ludin;1063740573 :doh not a lie the total funding was 700B they spent about half of it. the majority of that was suppose to go to shovel ready projects that weren't shovel ready. the ones that supposedly were they spent millions of dollars per job that once the job was done the people were fired if the project got off the ground at all. It had nothing to do with being large enough as it did the states got the money and sured up their lack of funding with the money. IE the money wasn't used for the projects. [url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/01/the-reason-that-shovel-ready-stimulus-didnt-work-is-that-there-wasnt-any-stimulus/ said:The Reason That Shovel Ready Stimulus Didn't Work Is That There Wasn't Any Stimulus - Forbes[/url]
The fact still remains that we did the whole infrastructure non-sense will make jobs non-sense it was a failure.
the reason the so called stimulus didn't work is because of this right here.
Ron Hart: Where did the stimulus money go? - The Orange County Register
Where did stimulus money really go? | Fox News
the stimulus didn't do anything because it was a huge payoff to obama lackies.
[/QUOTE]Absolute lie.
The total amount of infrastructure spending in the ARRA was $111B, and it along with the rest of the TAX CUTS, State/Local fiscal relief, et al, had a multiplier greater than 1 making it successful. It was not large enough nor sustained long enough to turn around a $15TRILLION economy.
Yes, there is credence in the model. The model is just part of a bigger picture of what Multi-Cultural Internationalists (MCIs, the rulers on the left) and Corporate Global Expansionists (CGEs, the rulers on the right) have caused and are continuing to cause unabated in their strange-bedfellows partnership that harms American citizens in the name of misguided ideology and profits-at-any-price respectively.Questions for Debate:
Is there any credence to this model?
Can it be countered or stopped? How?
When the American common people are force to default on personal debt en-masse, doesn't it follow that the American Government will also have to default as well?
Does the solution lie in Government Action, or in the Private Sector, or Both?
Is it to late?
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In response to the portion above in bold, and not the rest of the diatribe, the U.S. apart from "clearly" pushing for default, America has no intention of defaulting at all. In fact, no sovereign nation with its own currency ever has to default. One can always monetize the debt buy paying off the debt with newly minted currency. But in the current case, U.S. debt is quite sustainable.Yes, there is credence in the model. The model is just part of a bigger picture of what Multi-Cultural Internationalists (MCIs, the rulers on the left) and Corporate Global Expansionists (CGEs, the rulers on the right) have caused and are continuing to cause unabated in their strange-bedfellows partnership that harms American citizens in the name of misguided ideology and profits-at-any-price respectively.
Short of major nationalism in America to fuel incentive to create policies that favor Americans, no, there's nothing that can be done to stop or counter what MCIs and CGEs have been doing via their so-called "global economy": the exporting of American living-wage jobs to third-world nations and thereby importing third-world poverty to Americans, third-world poverty that the rising debt is only and unsuccessfully temporarily functioning to camouflage.
With regard to the debt-default dominoes, yes, clearly, America itself will be pushed closer to default on a number of debt items as a result.
The foundation of the solution lies in neither government or private sector action, but first must manifest in we the people becoming aware of the damage the MCI and CGE policies are doing to Americans and that we are all one big family, a family of Americans, both rich and poor alike, and that the vast majority of us All are going to suffer tremendously if the problem isn't solved. We The People of the United States of America -- its Citizens -- must recognize that we are indeed One, that liberty and justice For All Americans hinges in the balance of solving this potentially country-killing problem. Only then can We The People en masse compel both government and private sector changes necessary to what is tantamount to saving our country from inevitable one-world-government annexation.
It's not too late .. but it's nearing being too late. The more American citizens are brought down by this increasing burden the less energy, self-esteem and hope they will have that their own political action will be of positive value in solving the problem. And, since the solution to the problem is centrist in nature, because we have only two parties with power, the liberal Democrats and the conservative Republicans, there is no centrist solution policies/candidates that will arise from them, and all that will happen from this politics-as-usual dualism is a continuing division of Americans against each other in so many and irrelevant ways that render us powerless as a unit instead of the bringing of us all together as One United Force that we need right now.
The solution lies in creating and marketing a centrist political party .. and fast.
See my signature.
Everything I posted in my previous post here is true -- everything.In response to the portion above in bold, and not the rest of the diatribe, the U.S. apart from "clearly" pushing for default, America has no intention of defaulting at all. In fact, no sovereign nation with its own currency ever has to default. One can always monetize the debt buy paying off the debt with newly minted currency. But in the current case, U.S. debt is quite sustainable. We already have a centrist party, it's called the Democratic Party.
