The Exodus motif and the name Brigham Young

[laska]

The Book of Mormon opens with an exodus motif, an escape from death and bondage by following a great prophet on a journey through the wilderness to the Promise Land. This motif is repeated over and over in the Book of Mormon. The same Exodus motif is seen in the Bible as the nation of Israel opens their history as a nation with it. Same details as the BoM, 1/being in a place that if they remain they will be destroyed, 2. they escape this destruction by following a mighty prophet of God on a journey across a wilderness to 3. the Promise Land. The Book of Mormon tells us that this repeated motif has symbolic meaning. Babylon in scripture speak means this fallen world in all it's corruption and lasciviousness. Egypt means "that which is forbidden" in other words sin. The mighty prophet that the people follow to escape destruction is symbolic of Christ. The name Moses means "Deliverer" which is another name for Jesus in the scriptures. Many details in Moses' life foreshadow and symbolize what would happen in Jesus' mortal life. Surviving an infanticide edict meant to kill the Messiah of Israel, escaping the edict by going into the house of Egypt, both shepherds who would be a Deliver of Israel. Just in case you do not see who the prophet represents in the exodus motif, it is Joshua who actually leads Israel into the Promise Land. Joshua is the Hebrew form for the English name Jesus. In the Book of Mormon Nephi is the great prophet that is symbolic of Christ. His name means "Good". Because of his faith and righteousness and good works, his father made him ruler over his brethren. He was an instrument in calming the seas while on the ship on the ocean. All symbolic of Christ. The wilderness in the motif is symbolic of our mortal journey here on the earth. The Promise Land is symbolic of Heaven. So the meaning of the exodus motif is if we stay in our fallen condition, captive to the fallen values of this world(Babylon, Egypt, bondage to sin) we are headed to eternal destruction. The only way to escape is to follow the Lord in this life, he is the only mediator or bridge to get us from fallen man or woman to returning to Heaven with the gift of eternal life (Promise Land).


The exodus motif is an ensign to the nations that the Kingdom of God is now on the earth. In the ancient world Israel escaped destruction during Passover by following a great prophet of God, Moses, across a vast wilderness to their Promise Land. They settled next to the second largest inland lake of salt in the world (the Lord's people are called the salt of the earth), built a great temple, made the desert bloom. When God restored the kingdom of God through the prophet Joseph, we get the Latter Day Saints escaping destruction by their enemies with an Exodus, beginning during Passover, across the American wilderness, led by the prophet Brigham Young, to their Promise Land, where they settled next to the largest inland lake of salt in the world, built a great temple, and made the desert bloom.


As I was thinking about how Brigham Young was symbolic of Christ I came up with they were both carpenters. Not a whole lot. I was confident the exodus would began during Passover but when I checked the date they left Nauvoo for Winter Quarters I was surprised it was not. Then it dawned on me the official date for their exodus was when they left Winter Quarters and sure enough they began their journey during Passover. When I looked up the meaning of the name Brigham Young it took me a little while to see how perfect it was for the motif. Brigham Young means "bridge settlement". Perfect for the symbolism in the motif of Christ being the bridge between bondage to sin/destruction and returning to God.

 

[Moot]

As I was thinking about how Brigham Young was symbolic of Christ I came up with they were both carpenters. Not a whole lot. But when I looked up the meaning of his name I was blown away. Brigham Young means "bridge settlement". Perfect for the symbolism in the motif of Christ being the bridge between bondage to sin and destruction to returning to God. [/SIZE]

Speaking of bondage, remind us what Brigham Young had to say about blacks?

 

[laska]

Speaking of bondage, remind us what Brigham Young had to say about blacks?

Please don't sabotage this thread. I expect more from you. Start another thread and I'll be happy to respond.

 

[Moot]

Please don't sabotage this thread. I expect more from you. Start another thread and I'll be happy to respond.

This isn't your private pulpit.

