The path of Wind and Solar!

[longview]

This article does a good in laying out the problems faced by Wind and Solar power.
The wind and solar power myth has finally been exposed

None of this is difficult to work out. Building even more renewables capacity will not help: even ten or 100 times the nominally-necessary “capacity” could never do the job on a cold, windless evening.

Only one thing can save the day for the renewables plan. Reasonable cost, large scale energy storage, sufficient to keep the lights on for several days at a minimum, would solve the problem.

 

[ataraxia]

This article does a good in laying out the problems faced by Wind and Solar power.
The wind and solar power myth has finally been exposed

OK, so obviously that does it. It proves that climate change science was wrong. Yay!

 

[longview]

OK, so obviously that does it. It proves that climate change science was wrong. Yay!

I am not sure where you get that?
It does speak to our future plans of energy sustainability, that Wind and Solar cannot get us there without
massive energy storage.

 

[bongsaway]

I am not sure where you get that?
It does speak to our future plans of energy sustainability, that Wind and Solar cannot get us there without
massive energy storage.

Did you know getting a heavier than air machine to fly is impossible? Man on the moon? Impossible! Getting my drift?

 

[longview]

Did you know getting a heavier than air machine to fly is impossible? Man on the moon? Impossible! Getting my drift?

Quite a few things are possible, getting 100% duty cycle energy coverage from a non 100% duty cycle source,
without some form of energy storage is not one of them!
At a home scale, you can get close with several expensive batteries, but the grid or a backup source
still needs to be there to cover times when the sunlight does not reach the ground of the wind does not blow.

 

[Jessie C]

This article was written by an engineer in the ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY! Give me a break!

Submission by Bryan Leyland MSc, DistFEng NZ, FIMechE, FIEE(rtd). Bryan has been in the electricity industry for more than 60 years

 

[dmpi]

I'm more excited about solar more than wind. But solar needs a program where solar panels can be effectively recycled. That's not a sexy subject and there's little funding in that area.

 

[ataraxia]

I am not sure where you get that?
It does speak to our future plans of energy sustainability, that Wind and Solar cannot get us there without
massive energy storage.

You seem to like, promote, defend, and bring to attention anything that seems to undermine green energy science and technology, and you continuously promote skepticism towards it.

Just seem too consistent a general theme in all your posts to not suggest a strong underlying agenda to impede and sabotage the technology and promote popular skepticism. Why?

 

[longview]

I'm more excited about solar more than wind. But solar needs a program where solar panels can be effectively recycled. That's not a sexy subject and there's little funding in that area.

I suspect everything in a solar panel could be recycled, I think Solar has more of a chance than wind, simply because
of the limits of material science for the tall delicate wind turbines. A different design might be less efficient, but more robust.

 

[ataraxia]

I suspect everything in a solar panel could be recycled, I think Solar has more of a chance than wind, simply because
of the limits of material science for the tall delicate wind turbines. A different design might be less efficient, but more robust.

Why does there have to be a choice?

 

[longview]

You seem to like, promote, defend, and bring to attention anything that seems to undermine green energy science and technology, and continuously promote skepticism towards it.

Just seem too consistent a general theme in all your posts to not suggest a strong underlying agenda to impede and sabotage the technology and promote popular skepticism. Why?

No, I just think we need to be realistic on our path towards sustainable energy.
The article is correct, in that we cannot achieve our objectives without massive energy storage.
In fact the energy storage really needs to be seasonal to take advantage of the surplus periods,
such that Spring and Fall Surpluses can cover Summer and Winter demands.

 

[longview]

Why does there have to be a choice?

There does not but if the current flavor of wind ends up costing more than it earns it will be discontinued.

 

[Threegoofs]

I heard from a reputable source that once oil hits $94 per barrel, all these problems will be solved.

 

[ataraxia]

No, I just think we need to be realistic on our path towards sustainable energy.

Why? I thought you didn't even think we had any reason to be worrying about "sustainable energy" because climate change is all wrong.

The article is correct, in that we cannot achieve our objectives without massive energy storage.
In fact the energy storage really needs to be seasonal to take advantage of the surplus periods,
such that Spring and Fall Surpluses can cover Summer and Winter demands.

OK. But something tells me there is more to all this. Far more.

Just look at the inflammatory title of the article: "The wind and solar power myth has finally been exposed".

I mean, seriously? "Myth"? Just because the technology may not yet be fully mature? It sounds like the underlying agenda of the article (and yours) is far more than just bringing to everyone's attention that " we cannot achieve our objectives without massive energy storage."

