would, but the UN would
look incredibly stupid if they lifted them after Saddam
removed the inspectors, so to save face, they left the sanctions on.

Now Saddam knew the UN buckled...the ball was in his court...
He'll get the sympathy vote from the Arab nations that the big,
bad UN had killed the little children. Not that he really cared.

So the UN went for Round 2...Inspection time again!

First, the UN would put on that "determined" look and ratify
Resolution 1441, which says, "Saddam's been screwing up; if he
continues to screw up, we might do something extreme." Saddam must've
hurt his abdomen laughing at that one...The only thing they've done
in ten years was put on sanctions, which he was getting around anyway...
What were they going to do next? Put up a billboard saying, "Saddam's
not a very good person"?

This time, Saddam said he would allow inspectors as long as the head
of the inspection team was not American...Guess what?...The UN said "OK"!

Since when was any of the UN demands negotiable?...The UN, as the world
speaking with one voice, should've said "NO...YOU do things OUR way...
not the other way around." The Buckle Boys are VERY consistent...

Meanwhile, the US said, you know what?...These sanctions aren't hurting
the regime...they're hurting the people...and if the UN is stupid enough
to keep this 3-card monte game up, we're gonna have to do this ourselves.

But Bush knew the American people are fickle. If he told them that he
was going into Iraq to free the people and get the sanctions off of
the people's back, the Americans would've yawned and said, "Keep it
down...I'm watching Sex & the City."

So he used data from the previous administration that was outdated and
incomplete recent data and stirred up the troops with the "threat" angle.
It was a complete roll of the dice, and, as we've learned, came up craps.

It probably would've shocked him if WMDs were actually found, but by this time,
he had what he wanted...An open window to get rid of a bad guy and to plant
the seeds of Democracy. Just like childbirth, he knew it was going to be
painful, both in military and political policies, but he knows that,
long term, the world will be better off for it...Let the critics bitch & moan...
Hell, Abe Lincoln was elected President for a second term with only 39% of
the vote! Nine states had ZERO votes for him! And I don't think Abe get
crapped on for what he did, does he? Bush is following the same form...

Hate him now...hate him all you want...but in about 20, 30, or even
50 years from now, when most, if not all, of the dictatorships in the Middle
East are gone and Democracy rules the roost...look back to April, 2003...
Watch the Saddam statue coming down...then you'll know why this was all started.

insert picture of waving flag with a Sousa march in the background...
 

FinnMacCool

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50 years from now, people are gonna look back at this time and consider it one of America's darkest hours. Where our civil liberties were threatened as it has never been threatened before and where americans didn't have enough pride to say anything and where we made the same mistakes that we had made in the past and simply went ahead. And all in the name of Freedom in democracy. Kinda ironic that over bearing patriots call the war in Iraq a war for freedom and liberty but yet they support the idea of limiting our liberty in order to have security. Ben Franklin put it best "Anyone willing to sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserves neither!"

Another thing, cnredd, I cannot tell you what Bush was really thinking but neither can you. I don't understand how anyone can look at that liar and see truth in his eyes. I see him on tv all the time (yes I do watch the news) and everything that he said could not convince me of the truth cause it was all the same rehashed bullshit. "The terrorists are evil. We are good. They hate freedom. We love freedom." yet at the same time he attempts to limit our liberty at the same exact time. Its starting to get old. If he cannot find a better explanation for this war then the fact that we are given the Iraqis freedom then I don't know what he can do.

Meanwhile we are also supporting the Shi'ites, WHO BELIEVE IN A JIHAD, to fight against the Sunnis, who are the normal muslims! How will that benefit the american people!

And as for the Iraqis being happy with us invading there, yeah they are. Saddamn was a son of a bitch. But they have a different idea of democracy then we. They want a constitution based on the Koran. They are not into the idea of American ideals.


One of the arguments for those pro war supporters is that HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE! but they fail to realize those people whom he gassed are now fighting against us! How about that? In fact, there are some tribes whom have been fighting for years and years and years that now have stopped fighting to fight us! Cause we are the greater threat!

Yeah we'll keep supporting the Shi'ites and the kurds. Then, once the dust settles, we'll have a government that is as bad or even worse then Saddam was. And who will suffer? The Iraqis. The very people whom this whole fiasco was SUPPOSEDLY started for.

And then people will look back at this era and shake their head in disbelief. How could we be so stupid?

NOTE: I decided not to pick apart your entire argument because I think you are, in some ways, correct.
 
