• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Destruction Of Ukraine's Nuclear Arsenal

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The Destruction Of Ukraine's Nuclear Arsenal

1/9/19
Twenty-five years ago, Ukraine possessed the world’s third-largest nuclear arsenal. It had inherited 175 long-range missiles and more than 1,800 warheads after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Following two years of talks been the United States, Russia, and Ukraine, U.S. President Bill Clinton announced a breakthrough on January 10, 1994. Ukraine had agreed to remove all nuclear weapons from its soil in exchange for assurances that Russia would respect its sovereignty.

As we all know, Moscow severely violated Ukraine's sovereignty (and the spirit of the Budapest Memorandum) in 2014 by illegally annexing Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. In hindsight, Kyiv should have preserved her nuclear capability.

The article above is a photo-montage of the voluntary destruction of Ukraine's nuclear arsenal (3rd largest in the world) 25 years ago.
 

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
45,404
Reaction score
11,746
Location
Olympia Wa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The Destruction Of Ukraine's Nuclear Arsenal



As we all know, Moscow severely violated Ukraine's sovereignty (and the spirit of the Budapest Memorandum) in 2014 by illegally annexing Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. In hindsight, Kyiv should have preserved her nuclear capability.

The article above is a photo-montage of the voluntary destruction of Ukraine's nuclear arsenal (3rd largest in the world) 25 years ago.

Ukraine had neither the money nor the competence to hold on to the Nukes....So No.
 

DaveFagan

Iconoclast
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
10,090
Reaction score
5,056
Location
wny
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
The Destruction Of Ukraine's Nuclear Arsenal



As we all know, Moscow severely violated Ukraine's sovereignty (and the spirit of the Budapest Memorandum) in 2014 by illegally annexing Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. In hindsight, Kyiv should have preserved her nuclear capability.

The article above is a photo-montage of the voluntary destruction of Ukraine's nuclear arsenal (3rd largest in the world) 25 years ago.

Get real, RV. LIke the World needed the flamin' nutbags of Ukraine to have Nukes.???
/
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Brought to you by RT.com[sup]®[/sup]


You lament that a state which over-threw its own democratically elected President in 2014, which has had a 5 year civil war ongoing, which has private paramilitary militias, and which is called out even by US Congress members for glorifying Nazis does not have nuclear weapons? :shock:


https://www.timesofisrael.com/congress-members-call-out-ukraine-government-for-glorifying-nazis/

More than 50 US Congress members condemned Ukrainian legislation that they said “glorifies Nazi collaborators” and therefore goes further than Poland’s laws on rhetoric about the Holocaust.

The condemnation came in an open bipartisan letter to Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan that was initiated by Democratic Reps. Ro Khanna of California and David Cicilline of Rhode Island.
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
You lament that a state which over-threw its own democratically elected President in 2014, which has had a 5 year civil war ongoing, which has private paramilitary militias, and which is called out even by US Congress members for glorifying Nazis does not have nuclear weapons? :shock:


https://www.timesofisrael.com/congress-members-call-out-ukraine-government-for-glorifying-nazis/

More than 50 US Congress members condemned Ukrainian legislation that they said “glorifies Nazi collaborators” and therefore goes further than Poland’s laws on rhetoric about the Holocaust.

The condemnation came in an open bipartisan letter to Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan that was initiated by Democratic Reps. Ro Khanna of California and David Cicilline of Rhode Island.

Well, we'll certainly never see Russia destroying her nuclear weapons arsenal will we Westphalian?

They wouldn't be able to bully anyone then now would they?
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Well, we'll certainly never see Russia destroying her nuclear weapons arsenal will we Westphalian?

They wouldn't be able to bully anyone then now would they?


You started this thread about Ukraine - can you answer the question?
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
10,126
Reaction score
7,673
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
You started this thread about Ukraine - can you answer the question?

