THE HARD TRUTH ABOUT IMMIGRATION

[NWRatCon]

Sometimes I come across a piece that furthers a discussion on an important subject. Unfortunately, there is not always access to the piece. This is just such a piece: THE HARD TRUTH ABOUT IMMIGRATION (Atlantic).

I don't agree with all of the author's (David Leonhardt) points, but it is a thorough and thoughtful discussion of this thorny issue. I'll provide what direct quotes as I can. It focuses, initially, on the 1965 modifications of immigration laws that still control the process today.

Some excerpts:

"I realize that some readers may be feeling a little uncomfortable about the history described here. The celebration of immigration has become core to the political beliefs of many Americans, on both the left and the right. Immigrants are underdogs, heroes, and—for most of us—ancestors. Many opponents of immigration are xenophobes. In the 21st century, the contours of the immigration debate can seem binary: Somebody is either in favor of immigration or opposed to it.

Historically, however, the debate was more nuanced. It included many people who were comfortable distinguishing between the issues of who should be admitted and how many should be admitted. Separating these two makes clear that it is possible to honor immigrants and decry bigotry without believing that more immigration is always better. The people who wrote the 1965 law claimed to hold precisely these beliefs."
....
"At a moment when immigration has returned to political prominence, it helps to think about the continuing post-1965 immigration wave through three empirical questions. First, how have the immigrants fared in this country? Second, what have been the economic effects for people who were already in the United States? And third, how has the immigration wave altered American politics?"

I think those are core issues for this discussion. More will follow, but feel free to jump in.

 

[dmpi]

I will go out on a limb and say the Vietnam immigration was that last great wave of immigration that had a profoundly positive effect on America. After that... not so much.

 

[Slavister]

I will go out on a limb and say the Vietnam immigration was that last great wave of immigration that had a profoundly positive effect on America. After that... not so much.

Which waves of immigration are you aware of after Vietnam? And why do you think they did not have as positive of an effect as Vietnam one?

 

[Peacenik]

Sometimes I come across a piece that furthers a discussion on an important subject. Unfortunately, there is not always access to the piece. This is just such a piece: THE HARD TRUTH ABOUT IMMIGRATION (Atlantic).

I don't agree with all of the author's (David Leonhardt) points, but it is a thorough and thoughtful discussion of this thorny issue. I'll provide what direct quotes as I can. It focuses, initially, on the 1965 modifications of immigration laws that still control the process today.

Some excerpts:

"I realize that some readers may be feeling a little uncomfortable about the history described here. The celebration of immigration has become core to the political beliefs of many Americans, on both the left and the right. Immigrants are underdogs, heroes, and—for most of us—ancestors. Many opponents of immigration are xenophobes. In the 21st century, the contours of the immigration debate can seem binary: Somebody is either in favor of immigration or opposed to it.

Historically, however, the debate was more nuanced. It included many people who were comfortable distinguishing between the issues of who should be admitted and how many should be admitted. Separating these two makes clear that it is possible to honor immigrants and decry bigotry without believing that more immigration is always better. The people who wrote the 1965 law claimed to hold precisely these beliefs."
....
"At a moment when immigration has returned to political prominence, it helps to think about the continuing post-1965 immigration wave through three empirical questions. First, how have the immigrants fared in this country? Second, what have been the economic effects for people who were already in the United States? And third, how has the immigration wave altered American politics?"

I think those are core issues for this discussion. More will follow, but feel free to jump in.

It really boils down to an overall strategy by Republicans to simply avoid as much immigration as possible because they believe immigrants and their immediate descendants tend to favor Democrats.

Republicans believe their party will be harmed over time by allowing more immigration.

That must be it because there are so many benefits for America from immigration that it is very logical to increase the allowed levels:

Benefits for America from increased immigration levels:

1. Get more work done - improve American productivity.
2. Get the less desirable physical jobs done that spoiled Americans don't want to take.
3. Have more people paying taxes.
4. Have more young workers paying into the Social Security and Medicare systems.
5. Increase the GDP.
6. Make America stronger, greater, by increasing American population.
7. Augment the falling birth rate in America.
8. A bigger market for retailers - more buying public out there.

 

[reflechissez]

It really boils down to an overall strategy by Republicans to simply avoid as much immigration as possible because they believe immigrants and their immediate descendants tend to favor Democrats.

Republicans believe their party will be harmed over time by allowing more immigration.

That must be it because there are so many benefits for America from immigration that it is very logical to increase the allowed levels:

Benefits for America from increased immigration levels:

1. Get more work done - improve American productivity.
2. Get the less desirable physical jobs done that spoiled Americans don't want to take.
3. Have more people paying taxes.
4. Have more young workers paying into the Social Security and Medicare systems.
5. Increase the GDP.
6. Make America stronger, greater, by increasing American population.
7. Augment the falling birth rate in America.
8. A bigger market for retailers - more buying public out there.

Republican business men/women who rely on immigrant labor are perfectly happy with how immigration works in practice. They pretend to be against it in policy.

 

[Cynical]

It really boils down to an overall strategy by Republicans to simply avoid as much immigration as possible because they believe immigrants and their immediate descendants tend to favor Democrats.