How do you reconcile what Brigham Young said about blacks with your symbolism of him as a "bridge from bondage to sin and destruction to returning to God" when he considered blacks, Jews, Asians, Hispanics, Indians to have the Mark of Cain and to be inferior and should never ever hold a seat in government or office? He'd be spinning in his grave if he knew a black man had beat a Mormon for the president of the US.

Brigham Young's Speech on: Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood

 

[laska]

This isn't your private pulpit.

How do you reconcile what Brigham Young said about blacks with your symbolism of him as a "bridge from bondage to sin and destruction to returning to God" when he considered blacks, Jews, Asians, Hispanics, Indians to have the Mark of Cain and to be inferior and should never ever hold a seat in government or office? He'd be spinning in his grave if he knew a black man had beat a Mormon for the president of the US.

Brigham Young's Speech on: Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood

I will not respond in this thread. If you weren't trying to sabotage this thread because the evidence is strong in support of something you seem to hate, you would open a thread where you can list all the disinformation you want and I will respond to at least the first 10 of them just to show how full of disinformation and sensationalism they are.

 

[laska]

3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.- Isaiah 18:3




And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us ago up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk
in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Isaiah 2: 2-3




The word Utah is a Hopi word that means "on top of the mountains". In Salt lake City, which literally sits on top of the mountains, there is a temple with gold letters emblazoned on it "The House of the Lord". There is a golden angel on top of the spires blowing a trumpet. Every year thousands of people from all over the world visit temple square in Salt Lake City, the headquarters of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

[WCH]

Was there a couple of summers ago...beautiful place.

 

[laska]

The Promise Land imagery of the LDS exodus can be seen in the following pics of the Utah Valley. The weary saints that crossed the American wilderness must have had such joy in their hears when they laid eyes on what the Lord had led them to.

https://plus.google.com/photos/110924892937009386100/albums/6034052189905452641

 

[UtahBill]

Speaking of bondage, remind us what Brigham Young had to say about blacks?

He was acting as did many in his day, out of ignorance. Being head of a church does not make a person perfect in all ways.
If I am wrong about that, feel free to correct me, with evidence.
If racial insults are really important to you, check out when and why the Southern Baptist Conference came into existence, and what year they
apologized for their shunning of blacks.

 

[Moot]

He was acting as did many in his day, out of ignorance. Being head of a church does not make a person perfect in all ways.
If I am wrong about that, feel free to correct me, with evidence.
If racial insults are really important to you, check out when and why the Southern Baptist Conference came into existence, and what year they
apologized for their shunning of blacks.

I don't care how much it insults you...Brigham Young was not and is not a "bridge from bondage to God". There are still a lot of LDS alive today who were indoctrinated with Young's teachings about the curse of Cain and still haven't fully reconciled themselves with the "new" revelations.


There is evidence that Joseph Smith welcomed blacks into the priesthood but after he died and Brigham Young became the prophet he soon banned blacks from the priesthood and the church leaders kept it that way for the next hundred years or more. The only reason the quorum had a revelation in 1978 was because they had just built a temple in Brazil and the first in S. America before they realized they couldn't convert many Brazilians or bring them into the priesthood because most of them had black ancestry. Ooops.

 

[UtahBill]

I don't care how much it insults you...Brigham Young was not and is not a "bridge from bondage to God". There are still a lot of LDS alive today who were indoctrinated with Young's teachings about the curse of Cain and still haven't fully reconciled themselves with the "new" revelations.


There is evidence that Joseph Smith welcomed blacks into the priesthood but after he died and Brigham Young became the prophet he soon banned blacks from the priesthood and the church leaders kept it that way for the next hundred years or more. The only reason the quorum had a revelation in 1978 was because they had just built a temple in Brazil and the first in S. America before they realized they couldn't convert many Brazilians or bring them into the priesthood because most of them had black ancestry. Ooops.

the ONLY reason? What is your reasoning, or source, for such?
There are racists today within the church, but most of them keep quiet about it. No religion is without some bad apples....
and the "bridge from bondage to God", I don't think I even know what that means...

