• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The new american dream

presluc

DP Veteran
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
10,967
Reaction score
2,134
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Some say be glad you are living in America where prices are cheap.

The jobs are all but gone, the wages are cheap at least for blue collar ,unskilled workers.

Some say thank god for outsourceing you can buy products cheap.

I think it's not a question of can it's a question of have to.

It used to be, be glad you are living in America and got a job to save and buy at prices you could afford. with wages you have earned

Oh yeah about those prices.
I don't see the price of gas going down
Coffe went up
Cars went up
Electronics went up.
Budget cuts went up

I can not speak for others but if this is corporations way of helping me you can stop anytime.
I think I've had enough help anymore I might have to file for bankrupsy.eace
 

sounds like we should continue to devalue the dollar, build more government debt, and increase government spending. then it will all be OK.
 
presluc said:
Some say be glad you are living in America where prices are cheap.

The jobs are all but gone, the wages are cheap at least for blue collar ,unskilled workers.
Click to expand...

A result of over taxing business.


Again, by driving up taxes on business, they must find other ways to remain competitive. Some times that means moving operations out of country, some times that means cutting wages.


The market will support what the market will support. If you want jobs to come back, we must eliminate corporate taxes and drop all these "free trade" agreements. With moderate import tariffs on top of the tax cuts, the US can regain stability in the job market and the economy.
 

Tariffs are an indirect tax on the people. People don't have a "right" to a job. If someone else wants to do it for cheaper, why should we be telling them no?
 
Missed AB said:
sounds like we should continue to devalue the dollar, build more government debt, and increase government spending. then it will all be OK.
Click to expand...

Is that what they call living the dream?

Cause if building more debt with less tax revenue from less jobs to pay for it, WELL?eace
 
Last edited:

Driving up taxes on business??
Business like AIG, GMC, BEAR STERNS?

You cut wages you lose customers less customers more red ink more red ink more bailouts.

The market can only be supported with money, money comes from people with jobs.

You move operations out of the country you move the American customer towards foriegn products.


The U.S. can regain stability in the job market and the economy??
Sounds like I've heard that before in 2004, 2007,2008 right up to the present
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see much stability in the economy today.
I do see a lot of budget cuts no stability, more layoffs no stability, more foreclosures no stabilityeace
 
iamitter said:
Tariffs are an indirect tax on the people. People don't have a "right" to a job. If someone else wants to do it for cheaper, why should we be telling them no?
Click to expand...

AIG, BEAR STERNS,GMC, HALIBURTAN.

If we could get someone else to run these business they never got a chance cause taxpayers paid them to keep thier job.
As you say people don't have a "right" to a job, what gives these people the "right" to keep thiers??

As for Haliburtian nobody will know if someone else wanted that job or could do it better or cheaper, see it was a no bid contract, nobody else got a chance to bid on it.
As you say people do not have the "right" to a job yet this job was signed sealed and delivered with no competition.
Are these "rights"???eace
 

I don't support the bailout (though in reality, the US govt. would have probably been worse off without it. It cost very little and did a lot of good).
I don't support no bid contracts.

Frankly, I was talking to someone else about tariffs. I don't mind you responding to me, but respond to what I say because nothing I said was relevant to what you said.
 

Sorry about that, sir, didn't mean to interupt you
However, in your post you did state that "people have no "right" to a job if someone else wants to do it cheaper"
Your words are they not?
Did you mean all people have no "right" to a job, or was you saying all people except CEOS, and managers of corporations ,energy company owners ect..?
 
Last edited:

I was saying nobody has a "right" and that includes everybody. However, talents and skills are what employ people. If they have them, they are worth something to their employer, they get paid.

Also, I said they have no right to keep their job if someone else wants to do it for less. This means if Bob is getting paid 10$ an hour, but Joe says he'll do the exact same work for $8, Bob does not have a "right" to keep his job just because he wants to. Joe will get the job and Bob has no business crying about it.
 
presluc said:
Is that what they call living the dream?

Cause if building more debt with less tax revenue from less jobs to pay for it, WELL?eace
Click to expand...

You made the claim in your post that it is all the corporate culture and business that are at fault. My response was sarcastic, sorry you didn't get it.
 

You mean the talents and skills of CEOS that run the country into almost bankrupsy and get a bailout then get a bonus.
Anybody can have those talents and skills it's called fraud or as I like to call it a shakedown by a con artist.