I just want to know why. Because this is ridiculous.

 

[longview]

Why? I thought you didn't even think we had any reason to be worrying about "sustainable energy" because climate change is all wrong.



OK. But something tells me there is more to all this. Far more.

Just look at the inflammatory title of the article: "The wind and solar power myth has finally been exposed".

I mean, seriously? "Myth"? Just because the technology may not yet be fully mature? It sounds like the underlying agenda of the article (and yours) is far more than just bringing to everyone's attention that " we cannot achieve our objectives without massive energy storage."

I just want to know why. Because this is ridiculous.

Sustainable energy is a very real problem, Human Caused climate change not so much.

As for the article's title there is a myth that if we simply built enough wind and solar capacity that it would cover our energy demands,
and this is simply not true without energy storage.

 

[ataraxia]

Sustainable energy is a very real problem, Human Caused climate change not so much.

Every single scientific organization on the planet disagrees, and we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

As for the article's title there is a myth that if we simply built enough wind and solar capacity that it would cover our energy demands,
and this is simply not true without energy storage.

So what are you recommending?

 

[longview]

Every single scientific organization on the planet disagrees, and we can walk and chew gum at the same time.


So what are you recommending?

Sorry, the scientific organizations do not count, only the peer reviewed publications from actual scientist,
and those show enormous uncertainty in the more catastrophic predictions.
The latest IPCC report publishes the 2XCO2 climate sensitivity as being between 1.5 and 3C,
albeit not in direct words. IPCC AR6 SPM

The likely range of total human-caused global surface temperature increase from 1850–1900 to 2010–201911 is 0.8°C to
1.3°C, with a best estimate of 1.07°C. It is likely that well-mixed GHGs contributed a warming of 1.0°C to 2.0°C, other
human drivers (principally aerosols) contributed a cooling of 0.0°C to 0.8°C,

The CO2-eq increase from 1900 to 2019 is ~315 ppm to 500 ppm,
which defines a range of 1°C/ln(500/315) = 2.16, 2.16 X ln(2) =1.5 °C
2°C/ln(500/315)= 4.328, 4.328 X ln(2) = 3.000°C.
the CO2-eq levels are from NOAA AGGI.
You can do the math for yourself if you like.

As for what I am recommending, we need to acknowledge that poor duty cycle electricity has less intrinsic value
than on demand electricity, and consider the full range of options for energy sustainability.
In the US it might be as simple as a national unified grid attach law, that compensates home generators
for their surplus at a realistic value that both homeowner and grid operator can live with.
We also need to acknowledge that any carbon neutral methodology of storing energy moves us towards net zero,
not just the technologies popular with Green supporters. Nuclear, hydrocarbon energy storage, etc.

 

[ataraxia]

As for what I am recommending, we need to acknowledge that poor duty cycle electricity has less intrinsic value
than on demand electricity, and consider the full range of options for energy sustainability.

How is that different than what we are doing? Doesn't mean we stop further research and efforts.

A home with solar panels is going to be cleaner probably about 200 days out of the year, battery power notwithstanding. Not too shabby, I would say.

Of course it would be much more if you lived somewhere like AZ, TX, FL, or CA.

In the US it might be as simple as a national unified grid attach law, that compensates home generators
for their surplus at a realistic value that both homeowner and grid operator can live with.

Home generators? Are you talking about gas-operated, or solar panels?

We also need to acknowledge that any carbon neutral methodology of storing energy moves us towards net zero,
not just the technologies popular with Green supporters. Nuclear, hydrocarbon energy storage, etc.

We are doing the best we can with what we have. It's a direction in which we need to move. Still wouldn't call any of it "myth" though just because we are not at the destination right now.

 

[longview]

How is that different than what we are doing? Doesn't mean we stop further research and efforts.

A home with solar panels is going to be cleaner probably about 364.5 days out of the year, battery power notwithstanding. Not too shabby, I would say.



Home generators? Are you talking about gas-operated, or solar panels?


We are doing the best we can with what we have. It's a direction in which we need to move. Still wouldn't call any of it "myth" though just because we are not at the destination right now.

I like home solar, but you cannot start with your expectation that it will cover the electricity demands of the home for 364.5 days a year.
Home generators are anyone who inputs electricity into the grid for compensation, Solar, Wind, micro Hydro, etc.
Do you really think we are doing the best we can, by creating programs like net metering, that are untenable?