 

[Moot]

the ONLY reason? What is your reasoning, or source, for such?
There are racists today within the church, but most of them keep quiet about it. No religion is without some bad apples....
and the "bridge from bondage to God", I don't think I even know what that means...

Really, so you think Brigham Young, the second prophet of the LDS church was a bad apple, huh?

Racism and blood atonement, oh my.

Spare us your self righteous indignation and explain how God's truth was revealed by Mormon prophets for over hundred years and then suddenly became an untruth in 1978 right after the LDS built a fancy temple in S. America that desperately needed funding?

São Paulo Brazil LDS (Mormon) Temple

The Sao Paulo temple appears to have been funded with the gold teeth of the "filthy, unclean, ignorant Lamanites" whose biblical curse was suddenly lifted by the divine revelation of the quorum (12 old white men) in SLC and just in time to dedicate the temple. How convenient. eace

 

[UtahBill]

Really, so you think Brigham Young, the second prophet of the LDS church was a bad apple, huh?

Racism and blood atonement, oh my.

Spare us your self righteous indignation and explain how God's truth was revealed by Mormon prophets for over hundred years and then suddenly became an untruth in 1978 right after the LDS built a fancy temple in S. America that desperately needed funding?

São Paulo Brazil LDS (Mormon) Temple

The Sao Paulo temple appears to have been funded with the gold teeth of the "filthy, unclean, ignorant Lamanites" whose biblical curse was suddenly lifted by the divine revelation of the quorum (12 old white men) in SLC and just in time to dedicate the temple. How convenient. eace

No prophet/leader/pope of any church has been given all the knowledge at once, and all of them are imperfect, thus capable of error. You know that....
and the gold fillings thing? what hate group made that up? I have read a lot of stupid from former LDS haters, but this one is new to me.

 

[laska]

When Brigham Young enacted the policy, he stated there would be a later time when those of black African descent would also have the priesthood. It has never been revealed why the policy was enacted. In 1978 the restriction was lifted. The LDS were anti-slavery, the Book of Mormon is a critique against racism and states the following: 33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.-2 Nephi 26:33

While most other churches in the U.S. were segregated and many supported slavery, the LDS was just the opposite. My theory as to why there was a temporary ban on the priesthood is that free agency is a fundamental principle of the priesthood. It wasn't until after WW2 that African nations began to free themselves from imperial rule by Europeans, and not until after the Civil Rights movement that blacks and whites could even use the same water fountain down South. There are other possibilities for the restriction. Maybe white people were not righteous enough and ready for total integration and it was delayed to a later date. In LDS theology those in this life who do not have the opportunity to have the full blessings of the gospel but who would have embraced it if given the chance, will have all those blessings in the hereafter. No blessing will be denied to them. One last thing, in the Bible the priesthood has always been denied to cerain lineages, while others have been given access. With no explanation why. Only the tribe of Levi could hold the priesthood during the time of Moses. The gentiles were not to be taught the gospel while Jesus was with the Israelites in person but when He ascended to the Father the apostles were given by revelation that the time had come to bring the gospel to the gentiles. Was Moses racist, was Jesus? If so, why did they change policies at a later date. Why did Brigham say at the time the policy was enacted that at a later time blacks of African descent would have all the blessings of the restored gospel and then some. Maybe there is something else going on than racism. Today all people have access to every blessing of the gospel, as the early LDS prophets stated would happen.

It was common belief by 19th century European/Americans ie white people, that blacks were under the curse of Cain. Leading astronomers as well as everyday people also believed the moon had people on it. Brigham Young believed both. A prophet is only a prophet when he speaks what is given to him by the Lord. In all other cases thay are flawed people like we all are. This is my only response to this. And wow, what anti-Mormons come up with (gold teeth :lamo.)

 

[Moot]

No prophet/leader/pope of any church has been given all the knowledge at once, and all of them are imperfect, thus capable of error. You know that....
and the gold fillings thing? what hate group made that up? I have read a lot of stupid from former LDS haters, but this one is new to me.

Whaaa, you've never heard of Elder James "Gold Filling" Faust? :shock: Well, it's a true story alright....


