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128shot said:just to re-inforce the point.
Career development is cruicial between these years. 25-30.
Guess when most people have kids?
between 19-30.
Red State Sage said:I think you all have hit the nail on the head as a great reason for poor people being in the financial situation they are. Having children out of wedlock, or at a ridiculously young age automatically puts you behind the 8-ball in life. I'll quote myself:
The poor are so because they make poor decisions.
In America we bend over backwards trying to help the indigent. We've got more social welfare programs than any of us care to elaborate about. They've got job training and educational opportunities just waiting for them to enroll in and better themselves. How many of you have heard the radio commercials advertising some welfare programs and the ways for people to sign up? Yeah, really, our government is running commercials (also costing tax payer dollars) begging people to enroll in programs.ngdawg said:Sometimes the poor stay poor because they give up too easy. Yes, that's a bad decision as well, but if no one shows them how to make some right ones, how do they learn to? It's a cycle.....and as things get more and more expensive, it's grows more ominous and hopeless.
Heidi Fleiss?...:2wave:ngdawg said:I worked for a private family business, nationally known and had been around for over 100 years.
Old and wise said:Being rich is a matter of posessing intelligence and ambition and applying it well.
Being poor is a matter of lack of intelligence and ambition which is a perfect recipe for staying poor.
TurtleDude said:Is this because most blacks, hispanics, and native americans are stupid and lazy? No, it reveals a deeper complicated social problem.
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It mostly involves cultural pathologies. Its amazing how many Jews came to this country after surviving the holocaust-no money, many had no education, they couldn't speak English and lo and behold, a generation or two later, their children are attending top universities, law schools and medical schools way beyond their percentages in society.
BOat people came here 30 or so years ago with nothing, the reminders of an unpopular and unsuccessful war and they manage to turn out several rhodes scholars: I believe all three military academies have had a boat person or a boat person's kid as valedictorian-something blacks have never done.
Look at any magazine article about spelling bee, geography or math competitions-3/4 of the kids are Indian or Chinese.
on the other hand, black kids who try to achieve academically are ridiculed as being white. I represented a school district in a mixed area-all middle to upper middle class. Black kids had a 5X disciplinary rate over white kids and the head of the school and several high ranking administrators were black so it wasn't like white teachers or leaders treating black kids badly
HTColeman said:I don't recall reading about 200 years of slavery and then 200 hundred following years of oppression in the Jews history in America. The two minorities history are so completely different that you cannot compare the two. Two minorities have a history of being enslaved from the start of America, Native Americans and African Americans, and both are still disadvantaged today, but this is not about race, people aren't poor because they are black or indian or minority. People are poor because of a variety of reasons and you can't stereotype them all as stupid and lazy.
HTColeman said:I don't recall reading about 200 years of slavery and then 200 hundred following years of oppression in the Jews history in America. The two minorities history are so completely different that you cannot compare the two. Two minorities have a history of being enslaved from the start of America, Native Americans and African Americans, and both are still disadvantaged today, but this is not about race, people aren't poor because they are black or indian or minority. People are poor because of a variety of reasons and you can't stereotype them all as stupid and lazy.
TurtleDude said:I didn't-I noted that there are cultural pathologies that weigh against academic achievement.
We had a law clerk a few years ago. She was as black as they come but she was raised by a white family who adopted several kids of different ethnicities so she had two white brothers, a korean sister and a hispanic brother and sister
funny thing is she made top grades at a very good local lawschool (she decided to stay near home rather than pay the big bucks to go to one of the top ten schools she was accepted at) made the law review (a first for a black) and clerked for a district judge.
her hispanic siblings did as well
she used to tell me she was so happy she was raised in a white family where no one would ridicule her for getting good grades except for a few blacks at her HS. I met her white and hispanic brothers-I don't think she got too much grief because they were seriously big dudes who all were star football players
as to the Jews-try talking about almost 10 times the persecution blacks endured.
persecution of the jews seemed to make them tougher and smarter-wonder why that didn't happen with the blacks.