Well, are we giving Joe a no bid contract, cause maybe Bob might do the same exact work for $7 an hour
You can't tell if it's a no bid contract can you??
 

What makes you think you're entitled to help from corporations? If you want to whine about something, whine about a Federal government that's spending the country broke; state governments doing the same; and everybody's burning desire for a 52" flat screen.
 
Missed AB said:
You made the claim in your post that it is all the corporate culture and business that are at fault. My response was sarcastic, sorry you didn't get it.
Click to expand...

Odd, my post was a point.
That building more debt with less tax revenue from less jobs to pay of the debt was well kinda bad, not kinda bad it's realy stupid.

Sorry you didn't get it.
 

Sorry, did I miss something like where did these corporations get their bailout money?
Taxpayers, of which I am one.
CEOS get's tax cuts from taxes but America is 3 trillion dollars in debt so where do you think those tax cuts come from?
Taxpayers.

It is not I that am whineing it seems that the CEOS and corporqations are the ones doing the whineing.

I have stated on more than one post if government is to cut spending cut all spending.
So far all I've seen in the form of budget cuts are local teachers, local fire and police, Social Security, trade schools these are middle class to poor budget cuts. to get money.
For what so the rich can get a bigger paycheck from the I.R.S.?

I don't see no budget cuts from the top, that is where the real money is.
Budget cuts from the middle class and poor you get nickles and dimes.
Cut some of that fat from the rich you get DOLLARS.

First these people say we are in dire straights we must have budget cuts.
The middle class takes it, the poor working class takes it, the rich well, uhh sorry???
Who are the real patriots those who sacrifise or those who ask for another check from the I.R.S., , and more tax shelters off shoreeace
 

Thats where the issue is. Not only the government giving out no-bid contracts, but also large corporations giving out "no bid jobs". You can't tell me that GM couldn't have found a decent CEO for less than the $15 million that it was paying that screwup who ran them into the ground by mismanaging the company for 11 years.

Most of the time, but certainly not always, people who have incomes far in excess of that of the average surgeon (around $400,000 a year) recieve their income not because of their productivity, but because of their fame, celebrity, or who they know or who they "blow", or simply by luck.

Every dollar that these overpaid individuals recieve is a dollar less that someone else can recieve. The people who end up recieving less income then purchase fewer goods than they would otherwise purchase, which results in unemployment for many. They also tend to invest less because they have less free income to invest, so ultimately we have to have programs such as welfare and social security so that we don't have rampent poverty. We are a rich country, there is absolutely no reason that anyone who is willing and able to work should live in poverty, not even the street sweeper or dish washer. There is also no reason that other people should be benefited by incomes that exceed the value that they produce, and it is those who recieve excess incomes who cause others to recieve "working poor" wages.
 

Most of us dont have a burning deisre for a 52" flat screen, but even if we did, so what? If the world was productive enough to produce one or two for everyone, then why shouldn't everyone have one or two? Whats wrong with having what we produce? If a million people construct mini-McMansions, why is it that the same million people who built those mansions not afford to live in them? Why do we have beautiful homes, entire neighborhoods in some parts of the country, that have been abandoned because people couldn't afford them? Why cant the middle class afford to own what they build or manufacture? A productive roofer may assist with roofing a hundred houses during a year, but then he can't afford to make the payments on just one of the houses that he roofed? And Mister Rich is now stuck with vacant houses that he has no use for. There's something wrong with the way that wealth and income is distributed.

Anyhow, I don't see where anyone suggested that they are entitled to help from corporations, only that corporations shouldn't be entitled to help from the taxpayer.
 
I thought the dream was:

Living in a relatively nice geographic area, where law and order are firmly in place, and you are free to go about pursuing your life as you see fit.

I think that dream is alive and well, the U.S. is still a leader in these things. What the U.S. is not, is a place that should be catering to the lowest common denominator, or provide for people who want to take it easy and not compete for their living. If you go out and work hard, it's never been a better time. If you want an easy meal ticket...always gonna be tough. Then again, that's a fact of NATURE, not the U.S. Imagine if you had to actually hunt to eat, and boil water, make a fire, chop wood, build your shelter....

We have it so good you should be ashamed for suggesting otherwise.
 
