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The gospel accounts...

vesper said:
Yes we agree Eusebius' theory is off the rails.

If you are looking for specific Scripture that states "This is the genealogy of Mary" there is none but how the writing in Greek shows it was Mary's line.

I found the most excellent article at Jews for Jesus that gives a great explanation for the differences in the genealogies of Matthew and Luke with very good insight.

https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v05-n06/the-genealogy-of-the-messiah/
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I have found that information for Jews for jesus to be highly inaccurate and the explanation at J4J's does not accurately reflect Jewish law and tradition.
 
RAMOSS said:
I have found that information for Jews for jesus to be highly inaccurate and the explanation at J4J's does not accurately reflect Jewish law and tradition.
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I found it very insightful.
I also pulled out my New Unger Bible Dictionary and had a brief but informative study on genealogies in Scripture and the chronology of Yeshua It also backed up what Jews for Jesus presented.

It's a good day when you have a greater understanding than the day before.
 
vesper said:
I found it very insightful.
I also pulled out my New Unger Bible Dictionary and had a brief but informative study on genealogies in Scripture and the chronology of Yeshua It also backed up what Jews for Jesus presented.

It's a good day when you have a greater understanding than the day before.
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The problem is, well, that's looking at it from a Christian perspective, but when you talk about genealogies, and bloodlines about Jewish people, you have to match Jewish law and tradition. The J4J site (I do not consider J4J to be of the Jewish faith, they are an evangelistic movement trying to convert Jews to Christianity) they are not using Jewish law and tradition.

When an explanation has to misrepresent what the Jewish law and tradition is, that explanation is suspect.
 
RAMOSS said:
The problem is, well, that's looking at it from a Christian perspective, but when you talk about genealogies, and bloodlines about Jewish people, you have to match Jewish law and tradition. The J4J site (I do not consider J4J to be of the Jewish faith, they are an evangelistic movement trying to convert Jews to Christianity) they are not using Jewish law and tradition.

When an explanation has to misrepresent what the Jewish law and tradition is, that explanation is suspect.
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I do think there has been much misinterpretation due to the lack of understanding/knowledge of the LAW. And it cuts both ways though. I have said many times you can put three Jews in one room and ask them a question and you can put 3 Christians in another room and ask them the same question and you will end up with 8 different interpretations.

And there is the loss through translation from Hebrew to Greek to English etc. just like the Jews for Jesus article pointed out "In English it is not good grammar to use a definite article (“the”) before a proper name (“the” Matthew, “the” Luke, “the” Miriam): however, it is quite permissible in Greek grammar. In the Greek text of Luke’s genealogy, every single name mentioned has the Greek definite article “the” with one exception: the name of Joseph (Luke 3:23). Someone reading the original would understand by the missing definite article from Joseph’s name that this was not really Joseph’s genealogy, but his wife Miriam’s (Mary)." and it went on to state "The absence of Miriam’s name is quite in keeping with the Jewish practices on genealogies. The Jerusalem Talmud recognized this genealogy to be that of Miriam (Mary) and not Joseph and refers to Miriam as the daughter of Heli (Hagigah 2:2)."

Yes this is about the Christian Gospels. What I read today was very enlightening in a Christian perspective.
 
vesper said:
I do think there has been much misinterpretation due to the lack of understanding/knowledge of the LAW. And it cuts both ways though. I have said many times you can put three Jews in one room and ask them a question and you can put 3 Christians in another room and ask them the same question and you will end up with 8 different interpretations.

And there is the loss through translation from Hebrew to Greek to English etc. just like the Jews for Jesus article pointed out "In English it is not good grammar to use a definite article (“the”) before a proper name (“the” Matthew, “the” Luke, “the” Miriam): however, it is quite permissible in Greek grammar. In the Greek text of Luke’s genealogy, every single name mentioned has the Greek definite article “the” with one exception: the name of Joseph (Luke 3:23). Someone reading the original would understand by the missing definite article from Joseph’s name that this was not really Joseph’s genealogy, but his wife Miriam’s (Mary)." and it went on to state "The absence of Miriam’s name is quite in keeping with the Jewish practices on genealogies. The Jerusalem Talmud recognized this genealogy to be that of Miriam (Mary) and not Joseph and refers to Miriam as the daughter of Heli (Hagigah 2:2)."

Yes this is about the Christian Gospels. What I read today was very enlightening in a Christian perspective.
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Yet, when it comes to bloodlines, that is one thing there isn't disagreement on. Someone's Jewishness goes through their maternal line. THe blood line goes through the bloodline of the biological father.