Very true. There is a good discussion of that in this column, Black rednecks and white liberals from last May. When the cultural baggage is left behind, poverty is also.TurtleDude said:I noted that there are cultural pathologies that weigh against academic achievement.
Diogenes said:Very true. There is a good discussion of that in this column, Black rednecks and white liberals from last May. When the cultural baggage is left behind, poverty is also.
128shot said:Is it just money that seperates those who are rich and those who are poor?
I don't think so, I think being rich is a state of mind, and you reaping those kindly profits is nothing but a sort of side effect, knowledge is power, they, and you must work to obtain this knowledge and take many a risk to do so.
On the flip side, I also think being poor is a bit of a state of mind, I mean if you just look at the general finachial habits between the both, you'll notice that the poor purchases more liabilitys and the rich tend to purchase potentially profitable or profitable things, at least at up start. After that its all splurge money.
Knowledge is the real gap between the rich and the poor is my point here, and thats an easy fix.
please note: This is of course a generalization I came through by looking around my own neighbor and talking to an assorted array of people, and I just naturally applied it to everything, and I think it holds mighty merit...
galenrox said:Dude, why do you even talk?
Some liberals are socialists, some are capitalists. For example, I am a liberal, yet I subscribe a school of economic thought slightly to the left of the Chicago school.
Get this into your head: WHAT YOU THINK OF LIBERALS IS STEREOTYPES, YOU KNOW NOTHING OF ACTUAL LIBERALISM
Oh, but you liberals have us conservatives completely figured out...:roflgalenrox said:Get this into your head: WHAT YOU THINK OF LIBERALS IS STEREOTYPES, YOU KNOW NOTHING OF ACTUAL LIBERALISM
Being rich is a matter of posessing intelligence and ambition and applying it well.
Being poor is a matter of lack of intelligence and ambition which is a perfect recipe for staying poor.
Agreed that the regional differences are less important now than they were before the great industrial migrations following WWII, but the essential point of the article is a counterproductive culture which encourages and reinforces poor choices.HTColeman said:Once again, that is too simple a definition of the cause of poverty, culture. If the above column is correct, then it would mean that southern culture is the cause of poverty. But there is just as much poverty in the north as the south, also much of the percieved cultural differences btwn the north and south are imagined. Other than a different accent, there isn't much difference in the people in the North or South.
Agreed, but I would go further and suggest that a large gap between rich and poor can be a good thing. My reason is that every young adult just entering the workforce is poor (spoiled rich kids like Paris Hilton are exceptions, but are a tiny minority), and a large gap gives them a goal to work toward. My parents, for instance, started married life with five college degrees between them in 1938, but they still slept on a bare mattress under an overcoat until they could afford furniture; twenty years later, they lived quite comfortably. Both I and my children have had similar experiences, and I expect that my grandchildren will also. The important thing is that everybody should have the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and reap the rewards or the consequences for their personal decisions.Stu Ghatze said:You made some good points., but personnally I do not think it should matter how BIG the gulf is between the rich & poor, as ALL & any can CHOOSE their own lifestyle. Some lust for nothing but money, & others just lust to get by, & some are lazy, & some are workaholics!
True, but they do not always go together, and none of the three things you mention necessarily translate into success. A free market rewards contribution, and there are many ways to contribute. (There are a number of highly rewarded people whose contribution is zero or negative in my estimation - Wacko Jacko and Madonna, for instance - but that's just my personal prejudice, and it's not my decision to make.)Technocratic_Utilitarian said:Immorality and ruthless ambition do not translate into intelligence.
Diogenes said:Agreed that the regional differences are less important now than they were before the great industrial migrations following WWII, but the essential point of the article is a counterproductive culture which encourages and reinforces poor choices.
Agreed, but I would go further and suggest that a large gap between rich and poor can be a good thing. My reason is that every young adult just entering the workforce is poor (spoiled rich kids like Paris Hilton are exceptions, but are a tiny minority), and a large gap gives them a goal to work toward. My parents, for instance, started married life with five college degrees between them in 1938, but they still slept on a bare mattress under an overcoat until they could afford furniture; twenty years later, they lived quite comfortably. Both I and my children have had similar experiences, and I expect that my grandchildren will also. The important thing is that everybody should have the opportunity to pursue their dreams, and reap the rewards or the consequences for their personal decisions.
