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The future of Israel

GreatNews2night

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About the Israeli-Arab conflict: I refuse to take any sides. The situation is complex enough and passions are deep enough that no side can ever be justifiably picked by a neutral person.

What I'll say is merely a prediction. It doesn't mean at all that I find the outcome desirable in any way, shape or form. It's just what I *think* will happen.

I believe that the conflict will go on and on for the foreseeable future, and then will suddenly end with the thorough destruction of the state of Israel in a nuclear apocalypse.

There are in my opinion only three factors that have so far preserved the existence of the state of Israel, which is a small state surrounded by an overwhelming sea of enemies.

1. Huge technological gap between Israel and its enemies, with Israel possessing vastly superior armed forces and being armed with nukes
2. The fact that some of the Israeli sites are very important religious/sacred sites for all three major monotheistic religions therefore enemies would hesitate in destroying them
3. The International support for Israel

Now, why will Israel ultimately be destroyed, in my opinion?

1. The technological gap will progressively decrease then will be eliminated once rogue groups gain access to nuclear technology. Nukes provided that there are means to deliver them, effectively neutralize any conventional army superiority. Rogue groups don't operate under the same deterrence parameters that bona fide states use. So, it's not likely that the Iranians would attempt a nuclear attack on Israel since they don't want to be annihilated back and those ayatollahs are bent on regime survival, but rogue terrorist groups don't think like that. They will eventually acquire nukes and even the delivery means, and will spring to action. This action will fail at first but will eventually succeed.
2. The sacred sites - this part of the deterrence won't last forever as people radicalize more and more and hatred goes deeper and deeper, so that destructing Israel becomes more important than the preservation of the sacred sites
3. International support will count for nothing when suicidal extremists start carrying on the nuclear attacks; also, international support is linked to oil (which Israel itself doesn't have but the whole region does; so it's not interesting for other countries to see this region destabilized), which will become progressively less important as major countries become less dependent on Middle East oil. And also, support is linked to the influence of the Jewish community over the international financial system. However the financial geopolitics are changing (such as the recent creation of the BRICS' bank) and again, there will be less and less reason for other countries to support Israel.

So, it's just a question of time. Eventually Israel will be a vitrified desert. Maybe it will take a long time and some failed attempts (including because delivery means are not so easy to get by anything less structured than a major bona fide state, and can be defended against, or the potential attackers can be preemptively attacked - but at some point, it will happen, as the technology gets more and more sophisticated, smaller, and more portable, and also more and more widespread and accessible.

Once the Middle East becomes a contaminated nuclear wasteland, the conflict will then cease, for lack of combatants.

I don't think Israel will survive the end of the 21st century. A final, devastating, and successful attack on Israel will happen at some point in the next 85 years. They are just too tiny, and have very committed enemies that surround them by all sides (well, some are allies but it's just a convenient arrangement - the depth of these alliances is very shallow and unstable).

Faced with this reality Israel's best strategy would be to engage very energetically in an effort for peace, including the willingness to cede huge concessions to the Palestinians and other Arabs - anything would be better than certain destruction.

However, Israelis are not likely to see it like this. They will be in denial and will continue to trust their ability to prevail, so, the conflict will continue, until its sad end that I'm predicting.

--------

Confessedly, I'm no Middle East expert (and I'm no expert on small portable nuclear devices either). Maybe what I said above is total rubbish.

If it is, please enlighten me and tell me where and why I got it wrong.
 
I dont think so.

Sooner or later they will understand that Israel is here to stay and that it isnt going nowhere.

Israel has been confronted by Arab monarchies, Arab socialism, Arab nationalism and now with arab islamic fundermentalism.

All of which came and went (will go) and look who is still here!

And Israel will prevail because the rest of the world agrees that the jews can only be 100% safe, as long as they have their own country.
 
I dont think so.

Sooner or later they will understand that Israel is here to stay and that it isnt going nowhere.

Israel has been confronted by Arab monarchies, Arab socialism, Arab nationalism and now with arab islamic fundermentalism.

All of which came and went (will go) and look who is still here!

And Israel will prevail because the rest of the world agrees that the jews can only be 100% safe, as long as they have their own country.

OK, hopefully so, but what will happen when rogue jihadist groups get access to nuclear technology, which is my entire point?
 
OK, hopefully so, but what will happen when rogue jihadist groups get access to nuclear technology, which is my entire point?

That will never happen.

I guarantee that if any terror group, be it jihadi or whatever, ever detonates a nuclear weapon or any other weapon of mass destruction anywhere. The entire world will stop, forget about it`s differences and eradictae these people.



I think the future of Israel will be very different. The Palestinians will lose all their lands and flee into the rest of the Arab world. And they will have nobody else to blame but themselves and their violent and uncivilised behavior.
 
That will never happen.

I guarantee that if any terror group, be it jihadi or whatever, ever detonates a nuclear weapon or any other weapon of mass destruction anywhere. The entire world will stop, forget about it`s differences and eradictae these people.

That's a very optimistic statement. I can't see the entire world getting together and taking united action against anything. Countries as closely aligned as the United States and the United Kingdom can't even get together about Ukraine. Inside one single country, people can't get together either - like in the United States any attempt to accomplish anything, to do or not do anything, has half the population and half the politicians for it, and the other half against it.

And then, even if countries did get together and annihilated the extremists, maybe it would be too late. Israel is a tiny state. A potent nuclear bomb going off in the center of Tel Aviv could contaminate the entire region for 100 years and permanently cripple Israel to a point of no return. So, even though the extremist jihadists got annihilated, maybe they'd have done their damage already.
 
If Israel were nuked the world community would immediately get together in the UN and condemn the Jews for spreading radiation on purpose to commit genocide of the Palestinians.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Moved to "Israel/Palestine/Hamas political debate and discussion specific to the current military activity" sub-forum.
 
About the Israeli-Arab conflict: I refuse to take any sides. The situation is complex enough and passions are deep enough that no side can ever be justifiably picked by a neutral person.

What I'll say is merely a prediction. It doesn't mean at all that I find the outcome desirable in any way, shape or form. It's just what I *think* will happen.

I believe that the conflict will go on and on for the foreseeable future, and then will suddenly end with the thorough destruction of the state of Israel in a nuclear apocalypse.

There are in my opinion only three factors that have so far preserved the existence of the state of Israel, which is a small state surrounded by an overwhelming sea of enemies.

1. Huge technological gap between Israel and its enemies, with Israel possessing vastly superior armed forces and being armed with nukes
2. The fact that some of the Israeli sites are very important religious/sacred sites for all three major monotheistic religions therefore enemies would hesitate in destroying them
3. The International support for Israel

Now, why will Israel ultimately be destroyed, in my opinion?

1. The technological gap will progressively decrease then will be eliminated once rogue groups gain access to nuclear technology. Nukes provided that there are means to deliver them, effectively neutralize any conventional army superiority. Rogue groups don't operate under the same deterrence parameters that bona fide states use. So, it's not likely that the Iranians would attempt a nuclear attack on Israel since they don't want to be annihilated back and those ayatollahs are bent on regime survival, but rogue terrorist groups don't think like that. They will eventually acquire nukes and even the delivery means, and will spring to action. This action will fail at first but will eventually succeed.
2. The sacred sites - this part of the deterrence won't last forever as people radicalize more and more and hatred goes deeper and deeper, so that destructing Israel becomes more important than the preservation of the sacred sites
3. International support will count for nothing when suicidal extremists start carrying on the nuclear attacks; also, international support is linked to oil (which Israel itself doesn't have but the whole region does; so it's not interesting for other countries to see this region destabilized), which will become progressively less important as major countries become less dependent on Middle East oil. And also, support is linked to the influence of the Jewish community over the international financial system. However the financial geopolitics are changing (such as the recent creation of the BRICS' bank) and again, there will be less and less reason for other countries to support Israel.

So, it's just a question of time. Eventually Israel will be a vitrified desert. Maybe it will take a long time and some failed attempts (including because delivery means are not so easy to get by anything less structured than a major bona fide state, and can be defended against, or the potential attackers can be preemptively attacked - but at some point, it will happen, as the technology gets more and more sophisticated, smaller, and more portable, and also more and more widespread and accessible.

Once the Middle East becomes a contaminated nuclear wasteland, the conflict will then cease, for lack of combatants.

I don't think Israel will survive the end of the 21st century. A final, devastating, and successful attack on Israel will happen at some point in the next 85 years. They are just too tiny, and have very committed enemies that surround them by all sides (well, some are allies but it's just a convenient arrangement - the depth of these alliances is very shallow and unstable).

Faced with this reality Israel's best strategy would be to engage very energetically in an effort for peace, including the willingness to cede huge concessions to the Palestinians and other Arabs - anything would be better than certain destruction.

However, Israelis are not likely to see it like this. They will be in denial and will continue to trust their ability to prevail, so, the conflict will continue, until its sad end that I'm predicting.

--------

Confessedly, I'm no Middle East expert (and I'm no expert on small portable nuclear devices either). Maybe what I said above is total rubbish.

If it is, please enlighten me and tell me where and why I got it wrong.

You got the bolded part right.

Israel has worked hard for peace and has achieved it with some of its neighbors. What really has to happen is that we as a world have to find a way to end terrorism. There are plenty of people in Israel who would love to see the territories changed, be more open and the two-state solution become a reality. There are those who feel that Jerusalem could even be on the table. You know what changes that attitude? The constant bombardment of rockets and the kidnapping and killing of Israeli citizens. It is interesting to me that people blame Israel for the situation and their only crime is existence.
 
OK, hopefully so, but what will happen when rogue jihadist groups get access to nuclear technology, which is my entire point?

Nope, U.S cyber warfare groups set Iran way far back in the nuclear development process, if any Arab nation ever tried and successfully developed nukes the West would immediately without hesitation eliminate the ME and wipe it off the map.
 
You got the bolded part right.

Given that many points similar to mine were made by this New York University professor who does specialize in the Middle East (see the link I posted above, later down in the thread from my OP), then maybe I'm not that far off.
 
Nope, U.S cyber warfare groups set Iran way far back in the nuclear development process, if any Arab nation ever tried and successfully developed nukes the West would immediately without hesitation eliminate the ME and wipe it off the map.

I didn't say Arab nations. I said rogue groups, as in terrorist jihadist groups, which are not as easy to eradicate by carpet bombing or nuking them to wipe them out as you seem to propose. Also, I don't think "the West" would do anything so decisive while speaking of one voice - just look at the inability to find a common voice to address Russia. The West is very divided right now, and the Middle East is still important for oil so I profoundly doubt this concerted effort you are predicting.
 
I didn't say Arab nations. I said rogue groups, as in terrorist jihadist groups, which are not as easy to eradicate by carpet bombing or nuking them to wipe them out as you seem to propose. Also, I don't think "the West" would do anything so decisive while speaking of one voice - just look at the inability to find a common voice to address Russia. The West is very divided right now, and the Middle East is still important for oil so I profoundly doubt this concerted effort you are predicting.

The west equivocates rogue groups with Arab nations, you should know this by now.

Errr, whether we admit it or not I'd easily say that the west is much more biased towards Muslims than Russians (not to mention Russia has had nukes for a while now and we never did anything to them yet when Iran tries developing something the UN cracks down like a motha****ah on it) and would have no problem nuking the **** out of the ME should Israel be harmed in such a terrible way.

Maybe the countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar (the more civilized places) will be spared.
 
Given that many points similar to mine were made by this New York University professor who does specialize in the Middle East (see the link I posted above, later down in the thread from my OP), then maybe I'm not that far off.

No one is infallible.
 
The west equivocates rogue groups with Arab nations, you should know this by now.

Errr, whether we admit it or not I'd easily say that the west is much more biased towards Muslims than Russians (not to mention Russia has had nukes for a while now and we never did anything to them yet when Iran tries developing something the UN cracks down like a motha****ah on it) and would have no problem nuking the **** out of the ME should Israel be harmed in such a terrible way.

Maybe the countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar (the more civilized places) will be spared.

1. We didn't do anything against Russia because we can't. They are equally capable of blowing us to pieces, taking the whole world down in the process.

2. I hope you realize that in a nuclear attack there is no such thing as sparing Saudi Arabia and the Emirates, because radioactive clouds don't respect man-made artificial boundaries over no natural obstacles. It's a big flat desert over there, and nuclear contamination would spread in all directions.
 
1. We didn't do anything against Russia because we can't. They are equally capable of blowing us to pieces, taking the whole world down in the process.

2. I hope you realize that in a nuclear attack there is no such thing as sparing Saudi Arabia and the Emirates, because radioactive clouds don't respect man-made artificial boundaries over no natural obstacles. It's a big flat desert over there, and nuclear contamination would spread in all directions.

Russia is, but not the ME, all the more reason to **** em up.

The world better hope that the U.S. and Europe's integrated missile defense system doesn't become extremely effective, because then Russia will be nothing but an ass to laugh at, along with many other countries.
 
The world better hope that the U.S. and Europe's integrated missile defense system doesn't become extremely effective, because then Russia will be nothing but an ass to laugh at, along with many other countries.

It's not that simple. Russia has nuclear-armed submarines, bombers, and carriers. Just missile defense wouldn't stop Russia from blowing up many American cities.
 
It's not that simple. Russia has nuclear-armed submarines, bombers, and carriers. Just missile defense wouldn't stop Russia from blowing up many American cities.

All of their nuclear missiles become useless, any long ranged missile systems become useless, and meanwhile we have all of our long-range missiles and nuclear missiles ready to blow **** up.

Nuke subs go under nuke missiles which become useless due to the missile defense system (which can target the nukes while they're way up in the sky)
.

They have bombers we have fighters, better fighters, and the ability to buy buy buy more of em.

We also have carriers, more I'd imagine.

EDIT

BACK ON TOPIC

The ME is nowhere near as strong as Russia, so once again, if a single nuclear development happens anywhere in the ME, the West will become alert and probably make a fuss, if said nuclear developments are then used to attack Israel, the West will wipe ME off the map without a single care in the world.
 
All of their nuclear missiles become useless, any long ranged missile systems become useless, and meanwhile we have all of our long-range missiles and nuclear missiles ready to blow **** up.

Nuke subs go under nuke missiles which become useless due to the missile defense system (which can target the nukes while they're way up in the sky)
.

They have bombers we have fighters, better fighters, and the ability to buy buy buy more of em.

We also have carriers, more I'd imagine.

EDIT

BACK ON TOPIC

The ME is nowhere near as strong as Russia, so once again, if a single nuclear development happens anywhere in the ME, the West will become alert and probably make a fuss, if said nuclear developments are then used to attack Israel, the West will wipe ME off the map without a single care in the world.

I don't know, man. The Russian army is actually modernizing again, and fast. All this missile defense idea... it's sufficient for some nukes to sneak by and all hell breaks lose. Would you want to see a radioactive hole in the place of NYC, Washington DC, Chicago, and LA?

Let's not engage in nuclear WWIII, OK?
 
I don't know, man. The Russian army is actually modernizing again, and fast. All this missile defense idea... it's sufficient for some nukes to sneak by and all hell breaks lose. Would you want to see a radioactive hole in the place of NYC, Washington DC, Chicago, and LA?

Let's not engage in nuclear WWIII, OK?

"some nukes to sneak by"

How exactly does this happen?

BACK ON TOPIC

I guess I have to repeat myself since you aren't opening your eyes.

The ME is nowhere near as strong as Russia, so once again, if a single nuclear development happens anywhere in the ME, the West will become alert and probably make a fuss, if said nuclear developments are then used to attack Israel, the West will wipe ME off the map without a single care in the world.
 
Nope, U.S cyber warfare groups set Iran way far back in the nuclear development process, if any Arab nation ever tried and successfully developed nukes the West would immediately without hesitation eliminate the ME and wipe it off the map.
pakistan says you are very wrong
 
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