The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

flogger · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:
Prove that God doesn't exist, otherwise you rely on faith just as believers rely on it

No thats not how it works otherwise I could claim anything to be true. The onus is most certainly not on me to prove a negative first

The truth is you have no proof to back up your beliefs, so its a bit hypocritical to talk down to the faithful.

My proof is your lack of evidence supporting your belief system

flogger · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:
Aethist : A person who disBELIEVES in the existence of God

No simply a normal person who has not chosen to shut down their rational ,cognitive and analytical processes and requires tangible proof of an assertion

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:
There is no evidence for God’s existence?
There is at least one major problem with this line as it is typically presented.
One often hears, “there is no evidence for God, therefore Christians believe in fairytales,” (or something to that effect) when what is actually meant is more like, “there is no physical proof of God’s being in the physical world, therefore Christians believe in fairytales (since all ‘real’ things are physical).”

The fact that Christians have never claimed to believe in a physical God – as merely one more physical being among all other physical beings in the universe – does not stop these sorts of atheists from thinking they have laid waste to 40 centuries of religious thought, experience, and refinement with the mere mention of this evidentiary boogieman. It rarely occurs to them that such physical proof would actually run 100% counter to Judeo-Christian theistic claims. Their argument against a physical God is actually applauded and defended by Christians.

However, if what you mean is something more like, “There is no logical evidence of God’s existence…” then the straw man suddenly becomes a brick wall. The logical arguments for God are vast and time tested against some of the greatest minds of all time working tirelessly against them. They are well-known arguments and can be easily found online or in print, but let me give one quick example.
The fine tuning of the laws of physics...
The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of the least fine-tuned of the above four examples in his book, The Creator and the Cosmos, which is reproduced here:
Such as the fine tuned ratio of electrons and protons (1:10 to 37 power)
One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037. (p. 115)

And there are a lot more just like it, fine tuned to perfection to make the universe, and us living in it

There it is above

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

flogger said:
Still waiting for that proof .....

Already answered it in posts above

joG · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:
There it is above

They've done a DNA test? Compared with whom?

flogger · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:
Already answered it in posts above

No .... You most certainly haven't. Your burden of proof is clearly a good deal lower than most rational posters

Removable Mind · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fearandloathing said:
Except Jesus doesn't have a "final resting place"

He would if he was from Texas...

Cephus · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

flogger said:
Still waiting for that proof .....

You'll be waiting a very, very long time.

flogger · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Cephus said:
You'll be waiting a very, very long time.

As has the rest of humanity

Fenton · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

flogger said:
No thats not how it works otherwise I could claim anything to be true. The onus is most certainly not on me to prove a negative first

My proof is your lack of evidence supporting your belief system

There is no " onus ".

Onus as it pertains to this debate is simply a arbitrary standard hypocritically applied by one side.

The ONUS is on anyone to prove something they believe when they dont have evidence to back up their assertions.

flogger · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:
There is no " onus ".

For those who think rationally there always is

The ONUS is on anyone to prove something they believe when they dont have evidence to back up their assertions.

I agree

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Cephus said:
You'll be waiting a very, very long time.

Fine tuning of physics. Argument against it?

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

flogger said:
As has the rest of humanity

Arguements from the fined tuned constants of physics. Explain why it's not evidence of God. Cause I could give you evidence more and more, but if you don't say why it's not true but instead just say it's not evidence then I'm sorry you lost the debate.

Cephus · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:
Fine tuning of physics. Argument against it?

Not when you can't demonstrate that such fine tuning actually exists. Making an unsubstantiated claim isn't evidence. Let us know when you can demonstrate that what you claim about "fine tuning" is actually objectively true. I suspect we'll be waiting a very, very long time.

Cephus · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:
Arguements from the fined tuned constants of physics. Explain why it's not evidence of God. Cause I could give you evidence more and more, but if you don't say why it's not true but instead just say it's not evidence then I'm sorry you lost the debate.

It isn't anyone's job to prove you're wrong, it's entirely your job to prove that you're right. Show us a direct causal link between "the fine tuned constants of physics" (which you haven't proven to exist) and the specific deity in the Bible. It's no wonder you don't know how badly you're losing because you don't even understand the discussion.

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Cephus said:
Not when you can't demonstrate that such fine tuning actually exists. Making an unsubstantiated claim isn't evidence. Let us know when you can demonstrate that what you claim about "fine tuning" is actually objectively true. I suspect we'll be waiting a very, very long time.

Suppose we went on a mission to Mars, and found a domed structure in which everything was set up just right for life to exist. The temperature, for example, was set around 70o F and the humidity was at 50%; moreover, there was an oxygen recycling system, an energy gathering system, and a whole system for the production of food. Put simply, the domed structure appeared to be a fully functioning biosphere. What conclusion would we draw from finding this structure? Would we draw the conclusion that it just happened to form by chance? Certainly not. Instead, we would unanimously conclude that it was designed by some intelligent being. Why would we draw this conclusion? Because an intelligent designer appears to be the only plausible explanation for the existence of the structure. That is, the only alternative explanation we can think of--that the structure was formed by some natural process--seems extremely unlikely. Of course, it is possible that, for example, through some volcanic eruption various metals and other compounds could have formed, and then separated out in just the right way to produce the "biosphere," but such a scenario strikes us as extraordinarily unlikely, thus making this alternative explanation unbelievable.
The universe is analogous to such a "biosphere," according to recent findings in physics. Almost everything about the basic structure of the universe--for example, the fundamental laws and parameters of physics and the initial distribution of matter and energy--is balanced on a razor's edge for life to occur.