HTColeman said:I see the point, i.e. much of rap music etc. But I do not think that could be identified as a cause of the gap between the rich and poor but rather a result.
Okay, here is what I am saying. I think we can all agree that due to social circumstances it is much harder to traverse this large gap between rich and poor. Sometimes a little harder, sometimes drastically harder. Let's take Tim and Bob. Tim comes from a middle class average family. His parents can afford college, tutors, SAT classes, private schools, etc. Bob lives in the middle of Detroit with his single mom. He can't afford the above and has to rely on himself to get through school and pay for college. If being successful is the goal, Tim does not have to be anywhere near as intelligent or ambitious as Bob in order to reach success. If Tim and Bob both have the same amount of intelligence/ambition, and Tim reaches success, it does not mean he made better choices or anything, he was simply closer to the goal.
I am not saying that this is every case, but there are just as many people, if not more, who are in Bob's position as opposed to simply being lazy.
I guess we'll continue to disagree on this point.HTColeman said:I see the point, i.e. much of rap music etc. But I do not think that could be identified as a cause of the gap between the rich and poor but rather a result.
I see your point, and I agree that some people must work harder, sometimes much harder, than others to achieve success (however the individual chooses to define it). As Mark Twain caustically remarked, the key to success in life is to choose your ancestors with care. In reality each of us is born with a unique combination of handicaps and talents, and it is up to us as individuals to evaluate them and make the best of them. For those who reject victimization and are willing to work toward their dreams, a large gap between rich and poor only means there is no limit to what they can hope to achieve.Okay, here is what I am saying. I think we can all agree that due to social circumstances it is much harder to traverse this large gap between rich and poor. Sometimes a little harder, sometimes drastically harder. Let's take Tim and Bob. Tim comes from a middle class average family. His parents can afford college, tutors, SAT classes, private schools, etc. Bob lives in the middle of Detroit with his single mom. He can't afford the above and has to rely on himself to get through school and pay for college. If being successful is the goal, Tim does not have to be anywhere near as intelligent or ambitious as Bob in order to reach success. If Tim and Bob both have the same amount of intelligence/ambition, and Tim reaches success, it does not mean he made better choices or anything, he was simply closer to the goal.
128shot said:Seems like an excuse to me.
What is education?
Please, define how sitting in school means you're "learning" something?
Librarys are the ultimate answer here.
Diogenes said:I guess we'll continue to disagree on this point.
I see your point, and I agree that some people must work harder, sometimes much harder, than others to achieve success (however the individual chooses to define it). As Mark Twain caustically remarked, the key to success in life is to choose your ancestors with care. In reality each of us is born with a unique combination of handicaps and talents, and it is up to us as individuals to evaluate them and make the best of them. For those who reject victimization and are willing to work toward their dreams, a large gap between rich and poor only means there is no limit to what they can hope to achieve.
In 1962, Time magazine ran a picture of President Kennedy at a baseball game in San Francisco and provided a quick biography of his host: born in southwestern Russia in 1906, drafted into the Czarist army at the age of 11 (!), the Czarist government quickly collapsed, Lenin took over and cut a deal with the Germans to cede a third of the country to them. The kid's home was on the other side of the line, and he decided not to go home. He hitchhiked 5000 miles down the Trans-Siberian Railway to Vladivostok, survived on odd jobs for couple of months, and got a job as cabin boy on an American ship bound for the west coast. He arrived in San Francisco, 13 years old, no friends, no family, and knowing just as much English as he could pick up in three months on the ship. 43 yeas later he was a multi-millionaire real estate developer with his picture in a national magazine beside his good friend the president of the US.
Granted that the story is anecdotal, but it is symbolic of the fact that our society places no barriers in the way of someone who is driven to succeed; we don't care who your parents were, we only care about who you are. A free market society rewards contribution, and it is the responsibility of each individual to find a way to contribute. About 80% of our millionaires are self-made, and they are the most generous people on earth when it comes to helping others climb the ladder.
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