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The Exodus motif and the name Brigham Young



You're not the first to make the comparison, Laska. I suspect that Brigham Young probably compared himself to Moses many times...just as Joseph Smith compared himself to Jesus.
 

You are spreading the hate, and ignorance.....not me. You sound exactly like some self annointed "christians" who spread hate, then call it spreading God's word. Any
group that dwells only on the negatives of others is a sad bunch indeed.
 
Moot said:
You're not the first to make the comparison, Laska. I suspect that Brigham Young probably compared himself to Moses many times...just as Joseph Smith compared himself to Jesus.
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I believe it was non LDS historians that began to call Brigham Young the American Moses. And it is obvious why. And Joseph Smith never claimed to be anything but a prophet of God who testifies of Christ. If you look at all the Bible prophets you will see from the meaning of their names, to many of the details of their lives that foreshadows the life of Jesus, that they are symbolic of Christ. It doesn't mean they are equal or greater than the one they testify of.
 
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tosca1 said:
It didn't turn out to be false. GOD RELENTED because of the repentance that the people showed. That's written in the Scriptures!
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Jonah told the people of Nineveh that God was going to destroy them. God did not destroy them. What Jonah told the Ninevites turned out to be false.

Was Jonah a true prophet, or a false prophet?
 

If you will take the time to read the article and understand it, you should have a better understanding of the quote you highlighted. On the restoration of the Aaronic and Melchizadech priesthood, Joseph and Oliver accounts are an interesting read. When I get time I'll provide links to that as well. (I do still plan on stepping out of this debate with you unless you show much greater ability to take the time and comprehend the LDS responses. I have a hard time not responding when you present questions in a sincere way).

Mormon Answers: Apostasy and the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the Prophet Joseph Smith (LDS FAQ)
 

As the NT apostles and faithful members of the NT church were being killed by those under the influence of the prince of this world, the rest of the members of the Church were being led away by the false teachings of "wolves in sheep's clothing" ie false Christian teachers. So what is left is just the members following the false Christian teachers. A shell of the NT church, with no apostolic authority, no real spiritual gifts, full of false doctrines, and no real authority from Heaven. By the time Rome tried to organize all the remnants of these Christian factions in the 4th century, the NT Church had long been dead.

Quotes from Christian reformers:

Martin Luther:
I do not say that I am a prophet. I simply say that they will have to be afraid ofthis as long as they scorn me and heed themselves.... If I am not a prophet I am at least sure of this, that the word of God is with me, and not with them, for I have the Scriptures on my side while they have only their own teachings. ... But do I not preach a new doctrine? No. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it--the bishops and scholars.
John M. Todd, Martin Luther: A Biographical Study (Newman Press, 1964), p. 188 (ellipses are original), as cited by Kevin Barney, "Did Luther Think He Lived Duriing a Time of Apostasy?," FAIRLDS.org (archived from 2005) and as cited by Gary P. Gillum in "'Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee': Understanding the Christ of the Restoration and the Reformation," in Revelation, Reason, and Faith: Essays in Honor of Truman G. Madsen edited by Daniel C. Peterson, Donald W. Parry, and Stephen D. Ricks (Provo, Utah: FARNS, 2002).


John Wesley also bemoaned the loss of the spiritual gifts (manifestations of the Holy Ghost) in the early church after two or three centuries. He noted that reports of such gifts became especially rare after the Constantine became a Christian. He wrote that the Christians "had only a dead form left" without the original and extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost that were found in the original Church (Sermon 89 in The Works of John Wesley, Sermons 71-114, ed. A.C. Outler, Nashville, Abingdon Press, 1986, 3:263-264, as cited by Winwood, pp. 12-13).


Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island, was an Anglican who later founded the Baptist church in America. Williams believed that divinely-given authority to men to act in the name of God (which we call the priesthood) had been lost from the earth. He looked forward to a time when Christ would send "new apostles to recover and restore all the ordinances and churches of Christ out of the ruins of antichristian apostasy." (See John Catton, A Reply to Mr. Williams ..., ed. J. Lewis Diman, in Complete Writings, 2:14, 50, cited by Donald Skaggs, Roger Williams' Dream for America, Peter Lang Publ., NY, 1993, p. 43; as cited by R. I. Winwood, Take Heed That Ye Be Not Deceived, R.I. Winwood, SLC, UT, 1995, p. 12)

The message of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that God has restored the NT church that the above reformers were seeking.
 
Tosca, here is the account of John the Baptist conferring the Aaronic priesthood to Joseph and his scribe Oliver, from the Joseph Smith History:

66 On the 5th day of April, 1829, Oliver Cowdery came to my house, until which time I had never seen him. He stated to me that having been teaching school in the neighborhood where my father resided, and my father being one of those who sent to the school, he went to board for a season at his house, and while there the family related to him the circumstances of my having received the plates, and accordingly he had come to make inquiries of me.

67 Two days after the arrival of Mr. Cowdery (being the 7th of April) I commenced to translate the Book of Mormon, and he began to write for me.

· · · · · · ·
68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:

69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.

71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.*

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.

73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.

75 We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this, too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife’s father’s family (under Divine providence), who had become very friendly to me, and who were opposed to mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay.
 
"The priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith by the laying on of hands by those who held it anciently. In May 1829, John the Baptist restored the Aaronic Priesthood, and shortly thereafter, Peter, James, and John, three of the Savior’s original Apostles, restored the Melchizedek Priesthood. On April 3, 1836, Moses, Elijah, and Elias restored additional priesthood keys."
 

Well, you quoted two or three people.

Besides, if you look around us today, these same men would've probably conclude that indeed the priesthood is gone from earth - and all the signs of the Second Coming is at hand!


If ever the priesthood was gone - as LDS wants to interpret it - Smith didn't bring it back!

It's still gone!


Just look how so many had corrupted the Words of Christ, and how true that many indeed will USE HIS NAME!
 
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laska said:
What are you talking about? All Joseph ever claimed was that he was a prophet of God. He in no way thought he was greater than Jesus. He was sent to testify of Jesus like all the prophets.
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No, he claimed to be greater than Jesus. He claimed that you need his - Joseph Smith's - consent to gain entry into the Kingdom of God.


•"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

"every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).


Brigham Young had taught that, and he wouldn't have described Smith as such if Smith had not described himself as such.


Any Christian should be appalled by those blasphemous and heretical claims!

Jesus said that no one can get to the Father EXCEPT through HIM.
He is The Way, the Truth and the life. And the Father backed Him up since The Father had clearly identified Him as His Son, and had instructed us to listen to Jesus.


Therefore....

If we go by Joseph Smith's claim about himself -

- that would make Jesus and The Father both liars, wouldn't it?
 
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The gate to the kingdom of God is baptism by those with the proper authority. LDS FAQ: The LDS Doctrine of Baptism (Mormon Baptism)

13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Just before Christ states the above, he goes into that prayer to Heavenly Father being the key to finding the gate, and immediately after he warns of the many false prophets and that by their fruits you will know them.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the gate, the only organization with the authority to baptize recognized by the Heavens. Those who do not accept Joseph Smith as a true prophet and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, cannot get into the kingdom of God. It was the same in the New Testament. Those who didn't accept Peter and the other apostles, the Lord's true servants, and rejected baptism by those with authority into the Lord's true church, did not enter in by the gate. Rejecting the Lord's true servants that He has sent, is rejecting Him. This is what those quotes you gave from the Journal of Discourses mean, not the way you interpreted them. Also the Journal of Discourses is not canonized. Those who try and discredit the religion have a hard time using canonized material so like searching for a needle in a haystack they comb non canonized material for any small quote that can make it appear the LDS is something they are not. They want so bad to make LDS prophets like Joseph Smith to look bad they ignore the many quotes that go against the portrait they are trying to paint, and give the one that can be interpreted out of context like they want. It is a dishonest tactic.