Republicans believe their party will be harmed over time by allowing more immigration.

That must be it because there are so many benefits for America from immigration that it is very logical to increase the allowed levels:

Benefits for America from increased immigration levels:

1. Get more work done - improve American productivity.
2. Get the less desirable physical jobs done that spoiled Americans don't want to take.
3. Have more people paying taxes.
4. Have more young workers paying into the Social Security and Medicare systems.
5. Increase the GDP.
6. Make America stronger, greater, by increasing American population.
7. Augment the falling birth rate in America.
8. A bigger market for retailers - more buying public out there.

You're ignoring some of the downside:

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[eohrnberger]

You're ignoring some of the downside:

MSN

www.msn.com

All the more reason and justification to send the flood of migrants which the Biden border policies have permitted into the nation to those sanctuary states and cities, who's liberal / progressive / Democrat populations are more than happy to support being a sanctuary state or city, up until it costs them money, or over extends services.

When it impacts those liberal / progressive / Democrat populations in those sanctuary states and cities they bitch like hell, and go to the feds with their hands out looking for money. When the flood of migrants remain in non-sanctuary states and cities, they are simply pleased they don't have to pay or be inconvenienced, someone else's money and trouble.

 

[NWRatCon]

You're ignoring some of the downside:

MSN

www.msn.com

Which really has nothing to do with immigration, but Republican anti-healthcare policies. "The hospitals don’t ask patients about their immigration status, but compiled data about care given to people who don’t have a Social Security number or health insurance." So much losing!

 

[NWRatCon]

Here's a subscription-free link!

 

[dncc]

I think if you boil it down to it's essence, it's West Side Story all over again...played out with actors and actresses who do not even know the musical. A lot of whites (not all) and particularly those who fashion themselves as conservatives (again--not all) are most afraid of making room in their families for Latinos. My late father in law was for damn sure. My sister-in-law (his daughter) had to elope because it brought such turmoil into the family. I knew about it before anyone else in the family did--we always had that sort of relationship...we discussed everything, warts and all. As it turned out, my father in law came to like his latino son in law more than he liked me! They golfed together, went shrimping together in Louisiana; would have gone hunting together.

 

[Peacenik]

You're ignoring some of the downside:

MSN

www.msn.com

Would be solved with not-for-profit Universal Healthcare that everyone needs and everyone should pay into according to their ability to pay.

 

[j brown's body]

You're ignoring some of the downside:

MSN

www.msn.com

Not sure this is so much of a downside as a challenge,

Less concentration of immigrants could help remedy this.

 

[j brown's body]

To be honest, if not for the Republicans demonizing and attacking immigrants, I would scarcely recognize it as an issue. It has virtually no impact on my life and their hatred of immigrants contributes to our poor response to their influx (re: their recent sinking of the bi-partisan immigration bill)

 

[j brown's body]

All the more reason and justification to send the flood of migrants which the Biden border policies have permitted into the nation to those sanctuary states and cities, who's liberal / progressive / Democrat populations are more than happy to support being a sanctuary state or city, up until it costs them money, or over extends services.

When it impacts those liberal / progressive / Democrat populations in those sanctuary states and cities they bitch like hell, and go to the feds with their hands out looking for money. When the flood of migrants remain in non-sanctuary states and cities, they are simply pleased they don't have to pay or be inconvenienced, someone else's money and trouble.

Playing politics with Immigration isn't particularly helpful. There has to be more to this than the Republican effort to stoke hate and fear.

 

[Cynical]

Would be solved with not-for-profit Universal Healthcare that everyone needs and everyone should pay into according to their ability to pay.

Are you saying that we can provide healthcare for everyone in the world who would like to come to America?

 

[Peacenik]

Are you saying that we can provide healthcare for everyone in the world who would like to come to America?

No, I did not say that. It wasn't in my post, so I did not say it. If I had wanted to say that I would have said that. So don't make things up and ask if I said them when clearly I did not say that, as you could very well read for yourself.

There are Americans who travel abroad and need healthcare. Often times when their treatment is complete they ask how they should pay and the answer is no charge it's on us. If other countries can do that so can we. President Biden already offered to solve the immigration issue but Republicans refused. Any immigration issues are on Republicans now. Republicans totally own the border issue. It's all theirs.

Any country that offers universal healthcare would be a great country. In order to do that we are going to have to fix a lot of things. Healthcare is too expensive. That's because the whole point of being in the healthcare business is not to provide healthcare but to make lots of money. It doesn't have to be that way. People should be paid adequately for what they do but people should not be getting rich from healthcare. We need a system where the goal is to provide healthcare, not to make money. We simply have our priorities all wrong.

We have a huge capitalist system which encourages people to be lazy, do nothing to stay healthy, no exercise, no fitness, eat all wrong, get fat, get diabetes, get all kinds of avoidable expensive health conditions. We need a society which encourages and rewards good healthy habits. America is on the wrong track. We have let capitalism have it's way and it is literally killing us as rich people make a killing doing it to us. A nation full of couch potatoes.