I think the problem is that we have confused "competitive business" with "higher profits for the people at the top." It no longer means "making a better product", or "putting more money into the middle class", or "giving back to the community." It's all about more profit for the wealthy shareholders. The dream is alive and well if you start out rich.
 
imagep said:
If a million people construct mini-McMansions, why is it that the same million people who built those mansions not afford to live in them?
Click to expand...

This entire line of reasoning is absurd. So I installed a widget on the space shuttle, I should be able to afford to buy it?
I hooked up the network of a new hospital, I should be able to afford to own the hospital?

I can't fathom how you could possibly suggest that as a reasonable line of argumentation. Please tell me it's just a joke imagep.
 

Do you know how many manufacturing jobs went over seas?
Do you know how many electronics jobs went overseas?
With local budget cuts do know how many people that work for the local government will be looking for a job.
Do the math, how many people n the streets looking for jobs.
You can't just ask a person that's been trained to do a job 10, 20 years to just go back to college get a degree and start over?
Every job that is lost cost the American and state government money.
Every job has a paycheck every paycheck has taxes taken out.
Example 1 paycheck has say $5 dollars a week taken out, i'm being generous here.
52 WEEKS IN A YEAR, MULTIPLY THAT BY 400, 000 JUST 1 SLICE OF JOBS LOST.
That's just the tax revenue, not even counting the houses that might be bought or the cars that might be bought, or the investments that might be made, or the charities.
 
presluc said:
Sorry, did I miss something like where did these corporations get their bailout money?
Taxpayers, of which I am one.
CEOS get's tax cuts from taxes but America is 3 trillion dollars in debt so where do you think those tax cuts come from?
Taxpayers.
Click to expand...

And these corporations couldn't have gotten a dime if Washington hadn't give it to them. Same thing about the tax cuts. This is about government gone wild. As to where the money comes from? Our future! National Debt: $14.2 trillion and rising. National Debt per every man, woman and child in the US? $45,884. It's not the evil corporations. It's our very own government.


Even if we were to spend every dime of federal revenue on mandatory programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the like), we would still have a $20 billion deficit. When you add in interest payments on the debt ($207 billion), we would have a $227 billion deficit. [/QUOTE] If we spent all our money paying entitlements, we would still be deficit spending…. « Industrial Insight

Entitlement spending is out of control. Yes, there are other problems. But entitlements are surely a very large part of it.

Who are the real patriots those who sacrifise or those who ask for another check from the I.R.S., , and more tax shelters off shoreeace
Click to expand...

Even if this is true, who puts these tax breaks in place? The U.S. Congress. Can't you see that?? Blame the 545 people who actually run our government: 100 senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court Justices. They are the jakes that cause these woes. And then they have the audacity to campaign as if they're going to fix it. The 545 People Responsible For All of America's Woes

Needless to say, these 545 people are delighted to see our class war going on...blaming the rich, blaming the evil corporations...instead of blaming them.
 
Last edited:


No, I don't have any exact figures on any of that, and I really don't want to look'em up because I agree that jobs lost overseas is part of our government deficit problem and our current economic problem.
 
MaggieD said:
Needless to say, these 545 people are delighted to see our class war going on...blaming the rich, blaming the evil corporations...instead of blaming them.
Click to expand...

...Or blaiming the poor, or blaiming the middleclass, or blaiming the unemployed, or blaiming the Arabs, or the insurance companies, or blaiming the progressive income tax system, or blaiming high taxes, or blaiming the 47% who don't pay federal income tax, or the tobbaco companies, or whatever group of people that we somehow would prefer to blame instead of blaiming our elected leaders.

You got a good point.
 

Well I'd kinda like to see what it would be like if those rich guys getting a million + stop getting their tax cuts?
I mean what would happen?
Maybe the economy would collapse, there would be gnashing of teeth and renting of clothes the Dow would tremble and shake, after these rich guys might just maybe have to give up 1 of their 6 houses or heaven forbid actualy give up that extra massage they get at the massage parlor. lol

The uhh common denominator out in the real world is jobs,
Manufacturing gone
Electronics gone
Computer techs on their way

I don't know about your geographic area but mine is America has a majority of blue collar, unskilled workers.
So what they gonna do go back to college after they lose their jobs to outsourceing.
Take a lower paying job already done that still we get budget cuts, budget cuts mean layoffs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…