Re-asserting that you are right is not debate.Everything I posted in my previous post here is true -- everything.
I realize that you liberals don't like to hear that your clearly liberal, not centrist Democrat party is partially responsible for the problem, and that you thus have a tendency to deny that there is a problem at all.
But in so doing you do harm to your fellow Americans.
It's time to put partisan politics-as-usual aside.
I strongly suggest that all those with "liberal" and "conservative" listed as their lean in the margin to the left of their posts lay down their ideological cudgels and start finding common ground to create a One Unit centrist force to solve this dire threat to All Americans.
Your post is part obvious projection (your first three sentences) and part meaningless digression via esoterically presented erroneous data (the rest of it).re-asserting that you are right is not debate.
The fact that you call yourself a "centrist" does not make you one. You give yourself away as a right-winger when you consider the current Democratic Party "liberal." As the graph below shows, Northern Democrats are about as liberal as they were in the 1970s but Republicans are FAR more conservative than they have historically been. I factor out Southern Democrats because they moved to the R Party.)
Source: Political Polarization
Your post is part obvious projection (your first three sentences) and part meaningless digression via esoterically presented erroneous data (the rest of it).
A word to the wise: if you care about your fellow Americans, don't let your liberal left-winger or conservative right-winger ideology continue to create division among Americans.
Find a way to transcend your polarized ideology and its polemic paradigm.
Then move to the center, the center, where you recognize the problems created by both the Democrats and the Republicans, the Multi-Cultural Internationalists and the Corporate Global Expansionists respectively, who are making life so painful for so many of your fellow Americans.
:roll:That's the centrist cop-out. Last year, the Republicans shut down the government. A few years ago, they created a crisis over the debt ceiling that resulted in the government getting its bond rating lowered. This action by Republicans was taking America hostage, threatening to undermine the economy and disrupt the essential business of government unless they get policy concessions they would never have been able to enact through legislation. And Democrats, who would have been justified in rejecting this extortion altogether, had gone a long way toward meeting those Republican demands.
While you try to preach as there is equivalence on both sides -- equally wrong and equally at fault on any issue, never mind the facts, there is not equivalence.
Let me remind you that this thread is about debt, which the OP characterizes as a crisis, when economists say it is not a crisis.
In response to the portion above in bold, and not the rest of the diatribe, the U.S. apart from "clearly" pushing for default, America has no intention of defaulting at all. In fact, no sovereign nation with its own currency ever has to default. One can always monetize the debt buy paying off the debt with newly minted currency. But in the current case, U.S. debt is quite sustainable.
We already have a centrist party, it's called the Democratic Party.
Oh wow.....
Is Japan going to " default " on its debt ?
No, they can simply print currency to the point of wiping out the savings of every Japanese citizen while their economy crashes and burns.
Believe it or not, there are REAL consequences to massive deficit spending for the purpose of fiscal stimulus.
The middle class and the poor are the one's that have to suffer the consequences of these STUPID Liberal economic policies.
You post is pretty much contrary to macro economics. When the economy is weak from too little demand, it is not only appropriate for government to use fiscal stimulus to boost demand but it is advisable. When these conditions exist, even the Broken Window Fallacy is not a fallacy.
Go ahead, please tell us the consequences to the middle class and the poor due to "massive deficit spending?" Much of that "massive deficit spending" was on extending unemployment insurance; Medicaid; and Food Stamps -- areas that the middle class and the poor needed during the economic downturn. Conservatives would have slashed these expenditures (and Republicans even did hold up extending unemployment until Obama extended the Bush tax-cuts for upper-income taxpayers -- so we know where conservatives truly stand, and it's not with the middle class and the poor.)
Conservatives were telling us that this "massive deficit spending" would bring us high interest rates, inflation and debase the currency -- none of which have materialized. Meanwhile, the middle class and the poor received benefits that would have been slashed by conservative ideologues.
That's plainly wrong. Not only was the headline dollar figure of the ARRA distributed and spent in it's entirety, the portion of the ARRA devoted to infrastructure (too small a portion) and the bill as a whole was overly successful according to the broad majority of credible analysis.Problem is the money would never be spent. If you recall, we had this sort of idea with the stimulus package, and that went no where.