 

[ataraxia]

I like home solar, but you cannot start with your expectation that it will cover the electricity demands of the home for 364.5 days a year.

If you live in AZ or something, not too far off the mark.

Home generators are anyone who inputs electricity into the grid for compensation, Solar, Wind, micro Hydro, etc.
Do you really think we are doing the best we can, by creating programs like net metering, that are untenable?

If the grid providers are OK with it, I don't see the problem. Why do you think it's a problem?

 

[longview]

If you live in AZ or something, not too far off the mark.


If the grid providers are OK with it, I don't see the problem. Why do you think it's a problem?

It is because solar only generates power for about 10 hours per 24 hour day.
Who said the grid providers are ok with net metering? They are pushing back everywhere they can. 1:1 net metering sucks the profit out of the sale of electricity, and has the potential to run the grid operators out of business.

 

[ataraxia]

It is because solar only generates power for about 10 hours per 24 hour day.

That's more than enough for most households, for most days of the year. Not bad.

Who said the grid providers are ok with net metering? They are pushing back everywhere they can. 1:1 net metering sucks the profit out of the sale of electricity, and has the potential to run the grid operators out of business.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's an evolving landscape. There are a lot of ideas and proposals on the table and being discussed and considered. No one wants to see them go out of business.

https://www.nationalacademies.org/en/our-work/the-role-of-net-metering-in-the-evolving-electricity-system

Net Energy Metering (NEM) | How It Works, Benefits, & Drawbacks

This article explains net energy metering (NEM); learn how it works, as well as the benefits and drawbacks.

www.carboncollective.co

What is YOUR proposal?

 

[longview]

That's more than enough for most households, for most days of the year. Not bad.


Maybe. Maybe not. It's an evolving landscape. There are a lot of ideas and proposals on the table and being discussed and considered. No one wants to see them go out of business.

https://www.nationalacademies.org/en/our-work/the-role-of-net-metering-in-the-evolving-electricity-system

Net Energy Metering (NEM) | How It Works, Benefits, & Drawbacks

This article explains net energy metering (NEM); learn how it works, as well as the benefits and drawbacks.

www.carboncollective.co

What is YOUR proposal?

You are missing the point, what is generated during the day, no matter how much cannot cover the night hours at all without energy storage.

The ideas and proposals all come back to reducing the credit per kWh of surplus given, because the initial plan cannot be supported.

It is really difficult to back out of what people are used to, but the value of each surplus kWh is likely slightly below the wholesale price.

 

[ataraxia]

You are missing the point, what is generated during the day, no matter how much cannot cover the night hours at all without energy storage.

Not really- depends on when nightfall is, what season it is, and what you are doing through the night.

"For context, the average American home uses about 30 kWh of electricity each day. So if you have a standard battery with around 10 to 20 kWh of stored capacity, the electricity stored in your battery would only be able to power half of the typical home for a whole day, or the entire consumption for half of a day."

How Long Do Solar Batteries Last?

The typical solar battery stores between 10 and 20 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity, while the average home uses about 30 kWh per day.

news.energysage.com

The ideas and proposals all come back to reducing the credit per kWh of surplus given, because the initial plan cannot be supported.

It is really difficult to back out of what people are used to, but the value of each surplus kWh is likely slightly below the wholesale price.

Don't worry so much.The market has a way of sorting all this out. It's an evolving situation. We shall see.

None of that changes the fact that the current climate change is caused by humans, and potentially catastrophic- enough that every little bit helps.

 

[longview]

Not really- depends on when nightfall is, what season it is, and what you are doing through the night.

"For context, the average American home uses about 30 kWh of electricity each day. So if you have a standard battery with around 10 to 20 kWh of stored capacity, the electricity stored in your battery would only be able to power half of the typical home for a whole day, or the entire consumption for half of a day."

How Long Do Solar Batteries Last?

The typical solar battery stores between 10 and 20 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity, while the average home uses about 30 kWh per day.

news.energysage.com

Don't worry so much.The market has a way of sorting all this out. It's an evolving situation. We shall see.

None of that changes the fact that the current climate change is caused by humans, and potentially catastrophic- enough that every little bit helps.

Note I said without energy storage!
Batteries are expensive and most people run in a grid assist mode, or some type of net metering.
Human caused climate change does not predict any catastrophic outcomes, this is inferred by the media,
but strangely missing from most peer reviewed studies.