As for the Mirriarm daughter of Heli, the one that is referred to in the Talmud is not the mother of Yeshua ben jospesh. And, your reference to Hagigah 2:2 is incorrect. This is the text of that passage, and has nothing to with Mirriam or Heli

Yosi ben Yoezer says we do not lay hands on the Chagigah offering, while Yosi ben Yohanan says we do. Yehoshua ben Perachia says not to lay hands, while Nitai the Arbelite says to lay hands. Yehuda ben Tavai says not to lay hands, while Shimon ben Shetach says to lay hands. Shemaya says to lay hands, while Avtalyon says not to lay hands. Hillel and Menahem did not disagree; when Menahem left, he was replaced by Shammai. Shammai says not to lay hands, while Hillel says to lay hands. The first person named in each pair was the nasi (head of the Sanhedrin) and the second person in each pair was the av beis din (the second in command of the Sanhedrin).
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There are a lot of fake quotes from the Talmud going on Christian sites. .. and the fact you use one that does not mention what you say it does makes your source suspect.

Tjhe one that is usually , quite invalidly, brought up as the mother of Jesus is in 4b not 2:2.. and the full text of that online can be found at https://www.sefaria.org/Chagigah.4b?lang=en

and it is as follows

When Rabbi Ami reached this verse, he cried: “Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you shall be hidden on the day of the Lord’s anger”(Zephaniah 2:3). He said: All of this is expected of each individual, and only perhaps God’s anger may be hidden? Likewise, when Rabbi Asi reached this verse, he cried: “Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish justice in the gate; perhaps the Lord, the God of hosts, will be gracious” (Amos 5:15). He said: All of this, and only perhaps?

When Rav Yosef reached this verse, he cried: “But there are those swept away without justice” (Proverbs 13:23). He said: Is there one who goes before his time and dies for no reason? The Gemara answers: Yes, like this incident of Rav Beivai bar Abaye, who would be frequented by the company of the Angel of Death and would see how people died at the hands of this angel. The Angel of Death said to his agent: Go and bring me, i.e., kill, Miriam the raiser, i.e., braider, of women’s hair. He went, but instead brought him Miriam, the raiser of babies.

The Angel of Death said to him: I told you to bring Miriam, the raiser of women’s hair. His agent said to him: If so, return her to life. He said to him: Since you have already brought her, let her be counted toward the number of deceased people. Apparently, this woman died unintentionally. Rav Beivai asked the agent: But as her time to die had not yet arrived, how were you able to kill her? The agent responded that he had the opportunity, as she was holding a shovel in her hand and with it she was lighting
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Well, let's face it...how trustworthy can Jewish sites be? They did get it wrong about the Messiah after all...
 
RAMOSS said:
Yet, when it comes to bloodlines, that is one thing there isn't disagreement on. Someone's Jewishness goes through their maternal line. THe blood line goes through the bloodline of the biological father.


As for the Mirriarm daughter of Heli, the one that is referred to in the Talmud is not the mother of Yeshua ben jospesh. And, your reference to Hagigah 2:2 is incorrect. This is the text of that passage, and has nothing to with Mirriam or Heli



There are a lot of fake quotes from the Talmud going on Christian sites. .. and the fact you use one that does not mention what you say it does makes your source suspect.

Tjhe one that is usually , quite invalidly, brought up as the mother of Jesus is in 4b not 2:2.. and the full text of that online can be found at https://www.sefaria.org/Chagigah.4b?lang=en

and it is as follows
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Look Ramoss I have worked with Jews for Jesus in the past in introducing to Christian churches here in my area a greater understanding of Scripture. I have been part of their services in churches explaining the Feast of the Passover and how Yeshua fulfilled it. But not only that, He fulfilled the Feast of the Unleavened Bread and the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Pentecost. All the Spring Feasts. They have provided a wonderful depth of understanding to many Gentiles across the country in their Jewish learning that they so much lacked. And at the same time I have watched Jews at their gatherings walk forward and declare Yeshua as their Messiah and there is much rejoicing.

So I will have to at this point state your opinions of Jews for Jesus is from a Jew who disagrees with them and leave it at that. Good evening.
 
vesper said:
Look Ramoss I have worked with Jews for Jesus in the past in introducing to Christian churches here in my area a greater understanding of Scripture. I have been part of their services in churches explaining the Feast of the Passover and how Yeshua fulfilled it. But not only that, He fulfilled the Feast of the Unleavened Bread and the Feast of First Fruits and the Feast of Pentecost. All the Spring Feasts. They have provided a wonderful depth of understanding to many Gentiles across the country in their Jewish learning that they so much lacked. And at the same time I have watched Jews at their gatherings walk forward and declare Yeshua as their Messiah and there is much rejoicing.

So I will have to at this point state your opinions of Jews for Jesus is from a Jew who disagrees with them and leave it at that. Good evening.
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That still does not change the fact they are not of the Jewish faith. IN fact, they are not in the 'Law of Return' for Israel either.. and will not find a Orthodox, conservative, Reform, REconstructionist, Humanistic, Karsite that will agree they are of the Jewish faith.
 