Westphalian:

From a Ukrainian perspective it was a big mistake to denuclearise their military and an even bigger mistake to trust Russia to respect and protect Ukrainian sovereignty. It was also highly naive to think that Western powers would come to Ukraine's defence in the event of Russian aggression.

Since Russia unilaterally abrogated the Budapest Memoranda, the deal is null and void, and thus Ukraine is free to unilaterally reestablish a credible nuclear deterrent to ward off Russian aggression.

How much of Ukraine is a destroyed and uninhabitable greater Moscow metropolitan area worth to you, I wonder? Because if a state doesn't respect peace and the treaties it signs in order to maintain peace, then war is what it shall reap. Russia has suffered enough in the last century and should not be put through the nuclear ringer in this century. Mr. Putin should take that point to heart, because the seeds of the destruction of both Ukraine and Russia are being sewn in the trenches of the Donbas and watered in human blood. They will soon germinate and then this will not end well for either state.

Regretfully.
Evilroddy.
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Westphalian:

From a Ukrainian perspective it was a big mistake to denuclearise their military and an even bigger mistake to trust Russia to respect and protect Ukrainian sovereignty. It was also highly naive to think that Western powers would come to Ukraine's defence in the event of Russian aggression.

Since Russia unilaterally abrogated the Budapest Memoranda, the deal is null and void, and thus Ukraine is free to unilaterally reestablish a credible nuclear deterrent to ward off Russian aggression.

How much of Ukraine is a destroyed and uninhabitable greater Moscow metropolitan area worth to you, I wonder? Because if a state doesn't respect peace and the treaties it signs in order to maintain peace, then war is what it shall reap. Russia has suffered enough in the last century and should not be put through the nuclear ringer in this century. Mr. Putin should take that point to heart, because the seeds of the destruction of both Ukraine and Russia are being sewn in the trenches of the Donbas and watered in human blood. They will soon germinate and then this will not end well for either state.

Regretfully.
Evilroddy.

Nobody wants war, but Ukraine is not able to defend itself should it threaten Russia.

Why do you talk about the destruction of Moscow? Only the US can do this, and it would itself suffer devastation in return.

I doubt you advocate that. You have said in the past that the US should give Ukraine nuclear weapons. Such would be grossly stupid and reckless, would destroy all non proliferation protocols, and would make the US and its security beholden to the nutters in Kiev. Even neo cons are not that stupid.
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Westphalian:

From a Ukrainian perspective it was a big mistake to denuclearise their military and an even bigger mistake to trust Russia to respect and protect Ukrainian sovereignty. It was also highly naive to think that Western powers would come to Ukraine's defence in the event of Russian aggression.

Since Russia unilaterally abrogated the Budapest Memoranda, the deal is null and void, and thus Ukraine is free to unilaterally reestablish a credible nuclear deterrent to ward off Russian aggression.

How much of Ukraine is a destroyed and uninhabitable greater Moscow metropolitan area worth to you, I wonder? Because if a state doesn't respect peace and the treaties it signs in order to maintain peace, then war is what it shall reap. Russia has suffered enough in the last century and should not be put through the nuclear ringer in this century. Mr. Putin should take that point to heart, because the seeds of the destruction of both Ukraine and Russia are being sewn in the trenches of the Donbas and watered in human blood. They will soon germinate and then this will not end well for either state.

Regretfully.
Evilroddy.

Indeed. I'm a bit surprised that Ukraine hasn't yet taken partisan warfare to Russia proper. But it may come. The Russian people need to feel the pains of war that Ukrainians are now enduring.
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Indeed. I'm a bit surprised that Ukraine hasn't yet taken partisan warfare to Russia proper. But it may come. The Russian people need to feel the pains of war that Ukrainians are now enduring.


For someone who feigns a great concern for Ukraine, you sure as heck prescribe courses of action that would be catastrophic for them.
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
For someone who feigns a great concern for Ukraine, you sure as heck prescribe courses of action that would be catastrophic for them.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Why should you be safe?
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Why should you be safe?