Article on the Journal of Discourses : Mormon ReligionWhat is the Mormon Journal of Discourses
 
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No, no, no.no.....the statement of Young is quite clear. In his statement, Joseph Smith is, "THE Authority."


that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith.

From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things,
every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me.

I cannot go there without his consent.

He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation - the keys to rule in the spirit-world;

and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh,

and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world.

He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.

Journal of Discourses 7:289 (Oct 9, 1859)


As you can see, he put himself above, if not equal with, Jesus Christ.
 
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Joseph Smith had dramatically altered what's in the Scriptures by those statement. What Jesus Christ had revealed and instructed to us were effectively declared "null and void" by Smith's proclamation.

Assuming Joseph Smith was indeed appointed by God to this elevated status, surely there would've been a clear indication of the role that Joseph Smith would play in the Scriptures.

The OT was practically littered with numerous prophecies and symbolisms of the coming Messiah, and the fulfillment of the promise of God. The prophecies in the OT were important since it would be those prophecies that would distinguish Jesus Christ from all the charlatans....thus they were made! Because of the fulfillment of those prophecies, we know and we believe that we do not worship an impostor.....we have the true Messiah which was sent by God.


So, why is there no hint of the coming of Joseph Smith in the Scriptures? Especially if his role is such that it would conflict with the message of the Messiah?

Surely, God isn't going to contradict His own words, and humiliate His own Son by making Him look unreliable.
 

and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh,


It was Jesus Christ who had victory over Satan when He died for us on that cross. Let's not make any statements that would make that fact obscure.
 
and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world.

He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.



He is supreme in the spirit world, as God is supreme in Heaven. He's saying he is the counterpart of God in the spirit world.

Well, God is not only supreme in heaven, God is SUPREME! Period.
There is are no parameters, or boundaries, or limit to the supremacy of God!
 
Tosca, you constantly misinterpret things. If you had read the link, the journal of discourses is not canonized. The LDS do think Joseph Smith is a great prophet but he is not thought of greater than Jesus, he testifies of Jesus. Just as the the New Testament apostles have been given power by God to be judges, Joseph Smith will be a judge. "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mathew 19:28
 

Here are two threads of mine:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/189653-hebrew-calendar-testifies-prophet-joseph-smith.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/192563-ancient-islamic-sources-joseph-egypt-and-quotes-joseph-s-contemporaries.html
 

Did Brigham Young make that discourse? Yes or no.
 
tosca1 said:
Did Brigham Young make that discourse? Yes or no.
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We do not know if it was quoted accurately, and if it was we do not know if it was Brigham Young's opinion or if he was speaking as a prophet by the spirit. That is why faithful LDS members stick with what is canonized. I've also shown that the NT apostles will sit on thrones in Heaven and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. So God giving Joseph divine authority to act as a judge is consistent with the Bible.
 
I don't know how accurate Wiki is on Brigham Young, but I'm intrigued by this entry:

Of Young's 55 wives, 21 had never been married before; 16 were widows; six were divorced; six had living husbands; and the marital status of six others are unknown.

Brigham Young - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If six of those women had living husbands....that means, Young had committed adultery?
 
laska said:
We do not know if it was quoted accurately, and if it was we do not know if it was Brigham Young's opinion or if he was speaking as a prophet by the spirit.
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So when do you know when he's speaking as a prophet or not? :lol:

That's the whole point, isn't it? Not knowing.
 
tosca1 said:
So when do you know when he's speaking as a prophet or not? :lol:

That's the whole point, isn't it? Not knowing.
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Tosca, we've been over this before. It doesn't look like there is anything I can say that is going to alter your opinions. Not once that I can think of have you taken back any accusations and admitted my response resolved an issue. It is typical when debating someone that cannot go beyond their biases. If I was telling people what say Baptists believe and was throwing out stuff full of errors, which I would never do anyway, if someone showed where I was mistaken I would apologize and admit it. I am pro LDS but I am an honest debater. So Tosca, believe what you want.
 
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