Elvira said:
Well, let's face it...how trustworthy can Jewish sites be? They did get it wrong about the Messiah after all...
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No not all Jews, Yeshua's disciples were Jews, the Apostles were Jews. The Day of Pentecost thousands of Jews from all over the known world became Christians. The first Church fathers were Jews. And they spread the Gospel at great peril. There has always been a remnant of Jews who have been believers from the very beginning. And look what a wonderful job they did because look at how many believers there are today!
 
vesper said:
No not all Jews, Yeshua's disciples were Jews, the Apostles were Jews. The Day of Pentecost thousands of Jews from all over the known world became Christians. The first Church fathers were Jews. And they spread the Gospel at great peril. There has always been a remnant of Jews who have been believers from the very beginning. And look what a wonderful job they did because look at how many believers there are today!
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I was referring to the Jews Ramoss is speaking of...he thinks only they can understand Scripture...he is wrong, as he is about most things...
 
Elvira said:
I was referring to the Jews Ramoss is speaking of...he thinks only they can understand Scripture...he is wrong, as he is about most things...
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I see. So you can tell Jewish people all about their own scripture, and how they have been getting wrong for 3500 years. I see.
 
RAMOSS said:
That still does not change the fact they are not of the Jewish faith. IN fact, they are not in the 'Law of Return' for Israel either.. and will not find a Orthodox, conservative, Reform, REconstructionist, Humanistic, Karsite that will agree they are of the Jewish faith.
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Ramoss, they are Jews by birth weren't you just talking about the importance of the "bloodline"? and they have accepted Yeshua as their Messiah and their numbers are growing. Have you ever attended a Messianic service Ramoss? Their Rabbis are on fire for the LORD. It is as if they have been anointed in a special way by G-d. You ought to venture out sometime and check out one of their services.
 
vesper said:
Ramoss, they are Jews by birth weren't you just talking about the importance of the "bloodline"? and they have accepted Yeshua as their Messiah and their numbers are growing. Have you ever attended a Messianic service Ramoss? Their Rabbis are on fire for the LORD. It is as if they have been anointed in a special way by G-d. You ought to venture out sometime and check out one of their services.
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As a matter of fact, a very large number of them weren't. Even if they were , they gave up their Jewish faith. If you look at the J4J's statement of faith, it basically reads like the Baptists do. That is in direct contradiction to everything the Jewish faith stands for.
 
RAMOSS said:
As a matter of fact, a very large number of them weren't. Even if they were , they gave up their Jewish faith. If you look at the J4J's statement of faith, it basically reads like the Baptists do. That is in direct contradiction to everything the Jewish faith stands for.
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Their Jewish traditions/ ways are still honored but in a way where Yeshua fulfilled the LAW.
Every Jewish believer I know still keeps G-d's laws down to the dietary laws. I doubt many Jews today even keep the dietary laws. They celebrate Passover in the tradition but now it all has new meaning to them.
They still honor Hanukkah and all its traditions as Yeshua did.

Like I stated earlier, you need to go visit one of their services, you obviously haven't and until you do first hand you really are not in a position to make such claims.
 
vesper said:
Their Jewish traditions/ ways are still honored but in a way where Yeshua fulfilled the LAW.
Every Jewish believer I know still keeps G-d's laws down to the dietary laws. I doubt many Jews today even keep the dietary laws. They celebrate Passover in the tradition but now it all has new meaning to them.
They still honor Hanukkah and all its traditions as Yeshua did.

Like I stated earlier, you need to go visit one of their services, you obviously haven't and until you do first hand you really are not in a position to make such claims.
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They use the New Testament, and their concept of what a Messiah is is contradictory to the Jewish faith. They have every right to believe what they want, however, all the various forms of mainstream Judaism rejects them as being of the Jewish faith. Between that, and the fact the vast majority of the J4J's have a baptist background, not a Jewish background makes them as a source about Judaism to be null and void.
 
RAMOSS said:
They use the New Testament, and their concept of what a Messiah is is contradictory to the Jewish faith. They have every right to believe what they want, however, all the various forms of mainstream Judaism rejects them as being of the Jewish faith. Between that, and the fact the vast majority of the J4J's have a baptist background, not a Jewish background makes them as a source about Judaism to be null and void.
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Whatever Ramoss,..... have a good evening. I pray the LORD puts in your path someone special.
 
This thread has extended my Bible Study. As the 5 women listed in Matthew's genealogy of Yeshua, is an eye popper. The lineage through King David had interesting women. Tamar who engaged in incest to produce an heir, to Rahab the prostitute and no Jewish blood, to Ruth a Moabite with no Jewish blood to Bathsheba which Matthew couldn't even mention her name but instead stated the wife of Uriah the Hittite that King David sent out to die because he lusted over his wife. But other than that Bathsheba was not a Jew. Yet this is the bloodline for the Kings. I think Matthew had a divine message in his genealogy.
 
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