The health of the labor market has seen a rather dramatic turnaround since its implementation, alongside many other key economic indicators. To suggest otherwise is a sign of denial or misinformation.What does? The fact that unemployment is still crap (along with the rest of the economy
Several thoughts come to mind after reading the above post. 1) It represents economic illiteracy. (e.g. "Each additional dollar of National Debt reduces the economic activity in the country by several dollars, and it even worse when many of those "stimulus" dollars are going to China.") 2) It makes wild assertions (example: "Having the Government pick and chose activities by radical environmental or ethnocentric ideals is a recipe for getting 0.10 worth of benefit for the dollar at best!") which have nothing to do with Keynesian thought and uses figures clearly plucked from the air. 3) I can't understand why you even bothered to include two Wikipedia links that do not support the wild opinions in the post.Macro Economic is just a hidden code word for the same old completely discredited Keynesian economics, it didn't work during the fool John Maynard Keynes lifetime, and its not working in it replay since 2008.
John Maynard Keynes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Keynesian economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Keynes was a self-serving, self-aggrandized idiot who destroyed the lives of 100s of Million of everyday common people.
We do need spending, but not the inefficiency of Government Chosen Largess. We need to get freaken Government out of the way of the markets to allow investors to research and choose what economic activities will make money, which in turn will help everyone.
Having the Government pick and chose activities by radical environmental or ethnocentric ideals is a recipe for getting 0.10 worth of benefit for the dollar at best!
Worse, we are loaded to near junk bond status in National Debt, each new stimulus dollar we spend, pushes further into the realm that no one wants anything to do with the country; trade, advancing credit, education (why spend big bucks to go to school to learn from stupids), research and investment.
Each additional dollar of National Debt reduces the economic activity in the country by several dollars, and it even worse when many of those "stimulus" dollars are going to China.
There is not substitute for massive Industry! None!
Get over it and get to work!
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Here, here. You are presenting a position that is remarkable. Conservatives were previously arguing that raising the money stock would be inflationary and, therefore, the QE program was a failure because it will cause high inflation. Now, since QE did not cause high inflation, you make the exact opposite argument -- QE is a failure because it did not cause inflation.Thanks to unprecedented Monetary Stimulus Obama's massive amount of new debt is relatively cheap, for now.
Its not difficult to understand the REAL motivations behind the FEDs perpetual pumping
The lack of inflation is a direct indication of the failure of QE, as it was sold as a way to ward off " de-flation " as all this liquidity made it out into the economy.
Well over 84 percent of all that liquidity is sitting on the FEDs books as " excess reserves "
And the Middle Class is shrinking and is turning into the poor under Obama.
That means they're qualifying for " benefits " that they wouldn't have needed had a competent leader been elected.
Why you think thats worth bragging about is beyond me.
I say we solve two problems at once and force all able bodied welfare recipients to work for their benefits on infrastructure renovation jobs. The New Deal would come full circle with the roads and bridges built by the welfare recipients of the Great Depression being fixed by the welfare recipients of the Great Recession. PROGRESS!!
There are problems with your simplistic solution. The first, is that there are three people looking for each job opening. The second, is that your view of "welfare" is a throughback to the 1970s. In 1996, the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, was passed, which reduced aid to the poor and reformed your notion of welfare. You can read all about it here: Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediajmotivator said:I say we solve two problems at once and force all able bodied welfare recipients to work for their benefits on infrastructure renovation jobs. The New Deal would come full circle with the roads and bridges built by the welfare recipients of the Great Depression being fixed by the welfare recipients of the Great Recession. PROGRESS!!
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We already have a centrist party, it's called the Democratic Party.
There are problems with your simplistic solution. The first, is that there are three people looking for each job opening. The second, is that your view of "welfare" is a throughback to the 1970s. In 1996, the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, was passed, which reduced aid to the poor and reformed your notion of welfare. You can read all about it here: Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However, what I don't understand is contradictory reasoning. Conservatives are arguing that the stimulus "didn't do anything" and government doesn't create jobs -- but the argument that I am now reading now is that they want a new WPA program to build roads and bridges. Well, we don't need such a program. Roads and bridges are now mainly built by private contractors, who have expertise in these types of projects. If the government wants to spend money to build a road, they need not use "welfare recipients." They let a contract and private companies hire workers. If demand for roads and other projects is great enough, unemployed workers apply for those jobs.
Several thoughts come to mind after reading the above post. 1) It represents economic illiteracy. (e.g. "Each additional dollar of National Debt reduces the economic activity in the country by several dollars, and it even worse when many of those "stimulus" dollars are going to China.") 2) It makes wild assertions (example: "Having the Government pick and chose activities by radical environmental or ethnocentric ideals is a recipe for getting 0.10 worth of benefit for the dollar at best!") which have nothing to do with Keynesian thought and uses figures clearly plucked from the air. 3) I can't understand why you even bothered to include two Wikipedia links that do not support the wild opinions in the post.
...
Economics out of favour 1979–2007
Keynesian economics were officially discarded by the British Government in 1979, but forces had begun to gather against Keynes's ideas over 30 years earlier. Friedrich Hayek had formed the Mont Pelerin Society in 1947, with the explicit intention of nurturing intellectual currents to one day displace Keynesianism and other similar influences. Its members included Austrian School economist Ludwig von Mises along with the then young Milton Friedman. Initially the society had little impact on the wider world – Hayek was to say it was as if Keynes had been raised to sainthood after his death and that people refused to allow his work to be questioned.[64][65] Friedman however began to emerge as a formidable critic of Keynesian economics from the mid-1950s, and especially after his 1963 publication of A Monetary History of the United States.
On the practical side of economic life, big government had appeared to be firmly entrenched in the 1950s but the balance began to shift towards private power in the 1960s. Keynes had written against the folly of allowing "decadent and selfish" speculators and financiers the kind of influence they had enjoyed after World War I. For two decades after World War II public opinion was strongly against private speculators, the disparaging label Gnomes of Zürich being typical of how they were described during this period. International speculation was severely restricted by the capital controls in place after Bretton Woods. Journalists Larry Elliott and Dan Atkinson say 1968 was a pivotal year when power shifted in the favour of private agents such as currency speculators. They pick out a key 1968 event as being when America suspended the conversion of the dollar into gold except on request of foreign governments,...
Criticisms
Public choice theory
James M. Buchanan and Richard E. Wagner, in Democracy in Deficit: The Political Legacy of Lord Keynes[31] criticized Keynesian economics on the grounds that governments would in practice be unlikely to implement theoretically optimal policies. According to them, the implicit assumption underlying the Keynesian fiscal revolution was that economic policy would be made by wise men, acting without regard to political pressures or opportunities, and guided by disinterested economic technocrats. They argued that this was an unrealistic assumption about political, bureaucratic and electoral behavior.
New Classical Macroeconomics criticisms
See also: Lucas critique
Another influential school of thought was based on the Lucas critique of Keynesian economics. This called for greater consistency with microeconomic theory and rationality, and in particular emphasized the idea of rational expectations. Lucas and others argued that Keynesian economics required remarkably foolish and short-sighted behavior from people, which totally contradicted the economic understanding of their behavior at a micro level. New classical economics introduced a set of macroeconomic theories that were based on optimising microeconomic behavior. These models have been developed into the Real Business Cycle Theory, which argues that business cycle fluctuations can to a large extent be accounted for by real (in contrast to nominal) shocks.
Beginning in the late 1950s new classical macroeconomists began to disagree with the methodology employed by Keynes and his successors. Keynesians emphasized the dependence of consumption on disposable income and, also, of investment on current profits and current cash flow. In addition, Keynesians posited a Phillips curve that tied nominal wage inflation to unemployment rate. To support these theories, Keynesians typically traced the logical foundations of their model (using introspection) and supported their assumptions with statistical evidence.[32] New classical theorists demanded that macroeconomics be grounded on the same foundations as microeconomic theory, profit-maximizing firms and rational, utility-maximizing consumers.
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Apart from proof of being discredited, you only have shown that economists disagree -- hardly a stop the presses moment. Moreover, James Buchanan and Richard Wagner are hardly the final word in economics. Other economists, such as Krugman, Stiglitz and Romer -- as well as Janet Yellen, Ben Bernanke and many others affirm Keynesian thought....
If you had read them, you would have seen that the basic theorems of Keynesian economics were discredited and abandoned by 1979 and replaced by other economic theories, and did not come back into any form of use until 2008, and the disastrous economics of the Obama Administration.
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Yes, we know Obama lied about " shovel ready " jobs.
We would have to be pretty stupid to trust that guy again.
Who knows, he might even try to restart his failed "green jobs " initiative again
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