- Joined
- Apr 18, 2013
- Messages
- 94,358
- Reaction score
- 82,750
- Location
- Barsoom
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
1/9/19
Twenty-five years ago, Ukraine possessed the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal. It had inherited 175 long-range missiles and more than 1,800 warheads after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Following two years of talks been the United States, Russia, and Ukraine, U.S. President Bill Clinton announced a breakthrough on January 10, 1994. Ukraine had agreed to remove all nuclear weapons from its soil in exchange for assurances that Russia would respect its sovereignty.
The Destruction Of Ukraine's Nuclear Arsenal
As we all know, Moscow severely violated Ukraine's sovereignty (and the spirit of the Budapest Memorandum) in 2014 by illegally annexing Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. In hindsight, Kyiv should have preserved her nuclear capability.
The article above is a photo-montage of the voluntary destruction of Ukraine's nuclear arsenal (3rd largest in the world) 25 years ago.
The Destruction Of Ukraine's Nuclear Arsenal
As we all know, Moscow severely violated Ukraine's sovereignty (and the spirit of the Budapest Memorandum) in 2014 by illegally annexing Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. In hindsight, Kyiv should have preserved her nuclear capability.
The article above is a photo-montage of the voluntary destruction of Ukraine's nuclear arsenal (3rd largest in the world) 25 years ago.
Get real, RV. LIke the World needed the flamin' nutbags of Ukraine to have Nukes.???
/
Brought to you by RT.com[sup]®[/sup]
You lament that a state which over-threw its own democratically elected President in 2014, which has had a 5 year civil war ongoing, which has private paramilitary militias, and which is called out even by US Congress members for glorifying Nazis does not have nuclear weapons? :shock:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/congress-members-call-out-ukraine-government-for-glorifying-nazis/
More than 50 US Congress members condemned Ukrainian legislation that they said “glorifies Nazi collaborators” and therefore goes further than Poland’s laws on rhetoric about the Holocaust.
The condemnation came in an open bipartisan letter to Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan that was initiated by Democratic Reps. Ro Khanna of California and David Cicilline of Rhode Island.
Well, we'll certainly never see Russia destroying her nuclear weapons arsenal will we Westphalian?
They wouldn't be able to bully anyone then now would they?
You started this thread about Ukraine - can you answer the question?
Westphalian:
From a Ukrainian perspective it was a big mistake to denuclearise their military and an even bigger mistake to trust Russia to respect and protect Ukrainian sovereignty. It was also highly naive to think that Western powers would come to Ukraine's defence in the event of Russian aggression.
Since Russia unilaterally abrogated the Budapest Memoranda, the deal is null and void, and thus Ukraine is free to unilaterally reestablish a credible nuclear deterrent to ward off Russian aggression.
How much of Ukraine is a destroyed and uninhabitable greater Moscow metropolitan area worth to you, I wonder? Because if a state doesn't respect peace and the treaties it signs in order to maintain peace, then war is what it shall reap. Russia has suffered enough in the last century and should not be put through the nuclear ringer in this century. Mr. Putin should take that point to heart, because the seeds of the destruction of both Ukraine and Russia are being sewn in the trenches of the Donbas and watered in human blood. They will soon germinate and then this will not end well for either state.
Regretfully.
Evilroddy.
Westphalian:
From a Ukrainian perspective it was a big mistake to denuclearise their military and an even bigger mistake to trust Russia to respect and protect Ukrainian sovereignty. It was also highly naive to think that Western powers would come to Ukraine's defence in the event of Russian aggression.
Since Russia unilaterally abrogated the Budapest Memoranda, the deal is null and void, and thus Ukraine is free to unilaterally reestablish a credible nuclear deterrent to ward off Russian aggression.
How much of Ukraine is a destroyed and uninhabitable greater Moscow metropolitan area worth to you, I wonder? Because if a state doesn't respect peace and the treaties it signs in order to maintain peace, then war is what it shall reap. Russia has suffered enough in the last century and should not be put through the nuclear ringer in this century. Mr. Putin should take that point to heart, because the seeds of the destruction of both Ukraine and Russia are being sewn in the trenches of the Donbas and watered in human blood. They will soon germinate and then this will not end well for either state.
Regretfully.
Evilroddy.
Indeed. I'm a bit surprised that Ukraine hasn't yet taken partisan warfare to Russia proper. But it may come. The Russian people need to feel the pains of war that Ukrainians are now enduring.
For someone who feigns a great concern for Ukraine, you sure as heck prescribe courses of action that would be catastrophic for them.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Why should you be safe?
I hope Kiev wakes up before its too late for them.
I hope the people of Russia wake up. But it's probably already too late.