"...At the time, members were expected to raise one-third of the cost of a new temple. With so many having so little, members made extraordinary sacrifices to raise money. One memorable donation was a gold dental bridge presented by an Argentine man to a pair of missionaries. They declined the gift at first, saying they couldn't take the man's teeth, but he responded, "You can't deny me the blessings I will receive by giving this to the Lord for his temple." Elder James E. Faust, who was serving as the South America area supervisor for the Church, heard the story and paid a generous sum of money for the gold. From that day on, he kept the dental bridge as a reminder of the Saints' countless sacrifices.2...."
São Paulo Brazil LDS (Mormon) Temple


Maybe you should call it the "gold dental bridge from bondage to Faust". LOL

 

[tosca1]

A prophet is only a prophet when he speaks what is given to him by the Lord.

How do we know who is a real prophet? Anyone can claim, "I am a prophet."
How do we know a real prophet from a delusional, or a scam?

 

[tosca1]

No religion is without some bad apples....

Very true.

However, a God-appointed prophet would not be among the "bad apples."

Would a practicing adulterer be a prophet? I can see a former adulterer who'd repented, can be a prophet....but is someone unrepentant be God-appointed?

 

[tosca1]

A prophet is only a prophet when he speaks what is given to him by the Lord. In all other cases thay are flawed people like we all are.

True, God-appointed prophets are people like us as they live their everyday lives.

HOWEVER, when they speak before the people about God.....they wouldn't be flawed, since it would be the Spirit that puts the Words in their mouths.

The Words are merely tumbling out of their mouths - because they're all coming from God.
At least that's how it is, according to Jesus.


Furthermore, their everyday lives will reflect what they preach.
They wouldn't say stupid or hurtful words - especially things about an innocent human being. At least, that's how it was with the God-appointed Biblical prophets.

 

[UtahBill]

Very true.

However, a God-appointed prophet would not be among the "bad apples."

Would a practicing adulterer be a prophet? I can see a former adulterer who'd repented, can be a prophet....but is someone unrepentant be God-appointed?

ever read about the Kings and prophets of the OT? they did some pretty bad things....

 

[UtahBill]

Really, so you think Brigham Young, the second prophet of the LDS church was a bad apple, huh?

Racism and blood atonement, oh my.

Spare us your self righteous indignation and explain how God's truth was revealed by Mormon prophets for over hundred years and then suddenly became an untruth in 1978 right after the LDS built a fancy temple in S. America that desperately needed funding?

São Paulo Brazil LDS (Mormon) Temple

The Sao Paulo temple appears to have been funded with the gold teeth of the "filthy, unclean, ignorant Lamanites" whose biblical curse was suddenly lifted by the divine revelation of the quorum (12 old white men) in SLC and just in time to dedicate the temple. How convenient. eace

I googled the pic, it is from an anti-mormon group....not exactly an unbiased source. Lamanites were not considered blacks, in fact, only African blacks were excluded.
South Pacific blacks were not excluded, neither were other races of dark color.
I am not defending Brigham Young, nor does he defend himself. He once said that his greatest fear is that the saints would take everything he says as gospel truth. So even he realized that he isn't perfect.
I was raised baptist in east texas, and converted at age 21.....and the blacks/priesthood issue was a concern for me at the time. I judge a person's religious conviction by what good comes from it, not so much the mistakes of it's leaders 150 years ago.
The Catholics were once capable of much evil, but no longer. Now they and the LDS work together to get food to starving people. The LDS have the goods, the Catholics have the distribution networks.
It appears you were raised LDS and didn't much care for it. What religion did you convert to?

 

[UtahBill]

Whaaa, you've never heard of Elder James "Gold Filling" Faust? :shock: Well, it's a true story alright....