Did you know the chemical industry has no regulation to require new compounds to be tested for safety? We have lots of things that cause cancer and it's all legal. Sometimes a warning label says something about "Known by the State of California to cause cancer." That is not enough. We are living all wrong. We could be a lot happier, healthier and live longer for lower healthcare costs if we got organized and got smart.

The problem is the rich corporations have bought our government. They tell government what to do, not the voters. The only purpose of the voters is to respond to right wing propaganda and put corporate lackeys in office to do what big money wants. The propaganda aims to get people pissed off and deeply resentful of the very government that could serve we the people; and never blame the big money corporations for anything. It has gotten so bad that millions of people want indicted Donald the selfish prolific liar to be a strongman authoritarian ruler for life and have total control over all parts of government. All because Donald encourages hatred and resentment and 'speaks for his voters' voicing all their misplaced grievances and resentment of government and diverse society.

Yes to Universal healthcare, yes to sensible immigration policy that admits willing workers who will expand our GDP, pay taxes, social security, medicare, create jobs, become good Americans. Their work will pay for their healthcare. Nothing to worry about. Even if they are low paid, they will pay something. The super rich who exploit their labor can pay the rest, as it should be.

 

[mrjurrs]

I will go out on a limb and say the Vietnam immigration was that last great wave of immigration that had a profoundly positive effect on America. After that... not so much.

Then maybe it is time for you to do some additional research on the issue.

"The surge in immigration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade by swelling the labor force and increasing demand, the Congressional Budget Office said on Wednesday. The stronger growth will be good for the federal government, lifting revenues by about $1 trillion more than otherwise over the period, according to the non-partisan agency. Wages, however, will rise more slowly, in part reflecting the increase in the number of lower skilled workers, in the CBO’s estimation."

Immigration Surge Forecasted to Boost U.S. Economy

Growth in the labor force driven by migration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade, per the Congressional Budget Office.

time.com

 

[NWRatCon]

Then maybe it is time for you to do some additional research on the issue.

"The surge in immigration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade by swelling the labor force and increasing demand, the Congressional Budget Office said on Wednesday. The stronger growth will be good for the federal government, lifting revenues by about $1 trillion more than otherwise over the period, according to the non-partisan agency. Wages, however, will rise more slowly, in part reflecting the increase in the number of lower skilled workers, in the CBO’s estimation."

Immigration Surge Forecasted to Boost U.S. Economy

Growth in the labor force driven by migration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade, per the Congressional Budget Office.

time.com

I planned to post that, too. Indeed, I planned to start a separate thread on it.

 

[multivita-man]

Then maybe it is time for you to do some additional research on the issue.

"The surge in immigration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade by swelling the labor force and increasing demand, the Congressional Budget Office said on Wednesday. The stronger growth will be good for the federal government, lifting revenues by about $1 trillion more than otherwise over the period, according to the non-partisan agency. Wages, however, will rise more slowly, in part reflecting the increase in the number of lower skilled workers, in the CBO’s estimation."

Immigration Surge Forecasted to Boost U.S. Economy

Growth in the labor force driven by migration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade, per the Congressional Budget Office.

time.com

Immigration is necessary for economic growth and the modern pension state. It also fuels ecological destruction by feeding the pro-growth machine, which will, over time, continue to contribute to our ecological destruction and cause inflation. I don't blame immigrants for that. They are just seeking to be part of our system. The difference between natives and immigrants is that we participate in this system because we inherited it.

 

[Borg Refinery]

If migration collapses, the US may start to because the native birth rate is below replacement levels.

It's also true that migrants both illegal and legal contribute more in taxes than they take out, and commit lower levels of crime. Stats available on request..

It's also true that some countries, like Russia, have been trying to intentionally flood countries in Europe with migrants - It's also true that Nicaragua wants to flood the USA with migrants as a weapon: https://www.yahoo.com/news/nicaragua-weaponizing-us-bound-migrants-203044210.html

MEXICO CITY (AP) — More than 260 charter flights believed to be carrying migrants from Haiti have touched down in Nicaragua in recent months, according to flight data and experts in the region, adding to a historic crush of migration by people hoping to reach the U.S.

The flow of migrants has left the Biden administration and Latin American leaders scrambling for solutions, and experts say it's also being used as leverage by governments like Nicaragua’s to get concessions from the U.S. amid tightening sanctions.

“The Ortega government knows they have few important policy tools at hand to confront the United States, ... so they have armed migration as a way to attack," said Manuel Orozco, director of the migration, remittances and development program at the Inter-American Dialogue. “This is definitely a concrete example of weaponizing migration as a foreign policy."

There does need to be a stronger border and tougher migration controls, while at the same time being less cruelty and unevenness of response to the migrant crisis.

 

[mrjurrs]

To be honest, if not for the Republicans demonizing and attacking immigrants, I would scarcely recognize it as an issue. It has virtually no impact on my life and their hatred of immigrants contributes to our poor response to their influx (re: their recent sinking of the bi-partisan immigration bill)

If you eat fruit or vegetables they have an impact on your life. That's not the only way they benefit the 'legal' population of America, but it is a prominent one.