The logic for Kiev is inescapable - elect a sensible moderate regime prepared to talk sensibly to the separatists and Moscow.
This can't and won't happen until Crimea is returned and Russia removes its military from occupied Donbas.
No country would do less.
Crimea is Russia - always has been apart from a brief accident of post Soviet break up, and always will be.
Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than with the US.
Crimea is Russia - always has been apart from a brief accident of post Soviet break up, and always will be.
It's fine to sit in the US and advocate Ukrainian hostility to Russia for ever. But that's a stupid and selfish policy which causes huge harm to Ukrainians. Real people, real lives.
Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than with the US. Eventually the pro West oligarch puppets will be replaced. Just a question of how many Ukrainians have to die before it happens.
Westphalian:
Your statement about Crimea is factually wrong because Nikita Khrushchev transferred ownership of the oblast to the Ukrainian SSR in February of 1954 and made it sovereign Ukrainian territory. He alienated it from Russian control and ownership and this alienation was not done under duress or as the result of military action or threat. Therefore Russia and yourself have no legal leg to stand on when you claim ownership of that territory. Furthermore the UN, which the USSR/Russia were and are members of, made the acquisition of territory by military means illegal under international law in 1948 and the USSR supported that decision. So the seizure of Ukrainian Crimea by Russian special forces and the follow-on plebiscite to join Russia have no legal standing. Therefore Russia occupies Crimea but does not own it. Ownership is legally sanctioned and recognised possession and since the world community does not recognise Russia's claim to Crimea there is no legal ownership, just military occupation. According to international law and the UN Charter Mr. Putin and the senior Russian military leadership are now alleged war criminals and could be indicted and prosecuted for the military seizure of Crimea and the de facto invasion of the Donbas.
The only sensible course open to Russia and Ukraine is bilateral negotiations to settle this dispute. To continue down the military path will achieve nothing and will make Russia more of a pariah state in the eyes of the whole world including the Eurasian states you wish to align with. Ukraine aligned with Russia after the Civil War and again after WWII and then had a greedy Russia illegally seize and/or occupie its territory when Ukraine decided to take a policy detour from the Russian line. That lesson will not be lost on the Eurasian states of Central Asia nor on China if an alliance with Russia is being offered to Eurasia.
Cheers.
Evilroddy.
The only sensible course open to Russia and Ukraine is bilateral negotiations to settle this dispute.
The only items minimally negotiable consists of the timetables for Moscow to fully return Crimea to its rightful owner, and the withdrawal of all Russian officials, agents, soldiers, mercenaries, and military equipment from all areas of the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, and the return of 418 km of border to Ukraine's control.
Russia must also return to Ukraine all POWs and Ukrainian/Crimean civilian prisoners such as Oleg Sentsov etc. The illegal Crimea Bridge must be dismantled. Free maritime navigation of the Black Sea must be guaranteed, and maritime navigation in the mutually shared Sea of Azov will adhere to the Russia/Ukraine Kerch Strait/Sea of Azov Treaty of 2003. Russia will return all Ukraine boats/ships seized since February 2014. Crimean gas/oil fields in the Black Sea shall be returned to Ukraine sovereignty. Russia also owes Ukraine monetary compensation for 12,000+ deaths, 22,000+ injuries, 1.5 million displaced, 64,000 damaged/destroyed structures, and significant environmental damages in Donbas.
Well said.
May I quote the above any time Westphalian tries his excuses IRT Crimea?
Fledermaus:
Sure, if you want, but I'm hardly a suitable citation authority. Google "Crimea Ukraine Khrushchev" and you will find many better citations than my off-the-cuff rebuttal of Westphalian's claim.
Cheers.
Evilroddy.
The only items minimally negotiable consists of the timetables for Moscow to fully return Crimea to its rightful owner, and the withdrawal of all Russian officials, agents, soldiers, mercenaries, and military equipment from all areas of the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, and the return of 418 km of border to Ukraine's control.
Russia must also return to Ukraine all POWs and Ukrainian/Crimean civilian prisoners such as Oleg Sentsov etc. The illegal Crimea Bridge must be dismantled. Free maritime navigation of the Black Sea must be guaranteed, and maritime navigation in the mutually shared Sea of Azov will adhere to the Russia/Ukraine Kerch Strait/Sea of Azov Treaty of 2003. Russia will return all Ukraine boats/ships seized since February 2014. Crimean gas/oil fields in the Black Sea shall be returned to Ukraine sovereignty. Russia also owes Ukraine monetary compensation for 12,000+ deaths, 22,000+ injuries, 1.5 million displaced, 64,000 damaged/destroyed structures, and significant environmental damages in Donbas.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?