I've always said that the US is happy to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian, and you confirm it regularly.


I hope Kiev wakes up before its too late for them.
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
I hope the people of Russia wake up. But it's probably already too late.




Ukraine is poorly served by its hostility to Russia.


The US has no interest in a potentially world ending conflict with Russia.



The logic for Kiev is inescapable - elect a sensible moderate regime prepared to talk sensibly to the separatists and Moscow. Because nobody is going to save them if they get into a war with Russia.
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The logic for Kiev is inescapable - elect a sensible moderate regime prepared to talk sensibly to the separatists and Moscow.

This can't and won't happen until Crimea is returned and Russia removes its military from occupied Donbas.

No country would do less.
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
This can't and won't happen until Crimea is returned and Russia removes its military from occupied Donbas.

No country would do less.

Crimea is Russia - always has been apart from a brief accident of post Soviet break up, and always will be.

It's fine to sit in the US and advocate Ukrainian hostility to Russia for ever. But that's a stupid and selfish policy which causes huge harm to Ukrainians. Real people, real lives.

Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than with the US. Eventually the pro West oligarch puppets will be replaced. Just a question of how many Ukrainians have to die before it happens.
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Crimea is Russia - always has been apart from a brief accident of post Soviet break up, and always will be.

DlsR9SDXcAAmWAN.jpg



Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than with the US.

Lviv and Donetsk airports were both rebuilt for Euro 2012. Their fates mirror Ukraine's story. Lviv airport has become a symbol of Euro integration progress, while Donetsk airport is a monument to Putin's war.

DxGM6DkU0AY2ddM.jpg


Lviv Airport. A symbol of Ukraine-European integration.



resize_YrNH5sS3XDWJEcpeVLqo6vKfkiyuBG74_980x590.jpg


The devastated Donetsk Airport. A symbol of the ruinous shell that is Putin's Russia.
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
10,126
Reaction score
7,673
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Crimea is Russia - always has been apart from a brief accident of post Soviet break up, and always will be.

It's fine to sit in the US and advocate Ukrainian hostility to Russia for ever. But that's a stupid and selfish policy which causes huge harm to Ukrainians. Real people, real lives.

Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than with the US. Eventually the pro West oligarch puppets will be replaced. Just a question of how many Ukrainians have to die before it happens.

Westphalian:

Your statement about Crimea is factually wrong because Nikita Khrushchev transferred ownership of the oblast to the Ukrainian SSR in February of 1954 and made it sovereign Ukrainian territory. He alienated it from Russian control and ownership and this alienation was not done under duress or as the result of military action or threat. Therefore Russia and yourself have no legal leg to stand on when you claim ownership of that territory. Furthermore the UN, which the USSR/Russia were and are members of, made the acquisition of territory by military means illegal under international law in 1948 and the USSR supported that decision. So the seizure of Ukrainian Crimea by Russian special forces and the follow-on plebiscite to join Russia have no legal standing. Therefore Russia occupies Crimea but does not own it. Ownership is legally sanctioned and recognised possession and since the world community does not recognise Russia's claim to Crimea there is no legal ownership, just military occupation. According to international law and the UN Charter Mr. Putin and the senior Russian military leadership are now alleged war criminals and could be indicted and prosecuted for the military seizure of Crimea and the de facto invasion of the Donbas.

The only sensible course open to Russia and Ukraine is bilateral negotiations to settle this dispute. To continue down the military path will achieve nothing and will make Russia more of a pariah state in the eyes of the whole world including the Eurasian states you wish to align with. Ukraine aligned with Russia after the Civil War and again after WWII and then had a greedy Russia illegally seize and/or occupie its territory when Ukraine decided to take a policy detour from the Russian line. That lesson will not be lost on the Eurasian states of Central Asia nor on China if an alliance with Russia is being offered to Eurasia.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
109,279
Reaction score
27,293
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Westphalian:

Your statement about Crimea is factually wrong because Nikita Khrushchev transferred ownership of the oblast to the Ukrainian SSR in February of 1954 and made it sovereign Ukrainian territory. He alienated it from Russian control and ownership and this alienation was not done under duress or as the result of military action or threat. Therefore Russia and yourself have no legal leg to stand on when you claim ownership of that territory. Furthermore the UN, which the USSR/Russia were and are members of, made the acquisition of territory by military means illegal under international law in 1948 and the USSR supported that decision. So the seizure of Ukrainian Crimea by Russian special forces and the follow-on plebiscite to join Russia have no legal standing. Therefore Russia occupies Crimea but does not own it. Ownership is legally sanctioned and recognised possession and since the world community does not recognise Russia's claim to Crimea there is no legal ownership, just military occupation. According to international law and the UN Charter Mr. Putin and the senior Russian military leadership are now alleged war criminals and could be indicted and prosecuted for the military seizure of Crimea and the de facto invasion of the Donbas.

The only sensible course open to Russia and Ukraine is bilateral negotiations to settle this dispute. To continue down the military path will achieve nothing and will make Russia more of a pariah state in the eyes of the whole world including the Eurasian states you wish to align with. Ukraine aligned with Russia after the Civil War and again after WWII and then had a greedy Russia illegally seize and/or occupie its territory when Ukraine decided to take a policy detour from the Russian line. That lesson will not be lost on the Eurasian states of Central Asia nor on China if an alliance with Russia is being offered to Eurasia.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Well said.

May I quote the above any time Westphalian tries his excuses IRT Crimea?
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,496
Reaction score
66,467
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The only sensible course open to Russia and Ukraine is bilateral negotiations to settle this dispute.

The only items minimally negotiable consists of the timetables for Moscow to fully return Crimea to its rightful owner, and the withdrawal of all Russian officials, agents, soldiers, mercenaries, and military equipment from all areas of the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, and the return of 418 km of border to Ukraine's control.

Russia must also return to Ukraine all POWs and Ukrainian/Crimean civilian prisoners such as Oleg Sentsov etc. The illegal Crimea Bridge must be dismantled. Free maritime navigation of the Black Sea must be guaranteed, and maritime navigation in the mutually shared Sea of Azov will adhere to the Russia/Ukraine Kerch Strait/Sea of Azov Treaty of 2003. Russia will return all Ukraine boats/ships seized since February 2014. Crimean gas/oil fields in the Black Sea shall be returned to Ukraine sovereignty. Russia also owes Ukraine monetary compensation for 12,000+ deaths, 22,000+ injuries, 1.5 million displaced, 64,000 damaged/destroyed structures, and significant environmental damages in Donbas.
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
The only items minimally negotiable consists of the timetables for Moscow to fully return Crimea to its rightful owner, and the withdrawal of all Russian officials, agents, soldiers, mercenaries, and military equipment from all areas of the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, and the return of 418 km of border to Ukraine's control.

Russia must also return to Ukraine all POWs and Ukrainian/Crimean civilian prisoners such as Oleg Sentsov etc. The illegal Crimea Bridge must be dismantled. Free maritime navigation of the Black Sea must be guaranteed, and maritime navigation in the mutually shared Sea of Azov will adhere to the Russia/Ukraine Kerch Strait/Sea of Azov Treaty of 2003. Russia will return all Ukraine boats/ships seized since February 2014. Crimean gas/oil fields in the Black Sea shall be returned to Ukraine sovereignty. Russia also owes Ukraine monetary compensation for 12,000+ deaths, 22,000+ injuries, 1.5 million displaced, 64,000 damaged/destroyed structures, and significant environmental damages in Donbas.


:lamo:lamo

Having agreed with ER about negotiations, you then proceed to contradict yourself by listing everything Russia must do, having noted that only the timetable surrounding Russia's humiliating capitulation is 'minimally negotiable'.

Typically American, you have absolutely no idea about negotiations or diplomacy.


