I take it that you are agnostic, I apologize if I am incorrect. Some times nonbelievers are treated very poorly by Christians, I understand your frustration. But something Christians need to remember is that nonbelievers are (IMO) every bit as deserving of love and hospitality as any other believer. But I don't feel the need to flex spiritual muscles. I know anything I can say will never make you believe in something that you don't believe in. But I would prefer nonbelievers walk away not resenting me. I would rather hear, "those Christian folks are good people". Sadly some give us a bad name.
I don't know why people are so insistent on forcing beliefs on each other. we can get along, we should get along. I find it disturbing that a self proclaimed atheist has more Christ like personality than those that claim to be Christian.
You seem like a good fellow, and much like the Christians and Muslims I get along with (don't know any practising Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists). Regardless, I must confess that I do feel animosity towards most organized belief systems. IMO, all that is good about religion can be found without it, but it's only through religion that a good person can commit evil. I believe that religion, however well-intentioned, is thought-poison -- mitigated only be the advancement of society.
I will have to disagree with you on your last two statements, especially the bolded one. There is evil in the world that even most atheist and agnostics recognize. Hitler, Capone, hell most drug lords for that matter, not to mention those who do their bidding. One does not have to cite a religious based reason to commit acts of evil.
Re-read what I said. Would you say that Hitler and Capone were good people who did bad things, or simply bad people?
I'm only aware of three.
1. THe Literal, Historical & Grammatical method (primarily protestant),
I simply use the first like most other protestants.
How is your ancient Greek, classical Hebrew and Aramaic grammar?
I don't come to these in-house Christian threads very often, but it's interesting, especially with the Unitarian/Trinitarian element. I always thought the Christian v. Atheist debates got testy, but this one's extraordinary. I can't imagine two Buddhists from totally different lines and schools laying into one another like this. Illuminating!
My hunch is that if you're speculating and sitting in judgement of your brothers and sisters, you're probably not getting it anymore than they are.
Maybe we should ask Richard Dawkins.
I do try to keep it interesting. So glad you can enjoy.
Enjoyment didn't really come into it. However, interesting it certainly is.
It's a tough crowd. I do what I can.
So anyway...back to the original idea...
As both the Old & New Testament's make it clear that Christ is God, how can anyone consider themselves a "Christian" if they can't or won't believe that Christ is God. After all, without the deity of Christ being a "Christian" is rather meaningless, no?
I think you'll struggle to find any Buddhists who think Gautama was God. Gautama made it pretty clear when asked if he was a god. He said, "No".Buddhists don't all believe that Siddhartha Guatama was God.
Show me book, chapter and verse where what you are saying is required for being saved.
I'm only aware of three.
1. THe Literal, Historical & Grammatical method (primarily protestant),
2. The Allegorical Methohd (primarily Catholic), and
3. Whatever the frick' cultist do.
I simply use the first like most other protestants.
Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.
It would seem that no less than Christ, Himself, disagrees with you.
So anyway...back to the original idea...
As both the Old & New Testament's make it clear that Christ is God, how can anyone consider themselves a "Christian" if they can't or won't believe that Christ is God. After all, without the deity of Christ being a "Christian" is rather meaningless, no?
Most protestands don't believe in 6 day creationism ....
Funny I thought salvation came from grace alone, and not works ....
Nonsense. I refer everyone to http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/148166-discussion-blackdog-divinity-christ.html.
The Old Testament NEVER says the massiah will be God, and the NT doesn't say that Jesus is the same as God.
Infact most first century and second century christians didn't believe in that Jesus was God. None of the early jewish christian sects did, and neither did any of the synoptic gospel writers, Paul didn't, one can argue that the writer of John did, but I can, and have demonstrated that he didn't.
Also it isn't meaningless to be a christian without believing christ is God ... Only in your theology.
Please provide the evidence to support this spurious comment.
Oh, I agree.
I invite everyone to read this, as well. It’s a wonderful example of you being completely, utterly, shamelessly and amazingly wrong.
Well, of course not! Not when you ignore all the verses that do make those claims of deity.
Actually, it was the early Christians--the Apostles themselves--that taught that Christ was God and that would include the authors of all the Gospels…unless, of course, you don’t believe in the Bible.
In your theology, even I can be the Christ (which, of course, I can’t. Just another example of how you are wrong).
Then you're quoting Matthew 7:21-23, to say that christ will reject those who PRACTICE lawlessness?
We'll have to let people decide, wanna have a formal debate (on the truedebate subforum) on whether or not Jesus of Nazareth is YWHH?
Including ALL the verses, it never says Jesus is Yahweh, he is the SON of God, and the massiah, and he was begoten, and subject to God. But if you'd like we can have that debate again.
No, they didn't, not if you actually read what they taught.
No, in my theology you can't, because you were born into sin, I made that clear many times.
I’m not quoting anything. I’m simply agreeing with you that salvation is through grace alone and not works.
It’s “YHWH”. I’ve ignored all of your other many misspellings but you could try to get that one right.
And, no, I’m not interested in a “true debate” with you. It would simply be more of the “pick and choose” which verses to give credence, more ignoring my points and the Scriptures I’ve given and more making up the most bizarre interpretations of biblical text.
Even if there was a verse that said, “Jesus is YHWH” you still wouldn’t accept it based on the undeniable fact that in light of all the Scriptures that say that Jesus is God you still don’t believe it.
And only God can forgive sin which is exactly what Jesus did.
Jesus recieves authority from God ... the scriptures say that OVER AND OVER again.
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