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cnredd

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FinnMacCool said:
50 years from now, people are gonna look back at this time and consider it one of America's darkest hours. Where our civil liberties were threatened as it has never been threatened before and where americans didn't have enough pride to say anything and where we made the same mistakes that we had made in the past and simply went ahead. And all in the name of Freedom in democracy. Kinda ironic that over bearing patriots call the war in Iraq a war for freedom and liberty but yet they support the idea of limiting our liberty in order to have security. Ben Franklin put it best "Anyone willing to sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserves neither!"
Darkest hours?...Go on and compare the Civil War, the Depression, WWII, and '60 Civil Rights clashes with a war that has liberated 20+ million people and has held elections in HALF the time it took for Germany and Japan after WWII...

Hate to tell you Finny...It's over-the-top comments like that that make people lose respect...

FinnMacCool said:
Another thing, cnredd, I cannot tell you what Bush was really thinking but neither can you. I don't understand how anyone can look at that liar and see truth in his eyes. I see him on tv all the time (yes I do watch the news) and everything that he said could not convince me of the truth cause it was all the same rehashed bullshit. "The terrorists are evil. We are good. They hate freedom. We love freedom." yet at the same time he attempts to limit our liberty at the same exact time. Its starting to get old. If he cannot find a better explanation for this war then the fact that we are given the Iraqis freedom then I don't know what he can do.
The words of GWB mentioning liberation were said to the American people before the war even started, but dammit!...you still refuse to listen...

On Saddam Hussein's orders, opponents have been decapitated, wives and mothers of political opponents have been systematically raped as a method of intimidation, and political prisoners have been forced to watch their own children being tortured.

America believes that all people are entitled to hope and human rights, to the non-negotiable demands of human dignity. People everywhere prefer freedom to slavery; prosperity to squalor; self-government to the rule of terror and torture. America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. When these demands are met, the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. The oppression of Kurds, Assyrians, Turkomans, Shi'a, Sunnis and others will be lifted. The long captivity of Iraq will end, and an era of new hope will begin.

Iraq is a land rich in culture, resources, and talent. Freed from the weight of oppression, Iraq's people will be able to share in the progress and prosperity of our time. If military action is necessary, the United States and our allies will help the Iraqi people rebuild their economy, and create the institutions of liberty in a unified Iraq at peace with its neighbors.


http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/iraq/bush2002b.htm

The next sentence is part of the same speech...it delves directly into the next portion of the program...

Later this week, the United States Congress will vote on this matter.

Well did they?...I believe they DID!...Did liberation have ANYTHING to do with what they voted on?...Let's check and see...

From the EXACT words of H.R.114...

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Let's check out ANOTHER thing in this resolution...

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HJ00114:(For some reson, I can't directly link to the text...Click on "Text of Legislation")

Right there in black and white...BTW - The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998???...Wonder who the heck signed THAT one!...(i.e. - "He whom shall not be blamed")

FinnMacCool said:
Meanwhile we are also supporting the Shi'ites, WHO BELIEVE IN A JIHAD, to fight against the Sunnis, who are the normal muslims! How will that benefit the american people!
Two points....

1)You're really gonna need to learn some facts about Islam..."Jihad" is the term for "struggle", and is a term used by ALL Muslims...It's the ones that equate it to "war against infidels" that pervert its actual meaning...

2) "Sunnis, who are normal Muslims!"...Almost fell off of my chair on that one...The insurgency is almost completely made up of Sunnis...You need to talk to GySgt...

The local Sunni that are killing Shi'ites largely in the Sunni triangle are the results of temper tantrums and lashing out at an Iraqi progressive mentality being put together by Shi'ites, peaceful Sunni, and Kurds. They are made up largely of former Baathist loyalist and, of course, some that are angry at personal loss through American action (It would be unfair and misleading to omit such things). These local Sunni that make up this "resistance" are becoming more and more seperate as more Sunni are killed by the "insurgency."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=88609&postcount=784

Two million Christians slaughtered in Sudan....Sunni.
Palestinian terrorists attacks on Israel....Sunni backing from Iran.
Iranian government....Sunni.
The house of Saud (The true lords of terror)....Sunni.
Defiance in the Iraqi elections.....Sunni.
Holding up the current Iraqi constitution....Sunni.
The slaughter of Kurds in Iraq and in Iran.....Sunni.
Saddam Hussein....Sunni.


http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=72338&postcount=378

Once again...Ill-informed comments lose credibility...

