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The folly of calls for (Constitutional) direct taxation

Would you support any form of Constitutional Direct Taxation (as defined in the OP)?

  • Yes, wealth only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, real property only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, personal property only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, wealth/real

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, wealth/personal

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, real/personal

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, wealth/real/personal

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3

Safiel

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Before I start, I must define terms.

Direct taxation vs indirect taxation has a somewhat different meaning in the financial world, generally breaking down as taxes that can be shifted to others versus taxes that cannot be shifted to others.

But I speak of the different, Constitutional, terms.

A direct tax under the Constitution is just that, a tax levied against person or property and exists in only four forms:

1. Capitation: A tax directly and equally on every individual, perhaps $1 per head, perhaps $10 per head, perhaps much more per head.

2. Wealth: A tax levied as a universal percentage of every persons liquid wealth, perhaps 1%, perhaps much more. There is NO progression, so the hobo on the street with $10 to his name would pay the same percentage as would Elon Musk.

3: Real estate: A set percentage would be levied on all real estate in the country. Unlike State property taxes, there would be NO homestead or other exemptions and no limitations on assessments.

4. Personal property: Could take any number of forms, but again would be uniform with no exemptions or limitations.

Capitation would always be the same in every state, but rates would vary between States on the other three types, due to the apportionment requirement.

An indirect tax under the Constitution is literally everything else, encompassing every type of taxation in existence. Indirect means that a tax is targeted at the point of exchange, not directly, of which a few examples of the endless number available are:

1. Exchange of time/labor for wages, salary, etc.

2. Exchange of money for goods and services.

3. Interest, dividends and capital gains earned and paid on investments.

4. Rent deriving from real or personal property.

But this discussion pertains ONLY to direct taxation as I have defined it above.

Currently, no direct taxation exists in the United States. The last direct tax was enacted in 1861 and repealed in 1872.

The biggest obstacle to direct taxation would be the Constitutional apportionment requirement, which rendered the 1861 tax ineffective and resulted in another Revenue Bill in 1862 which relied more on indirect taxation. The difficulty of apportionment was a major reason for the final repeal in 1872 of direct taxation.

It was difficult enough in 1861. In 2025, it would be all but impossible to levy an apportioned direct tax. States with large numbers of undocumented immigrants on its census population count are going to draw a higher apportionment percentage. That would lead to endless bickering and lawsuits. Poorer States are going to bear the same per capita tax load as richer States, meaning poorer States are going to be much more negatively impacted. California and New York have much higher wealth per person than Mississippi, but the per capita burden would be the same on all States.

A capitation tax is severely regressive and not likely to be levied.

A wealth tax is neither progressive nor regressive and would likely be used to some extent in direct taxation.

A real property (estate) tax is somewhat progressive.

A personal property tax would be the only form that could be made truly progressive, by targeting specific forms of property for taxation, such as boats and RV's or other such personal property more likely to be owned by wealthier persons.

Unfortunately, to satisfy a direct tax levy, likely a combination of wealth, real and personal taxation would be needed, limiting progressivity.

The bottom line is that a direct tax would be extremely difficult to levy, would be subject to intense litigation, would unduly burden poorer States and would fall more heavily on the poorer in society than our current system of taxation.

So I oppose any scheme that would attempt to invoke Federal direct taxation. Instead, I would support thoughtful measures for change to our current Federal system of indirect taxation.

I would also note that the apportionment requirement was included as a protection for slavery. The South knew that the Federal Government could end slavery by enacting a large direct tax on slaves and land. Much more land and nearly all slaves were in the South, making it all but impossible to apportion such a tax, so the apportionment requirement was introduced.

The apportionment requirement simply makes direct taxation both difficult to enact and enforce and economically destructive for poorer States.

I deliberately omitted capitation tax from the poll as simply too ridiculously regressive to be considered.

Short of amending the Constitution to entirely remove the apportionment requirement for direct taxation, direct taxation is simply not a practical idea. Even removing apportionment, it presents no advantage to existing indirect taxation.
 
I put this OP forward simply as a refutation of direct taxation as advocated by a different user. Just prefer to fork this content to its own thread, rather than potentially taking an existing thread off topic.
 
No, but curious to know if I am the one who you refer to in your post #2?
I prefer a progressive income tax on the gross income of each individual, with no deductions or adjustments applied to income.
While I'm not 100% pleased with what I've presented as a start, it can at least be put on a spreadsheet and examined, and it is extremely simple.
 
No, but curious to know if I am the one who you refer to in your post #2?
I prefer a progressive income tax on the gross income of each individual, with no deductions or adjustments applied to income.
While I'm not 100% pleased with what I've presented as a start, it can at least be put on a spreadsheet and examined, and it is extremely simple.

Nope, not you.

😄

Income taxes are in the realm of indirect taxation.
 
No, but curious to know if I am the one who you refer to in your post #2?
I prefer a progressive income tax on the gross income of each individual, with no deductions or adjustments applied to income.
While I'm not 100% pleased with what I've presented as a start, it can at least be put on a spreadsheet and examined, and it is extremely simple.

Nope, not you.

😄

Income taxes are in the realm of indirect taxation, which I support.
 
Nope, not you.

😄

Income taxes are in the realm of indirect taxation, which I support.
Are you aware of the individual income tax code change I've been suggesting?
 
Indirect only. I don't think low-income households or states should be impacted disproportionately. If anything, the wealthier side should carry more of the burden.
 
I don't think so.
It's based on increments of the GNI per person, with those earning no more than the GNI per person paying a flat tax of 15%, and increasing as the income multiple increases. Each individual with a gross income of more than 1/4 the minimum wage would be required to file a return, and I would eliminate the FICA tax to begin with making Social Security and Medicare simply funded by the income tax, which would begin with a rate more or less the same as the current FICA rate which would be paid by about 70% of taxpayers, currently earning no more than about $80,000 per year in gross income. The tax tables would change algorithmically as the GNI per person changes. A surcharge would be applied to the tax in bad times, and the bottom 70% would have their tax reduced by a fractional surtax when revenue collected exceeded budget needs, and/or a portion would be used to reduce the debt owed.
 
I prefer a progressive income tax on the gross income of each individual, with no deductions or adjustments applied to income.
According to the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO

Here are the 10 measures the proletariat will use to bring about the full realization of the communist utopian dream, once they have the political power:

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

 
According to the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO

Here are the 10 measures the proletariat will use to bring about the full realization of the communist utopian dream, once they have the political power:

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

That's an awesome highlight, but I suspect you are missing the history around it given the simplicity of what you presented. Can you tell the class how Marx and Engels would actually have answered the question posed in this thread?
 
According to the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO

Here are the 10 measures the proletariat will use to bring about the full realization of the communist utopian dream, once they have the political power:

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

And the alternative is?
 
According to the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO

Here are the 10 measures the proletariat will use to bring about the full realization of the communist utopian dream, once they have the political power:

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.


We have had income taxes for pretty much all citizens since 1942 and Communism has not taken wrong.

Karl Marx was clearly wrong in that prediction, a graduated income tax has NOT lead to Communism.

But I digress.

This thread is primarily to discuss the folly of Constitutional DIRECT taxes.

Income taxes are indirect taxes under the Constitution.
 
Before I start, I must define terms.

Direct taxation vs indirect taxation has a somewhat different meaning in the financial world, generally breaking down as taxes that can be shifted to others versus taxes that cannot be shifted to others.

But I speak of the different, Constitutional, terms.

A direct tax under the Constitution is just that, a tax levied against person or property and exists in only four forms:

1. Capitation: A tax directly and equally on every individual, perhaps $1 per head, perhaps $10 per head, perhaps much more per head.

2. Wealth: A tax levied as a universal percentage of every persons liquid wealth, perhaps 1%, perhaps much more. There is NO progression, so the hobo on the street with $10 to his name would pay the same percentage as would Elon Musk.

3: Real estate: A set percentage would be levied on all real estate in the country. Unlike State property taxes, there would be NO homestead or other exemptions and no limitations on assessments.

4. Personal property: Could take any number of forms, but again would be uniform with no exemptions or limitations.

Capitation would always be the same in every state, but rates would vary between States on the other three types, due to the apportionment requirement.

An indirect tax under the Constitution is literally everything else, encompassing every type of taxation in existence. Indirect means that a tax is targeted at the point of exchange, not directly, of which a few examples of the endless number available are:

1. Exchange of time/labor for wages, salary, etc.

2. Exchange of money for goods and services.

3. Interest, dividends and capital gains earned and paid on investments.

4. Rent deriving from real or personal property.

But this discussion pertains ONLY to direct taxation as I have defined it above.

Currently, no direct taxation exists in the United States. The last direct tax was enacted in 1861 and repealed in 1872.

The biggest obstacle to direct taxation would be the Constitutional apportionment requirement, which rendered the 1861 tax ineffective and resulted in another Revenue Bill in 1862 which relied more on indirect taxation. The difficulty of apportionment was a major reason for the final repeal in 1872 of direct taxation.

It was difficult enough in 1861. In 2025, it would be all but impossible to levy an apportioned direct tax. States with large numbers of undocumented immigrants on its census population count are going to draw a higher apportionment percentage. That would lead to endless bickering and lawsuits. Poorer States are going to bear the same per capita tax load as richer States, meaning poorer States are going to be much more negatively impacted. California and New York have much higher wealth per person than Mississippi, but the per capita burden would be the same on all States.

A capitation tax is severely regressive and not likely to be levied.

A wealth tax is neither progressive nor regressive and would likely be used to some extent in direct taxation.

A real property (estate) tax is somewhat progressive.

A personal property tax would be the only form that could be made truly progressive, by targeting specific forms of property for taxation, such as boats and RV's or other such personal property more likely to be owned by wealthier persons.

Unfortunately, to satisfy a direct tax levy, likely a combination of wealth, real and personal taxation would be needed, limiting progressivity.

The bottom line is that a direct tax would be extremely difficult to levy, would be subject to intense litigation, would unduly burden poorer States and would fall more heavily on the poorer in society than our current system of taxation.

So I oppose any scheme that would attempt to invoke Federal direct taxation. Instead, I would support thoughtful measures for change to our current Federal system of indirect taxation.

I would also note that the apportionment requirement was included as a protection for slavery. The South knew that the Federal Government could end slavery by enacting a large direct tax on slaves and land. Much more land and nearly all slaves were in the South, making it all but impossible to apportion such a tax, so the apportionment requirement was introduced.

The apportionment requirement simply makes direct taxation both difficult to enact and enforce and economically destructive for poorer States.

I deliberately omitted capitation tax from the poll as simply too ridiculously regressive to be considered.

Short of amending the Constitution to entirely remove the apportionment requirement for direct taxation, direct taxation is simply not a practical idea. Even removing apportionment, it presents no advantage to existing indirect taxation.

Are you saying that income tax is a "folly" ?
 
According to the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO

Here are the 10 measures the proletariat will use to bring about the full realization of the communist utopian dream, once they have the political power:

  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

😂
 
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