"...At the time, members were expected to raise one-third of the cost of a new temple. With so many having so little, members made extraordinary sacrifices to raise money. One memorable donation was a gold dental bridge presented by an Argentine man to a pair of missionaries. They declined the gift at first, saying they couldn't take the man's teeth, but he responded, "You can't deny me the blessings I will receive by giving this to the Lord for his temple." Elder James E. Faust, who was serving as the South America area supervisor for the Church, heard the story and paid a generous sum of money for the gold. From that day on, he kept the dental bridge as a reminder of the Saints' countless sacrifices.2...."
São Paulo Brazil LDS (Mormon) Temple


Maybe you should call it the "gold dental bridge from bondage to Faust". LOL

it is a far cry from one dental bridge to a handful of fillings.....propaganda from hate groups is often easily exposed.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Very true.

However, a God-appointed prophet would not be among the "bad apples."

Would a practicing adulterer be a prophet? I can see a former adulterer who'd repented, can be a prophet....but is someone unrepentant be God-appointed?

Prophets are human. Like all humans, they are imperfect, subject to sin and error.

Moses and David were murderers. David was an adulterer as well.

Consider Jonah. God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, and tell them to straighten up or else God was going to have to go down there and kick their asses. So what did Jonah do? He caught the first ship he could in the opposite direction, trying to get as far from Nineveh as he could. God had to resort to some rather extraordinary means to get Jonah to go to Nineveh. When Jonah got there, he didn't deliver the message correctly. He just told the Ninevans that God was going to kick their asses. He somehow forgot the “Repent or else…” part of the message. He then staked out a place with a good view, and sat down with a big tub of popcorn and a 32-ounce Diet Coke, and waited for what he expected to be the greatest show since Sodom and Gomorrah.

Meanwhile, down in Nineveh, in spite of Jonah's error, the people got it. They repented, and so Jonah was greatly disappointed and angry when he didn't get to see God kick their asses. The last chapter of Jonah's story is about God trying to explain to Jonah where he went wrong.

Was Jonah a prophet of God, or wasn't he?

 

[ludin]

it is a far cry from one dental bridge to a handful of fillings.....propaganda from hate groups is often easily exposed.

why is it that every time some inconsistantcy is point out that instead of it being a directly unbiblical think you try and label it as propaganda or a hate group?
that doesn't dissolve the argument for what it is. it simply shows that you can't counter the point made.

it is almost an ad hominem. stop ad hominem and just deal with the inconsistantcies if you can. you would be much better off.

 

[UtahBill]

why is it that every time some inconsistantcy is point out that instead of it being a directly unbiblical think you try and label it as propaganda or a hate group?
that doesn't dissolve the argument for what it is. it simply shows that you can't counter the point made.

it is almost an ad hominem. stop ad hominem and just deal with the inconsistantcies if you can. you would be much better off.

who says that all that a religion teaches must be consistent? people are not perfect, every group has some baggage....
The "point being made" is not very clear, or perhaps even valid....

got a question....what is your original or initial complaint with the LDS that makes you go to extremes to find fault?
BTW, I am not a true blue dyed in the wool LDS....I was inactive for 10 years, still don't have a temple recommend....

go to the source of the pic, the forum is a hate group, plain as can be...

 

[ludin]

who says that all that a religion teaches must be consistent? people are not perfect, every group has some baggage....
The "point being made" is not very clear, or perhaps even valid....

got a question....what is your original or initial complaint with the LDS that makes you go to extremes to find fault?
BTW, I am not a true blue dyed in the wool LDS....I was inactive for 10 years, still don't have a temple recommend....

go to the source of the pic, the forum is a hate group, plain as can be...

If something doesn't align with what Christ said or teached then one can figure well enough that it is a false teaching.

That some of the teachings in the book of mormon goes against what Christ said or taught. The things that joseph smith said goes against those same teachings.
therefore something is not compatable with each other.

IE there are not 3 heavens. There is 1 heaven and 1 earth.
Satan is not Jesus's brother. Jesus is not an angel. He is the Son of God, and is now Lord of all.

Brigham Young speaking in the Journal of Discourses Vo1 15, Page 770 1853, \"Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be a very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children.

this is highly anti-biblical. yet it is part of the view of the mormon church.

Since the Holy Ghost is what lives inside of everyone this is very much in contention with the bible.