FinnMacCool said:
And as for the Iraqis being happy with us invading there, yeah they are. Saddamn was a son of a bitch. But they have a different idea of democracy then we. They want a constitution based on the Koran. They are not into the idea of American ideals.
And who says they HAVE to?...If we wanted everyone to have the same structure as we do, we would've started attacking dictators for that sole purpose decades ago...

Do you know what happened in Iraq yesterday?...Were they voting on a Constitution that was put forth by the USA?(Nope)...Or one that was discussed and drawn up by the Iraqi people themselves?(Yup.)...If what you said was true, we would've just crossed out the word "America" and put in "Iraq" on our own Constitution and say to the Iraqi people, "Now go vote on it."...far from the truth...

FinnMacCool said:
One of the arguments for those pro war supporters is that HE GASSED HIS OWN PEOPLE! but they fail to realize those people whom he gassed are now fighting against us! How about that? In fact, there are some tribes whom have been fighting for years and years and years that now have stopped fighting to fight us! Cause we are the greater threat!
You are off by so many miles here, I don't think Kenyan marathon runners could find it...He gassed the KURDS...They have been the best local allies to the US in Iraq...Once again, GySgt could go MUCH further into detail...

The following post is REQUIRED reading!

Over 5 million Kurds have proven to all that both can exist and both can exist while being at peace with America and Israel. While the media concentrate on the combat and confusion to the south, over 5 million Iraqi Kurds have brought off a near miracle: They've built a financially efficient, rule-of-law democracy in the Middle East. Elsewhere, the billions are spent to keep a failed state on life support. While the rest of Iraq's population wallows in the region's addiction to blame, the Kurds have rolled up their sleeves and gone to work. There is a lesson here for Iraq and a clear message to the rest of the Middle East and the world.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=59041&postcount=23

FinnMacCool said:
Yeah we'll keep supporting the Shi'ites and the kurds. Then, once the dust settles, we'll have a government that is as bad or even worse then Saddam was. And who will suffer? The Iraqis. The very people whom this whole fiasco was SUPPOSEDLY started for.
If after we leave, they fall on their face, it will be of their own doing...We can only provide the tools...They have to use them...

FinnMacCool said:
And then people will look back at this era and shake their head in disbelief. How could we be so stupid
How European of you...I like your "Democracy will never work because they are so disinclined to live with the freedoms the Western culture provides"...:roll:

FinnMacCool said:
NOTE: I decided not to pick apart your entire argument because I think you are, in some ways, correct.
But you refuse to note them...How nice of you...
 

FinnMacCool

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Darkest hours?...Go on and compare the Civil War, the Depression, WWII, and '60 Civil Rights clashes with a war that has liberated 20+ million people and has held elections in HALF the time it took for Germany and Japan after WWII...

Hate to tell you Finny...It's over-the-top comments like that that make people lose respect...
Give it some time. We're getting a bit too comfortable now. Taking things for granted way too much. We are still a young nation. How long did the Roman Republic last for? Like 400 years.

Oh and I'm sorry if your losing respect for me. I cannot possibly convince you of whats true or whats not nor could you do the same for me. Only time will tell and then we will see who is right.


The words of GWB mentioning liberation were said to the American people before the war even started, but dammit!...you still refuse to listen...

On Saddam Hussein's orders, opponents have been decapitated, wives and mothers of political opponents have been systematically raped as a method of intimidation, and political prisoners have been forced to watch their own children being tortured.

America believes that all people are entitled to hope and human rights, to the non-negotiable demands of human dignity. People everywhere prefer freedom to slavery; prosperity to squalor; self-government to the rule of terror and torture. America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. When these demands are met, the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. The oppression of Kurds, Assyrians, Turkomans, Shi'a, Sunnis and others will be lifted. The long captivity of Iraq will end, and an era of new hope will begin.

Iraq is a land rich in culture, resources, and talent. Freed from the weight of oppression, Iraq's people will be able to share in the progress and prosperity of our time. If military action is necessary, the United States and our allies will help the Iraqi people rebuild their economy, and create the institutions of liberty in a unified Iraq at peace with its neighbors.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/iraq/bush2002b.htm

The next sentence is part of the same speech...it delves directly into the next portion of the program...

Later this week, the United States Congress will vote on this matter.

Well did they?...I believe they DID!...Did liberation have ANYTHING to do with what they voted on?...Let's check and see...

From the EXACT words of H.R.114...

Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Let's check out ANOTHER thing in this resolution...

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HJ00114:(For some reson, I can't directly link to the text...Click on "Text of Legislation")

Right there in black and white...BTW - The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998???...Wonder who the heck signed THAT one!...(i.e. - "He whom shall not be blamed")
Its a shame you took so much time to do all this because it is completely irrelevant as I never denied that Bush had mentioned liberating the Iraqis previously. Same for the Clinton thing.

Two points....

1)You're really gonna need to learn some facts about Islam..."Jihad" is the term for "struggle", and is a term used by ALL Muslims...It's the ones that equate it to "war against infidels" that pervert its actual meaning...

2) "Sunnis, who are normal Muslims!"...Almost fell off of my chair on that one...The insurgency is almost completely made up of Sunnis...You need to talk to GySgt...

The local Sunni that are killing Shi'ites largely in the Sunni triangle are the results of temper tantrums and lashing out at an Iraqi progressive mentality being put together by Shi'ites, peaceful Sunni, and Kurds. They are made up largely of former Baathist loyalist and, of course, some that are angry at personal loss through American action (It would be unfair and misleading to omit such things). These local Sunni that make up this "resistance" are becoming more and more seperate as more Sunni are killed by the "insurgency."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpo...;postcount=784

Two million Christians slaughtered in Sudan....Sunni.
Palestinian terrorists attacks on Israel....Sunni backing from Iran.
Iranian government....Sunni.
The house of Saud (The true lords of terror)....Sunni.
Defiance in the Iraqi elections.....Sunni.
Holding up the current Iraqi constitution....Sunni.
The slaughter of Kurds in Iraq and in Iran.....Sunni.
Saddam Hussein....Sunni.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpo...;postcount=378

Once again...Ill-informed comments lose credibility...
You may interpert the muslims holy koran anyway you wish as you are such an expert on Islam but it is the way those who actually believe in it interpert it that mean anything.

I have never denied that Sunnis are the ones that did all that. And I am completely and fully aware of the fact that Sunnis are the majority of the insurgents. I have never denied this. However you fail to note that the majority of muslims are Sunni. IF you wish, you may look that up here http://lexicorient.com/e.o/sunni.htm

And who says they HAVE to?...If we wanted everyone to have the same structure as we do, we would've started attacking dictators for that sole purpose decades ago...

Do you know what happened in Iraq yesterday?...Were they voting on a Constitution that was put forth by the USA?(Nope)...Or one that was discussed and drawn up by the Iraqi people themselves?(Yup.)...If what you said was true, we would've just crossed out the word "America" and put in "Iraq" on our own Constitution and say to the Iraqi people, "Now go vote on it."...far from the truth...
I'm going to have to go by what your saying here, as I have not heard of otherwise but I think you will find that if the Iraqis really want "America style Freedom" rather then "Iraqi Style Freedom", we're gonna have a problem with them in the near future.

You are off by so many miles here, I don't think Kenyan marathon runners could find it...He gassed the KURDS...They have been the best local allies to the US in Iraq...Once again, GySgt could go MUCH further into detail...

The following post is REQUIRED reading!

Over 5 million Kurds have proven to all that both can exist and both can exist while being at peace with America and Israel. While the media concentrate on the combat and confusion to the south, over 5 million Iraqi Kurds have brought off a near miracle: They've built a financially efficient, rule-of-law democracy in the Middle East. Elsewhere, the billions are spent to keep a failed state on life support. While the rest of Iraq's population wallows in the region's addiction to blame, the Kurds have rolled up their sleeves and gone to work. There is a lesson here for Iraq and a clear message to the rest of the Middle East and the world.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpo...p;postcount=23
Even if its true that the Kurds are our main "allies", it does not disprove the fact that many tribes that have fought against each other for a long time, have now stopped fighting and turned against us.

If after we leave, they fall on their face, it will be of their own doing...We can only provide the tools...They have to use them...
Bull. You want to help the Iraqis right? And then after all that, if they are gonna fall on their face as you put we should just. . .let them? Even after all our soldiers died? Hmm. . .interesting.

How European of you...I like your "Democracy will never work because they are so disinclined to live with the freedoms the Western culture provides"...
I'm not sure what your implying here but let me just say that I have absolutely no problem with democracy. I just think too many people are taking it for granted.

But you refuse to note them...How nice of you...
Ahem....
 
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