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Cephus said:
It isn't anyone's job to prove you're wrong, it's entirely your job to prove that you're right. Show us a direct causal link between "the fine tuned constants of physics" (which you haven't proven to exist) and the specific deity in the Bible. It's no wonder you don't know how badly you're losing because you don't even understand the discussion.

A few examples of this fine-tuning are listed below:

1. If the initial explosion of the big bang had differed in strength by as little as 1 part in 1060, the universe would have either quickly collapsed back on itself, or expanded too rapidly for stars to form. In either case, life would be impossible. [See Davies, 1982, pp. 90-91. (As John Jefferson Davis points out (p. 140), an accuracy of one part in 10^60 can be compared to firing a bullet at a one-inch target on the other side of the observable universe, twenty billion light years away, and hitting the target.)

2. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322.)

3. Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 10 to the 40th power, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible. (Davies, 1984, p. 242.)

4. If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 )

5. If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons. (Leslie, 1988, p. 299.)

Imaginatively, one could think of each instance of fine-tuning as a radio dial: unless all the dials are set exactly right, life would be impossible. Or, one could think of the initial conditions of the universe and the fundamental parameters of physics as a dart board that fills the whole galaxy, and the conditions necessary for life to exist as a small one-foot wide target: unless the dart hits the target, life would be impossible. The fact that the dials are perfectly set, or the dart has hit the target, strongly suggests that someone set the dials or aimed the dart, for it seems enormously improbable that such a coincidence could have happened by chance.

Montecresto · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:
Huh ?

Lol !! I guess I'm not going to get a honest answer out of someone who celebrates Marx.

Funny you can make the claim that any old thing exists, and then challenge somebody to prove it doesn't, lol. We're having difficulty getting the straight honest answers from you.

Manc Skipper · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

It's likely that universes with such variables exist, or not. We know this one does. Had it been different then evolution would have gone differently and we would not exist as we do. If the dinosaurs hadn't been killed off by the Chicxulub impact, the mammals might still be scuttling around in trees and burrows like squirrels.

Cephus · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

JFish123 said:
A few examples of this fine-tuning are listed below:

1. If the initial explosion of the big bang had differed in strength by as little as 1 part in 1060, the universe would have either quickly collapsed back on itself, or expanded too rapidly for stars to form. In either case, life would be impossible. [See Davies, 1982, pp. 90-91. (As John Jefferson Davis points out (p. 140), an accuracy of one part in 10^60 can be compared to firing a bullet at a one-inch target on the other side of the observable universe, twenty billion light years away, and hitting the target.)

And if it had done that, we wouldn't be here debating it. That might have happened a billion times in the past, leaving no intelligent life to consider the possibilities. That does not prove that the universe was created by an intelligent force specifically for us. Try again.

2. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322.)

Likewise, our form of life wouldn't have been possible. That doesn't mean a different form of life wouldn't have taken hold. We evolved under the conditions that existed in this universe. You're arguing like the puddle who believes that the hole it's in was created perfectly to fit it.

3. Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 10 to the 40th power, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible. (Davies, 1984, p. 242.)

Same old nonsense, try again.

4. If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible. (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 )

Yadda yadda.

5. If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons. (Leslie, 1988, p. 299.)

We're all still waiting for you to demonstrate that any of this is the product of a supernatural deity specifically for humanity. When do you think you're going to get to that?

zyzygy · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Fenton said:
Aethist believe God doesn't exist.

You believe in something you cannot prove.

Stop being hypocritical and admit you too rely on faith to back your assertions.

I have never seen proof of the existence of a god. Atheists suspect that gods do not exist. Do you believe that Krishna exists?

JFish123 · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Cephus said:
And if it had done that, we wouldn't be here debating it. That might have happened a billion times in the past, leaving no intelligent life to consider the possibilities. That does not prove that the universe was created by an intelligent force specifically for us. Try again.

Likewise, our form of life wouldn't have been possible. That doesn't mean a different form of life wouldn't have taken hold. We evolved under the conditions that existed in this universe. You're arguing like the puddle who believes that the hole it's in was created perfectly to fit it.

Same old nonsense, try again.

Yadda yadda.

We're all still waiting for you to demonstrate that any of this is the product of a supernatural deity specifically for humanity. When do you think you're going to get to that?

Like before, atheists will try to reason away the evidence if it doesn't fit their pre conceived world view. Even if given more and more evidence, they will always ask for more evidence no matter how much you provide. Always questions, even when provided answers. Well, you say it doesn't mean life couldn't gave arisen another way... But it didn't. It's a "what if" to explain away the evidence provided. "It MIGHT have happened a billion times in the past," you say." Another "what if."
Atheists will always revert to "what if" scenarios to try to explain away evidence for God. The problem isn't the evidence, which I can give far more of, however it would prove vain. The problem is the atheist interpretation of the evidence, as they cannot bear to think there lives will be held accountable to someone above even them.

Grant · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

zyzygy said:
I have never seen proof of the existence of a god.

And others have. Perhaps you will one day feel the presence of God and perhaps not. Either way it doesn't really matter to those who have had the experience.

Dovkan · Apr 18, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Grant said:
And others have. Perhaps you will one day feel the presence of God and perhaps not. Either way it doesn't really matter to those who have had the experience.

Are all muslims wrong about their experience? Hindus? Pagans?

Grant · Apr 19, 2015

Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

Dovkan said:
Are all muslims wrong about their experience? Hindus? Pagans?

Perhaps you should direct your question to them.

The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

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