Consequently no such event will ever happen.
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
10,126
Reaction score
7,673
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Well said.

May I quote the above any time Westphalian tries his excuses IRT Crimea?

Fledermaus:

Sure, if you want, but I'm hardly a suitable citation authority. Google "Crimea Ukraine Khrushchev" and you will find many better citations than my off-the-cuff rebuttal of Westphalian's claim.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 

Westphalian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2018
Messages
2,647
Reaction score
286
Location
East
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Fledermaus:

Sure, if you want, but I'm hardly a suitable citation authority. Google "Crimea Ukraine Khrushchev" and you will find many better citations than my off-the-cuff rebuttal of Westphalian's claim.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.


It wasn't actually a rebuttal at all.


The Ukrainian SSR was part of the Soviet Union, a state run essentially by Russia. Why you omitted this salient fact is something only you can answer.
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugilistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
10,126
Reaction score
7,673
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
The only items minimally negotiable consists of the timetables for Moscow to fully return Crimea to its rightful owner, and the withdrawal of all Russian officials, agents, soldiers, mercenaries, and military equipment from all areas of the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, and the return of 418 km of border to Ukraine's control.

Russia must also return to Ukraine all POWs and Ukrainian/Crimean civilian prisoners such as Oleg Sentsov etc. The illegal Crimea Bridge must be dismantled. Free maritime navigation of the Black Sea must be guaranteed, and maritime navigation in the mutually shared Sea of Azov will adhere to the Russia/Ukraine Kerch Strait/Sea of Azov Treaty of 2003. Russia will return all Ukraine boats/ships seized since February 2014. Crimean gas/oil fields in the Black Sea shall be returned to Ukraine sovereignty. Russia also owes Ukraine monetary compensation for 12,000+ deaths, 22,000+ injuries, 1.5 million displaced, 64,000 damaged/destroyed structures, and significant environmental damages in Donbas.

Rogue Yvalley:

The terms of a negotiated peace will be determined by the two states in the bilateral agreement. Getting the talks started is more important than listing demands before any negotiation starts. It may very well be the case that Ukrainian negotiators finally opt to cede Crimea back to Russia as part of a peace deal. That is a matter to be determined by Ukrainian and Russian negotiators and statesmen/women. Third-party positions are only tangentially relevant. But in order to level the negotiation table, Ukraine needs to be as dangerous to Russia as Russia is dangerous to Ukraine. Thus the possibility of Ukrainian nuclear rearmament is a necessity if Russia stonewalls or tries to further bully Ukraine with threats of or real military force.

As Westphalian will no doubt object, citing the issue of nuclear proliferation, I will proactively point out that Ukraine was a nuclear-armed state and thus Ukraine rearming itself with nuclear weapons is not proliferation but a return to the pre-Budapest Memoranda status it held before the deal was struck. Since Russia made the deal null and void with its military seizure of Crimea and its military interference in the Donbas, Ukraine is no longer bound by the terms of the memoranda and is free to rearm legally. If Russia interferes with Ukraine's defensive nuclear rearmament by overt military or covert military means then that unmasks Russia as a clear and present danger to regional and world peace; which will trigger a massive political and military realignment by Europe, North America and hopefully a prudent Eurasia to a much more confrontational pre-war footing which could easily escalate to open conflict and even thermonuclear war. Westphalian will no doubt ask, "Is Ukraine worth such a risk to world peace?" The honest answer is no. But shutting down the growing Russian reliance on militarism and disruptive hybrid-warfare is worth the risk, as is shutting down the Western reliance on militarism. But the West is second on the list because right now Russia is pushing too hard and too fast. When that's sorted then the focus shifts to Washington, London and Paris and then finally to Beijing, Taipei, and Tokyo.

The time for allowing war is past. Now it's ultimately world peace or global oblivion as the final binary choice. The new enemy is war itself and the men and women who promote it and supply it with flesh, technology, arms and munitions.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom