The Bible contradicts itself when David's son dies because of David's sin

spud_meister said:

No. God murdered David's son as a punishment for Davids sin, not an absolution. Also, like all tyrants, God doesn't apply His rules to Himself.

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Valery said:

Is this not a contradiction?

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Questions From Readers

▪ After David and Bath-sheba sinned, why did their son have to die, since Deuteronomy 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:20 say that a son is not to die for his father’s error?

David and Bath-sheba were both married persons when they committed adultery and she became pregnant. Their adultery was a grave sin punishable by death under God’s law. (2 Samuel 11:1-5; Deuteronomy 5:18; 22:22) So if God had permitted them to be dealt with by humans under the Law, the son developing in her womb would have died with its mother. But Jehovah chose to handle their case differently, which “the Judge of all the earth” certainly had a right to do.​—Genesis 18:25.

When confronted with his guilt, David acknowledged: “I have sinned against Jehovah.” Then God’s spokesman told David: “Jehovah, in turn, does let your sin pass by. You will not die.” (2 Samuel 12:13) David was shown mercy because of the Kingdom covenant. Moreover, since God is able to read hearts, he must have evaluated the genuineness of David’s repentance and concluded that there was a basis for extending mercy to David and Bath-sheba. Yet they would not escape all the deserts of their error. They were told: “Notwithstanding this, because you have unquestionably treated Jehovah with disrespect by this thing, also the son himself, just born to you, will positively die.”​—2 Samuel 12:14.

God ‘dealt a blow’ involving their child to whom they were not entitled; the boy became sick and died. A person today might tend to focus on the child’s death and feel that a harsh judgment was executed. However, it is good to bear in mind that had the adultery been handled by and proved before human judges under the Law, all three (David, Bath-sheba, and the son in her womb) would have lost their lives. Viewed in that light, God’s permitting two of them to survive was merciful. Furthermore, at this late date we do not have all the facts, such as information about the health of the infant immediately after birth. We can, nonetheless, accept God’s handling of the matter, confident that what he did was impartial, wise, and righteous. Even David later acknowledged: “As for the true God, perfect is his way.”​—2 Samuel 22:31; compare Job 34:12; Isaiah 55:11.

That is consistent with David’s reaction after he heard God’s judgment. While the child was sick, David grieved and fasted. But once death occurred, David appreciated that the matter had ended. (2 Samuel 12:22, 23) So, trusting God’s judgment, David proceeded to comfort Bath-sheba (now his legal wife), assuring her that their marriage relationship would continue. Later Solomon was born to them and became David’s successor.

God’s handling of that case need not be viewed as conflicting with Deuteronomy 24:16 or Ezekiel 18:20.

As part of the Law, God directed: “Fathers should not be put to death on account of children, and children should not be put to death on account of fathers. Each one should be put to death for his own sin.” (Deuteronomy 24:16) Those guidelines were for Israelite judges handling legal cases. The judges could not read hearts. They were to deal with each man on the basis of his own conduct as established by the facts.

Similarly, Ezekiel 18:20 observes: “A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be.” This was primarily referring to adults. The context speaks of a son who witnessed his father’s wickedness but refused to share in it; instead, the son carried out Jehovah’s judicial decisions and walked in His statutes. Such a son would be preserved when his father died.​—Ezekiel 18:14-17.

It is undeniable, though, that children can suffer consequences because of their parents’ actions. Parents who are wasteful or foolish may bring poverty on the whole family. Or imagine the effect on children if a parent is sentenced to prison for criminal activity. Even calamities that God justly brought on Israel for their wickedness affected the children of the time. (Deuteronomy 28:15, 20-32; Ezekiel 8:6-18; 9:5-10) Conversely, God urged his people: “You must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days.”​—Deuteronomy 30:19, 20.

Hence, the experience of David and Bath-sheba should emphasize to parents that their conduct can greatly affect their children. If parents ‘are in fear of God’s name, the sun of righteousness can shine forth’ to the blessing of the entire family.​—Malachi 4:2.

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Elvira said:

There is a valid reason for this exception to the rule...it had a specific purpose...

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Valery said:

That's neither an explanation nor a reason any further than, God knew the right thing to do.

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Valery said:

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

2 Samuel
12:9 "Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites."
12:10 "Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'"
12:11 ""This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."
12:12 "You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.'"
12:13 "Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die."
12:14 "But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the LORD, the son born to you will die.""
12:15 "After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill."
12:18 "On the seventh day the child died. David's attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, he wouldn't listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.""

Is this not a contradiction?

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Valery said:

That's the contradiction. "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."
whether you think of it as punishment or as an absolution, the child died for David's sin.

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Valery said:

That's the contradiction.

"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

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tosca1 said:

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."


This is a Mosaic Law.

Perhaps, it is also as simple as it is:

In that law - you don't condemn a child to death for the crime of his father, and vice versa.
If a person who's guilty of a crime is not available to receive that punishment - it is the law that you don't punish anyone in his stead.



In our society right now, do we put the father to jail for the crime committed by his son, or vice versa?


It is not a contradiction.

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tosca1 said:

WHO DOESN'T SIN?

Physical death is a natural process we all go through.
We don't all die old - are we to assume those who died young died because of being punished by God?
Children die. Surely, a lot of them have not sinned. So.....how can it be punishment?

Which particular death is a punishment?




Clearly, there is more to that verse than how it is simply stated.


God may be referring to the final judgment in that verse.

He could be referring to the second death.

We are accountable for our own sins when we face God on that day.


It is not a contradiction.

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Valery said:

So you are saying this commentary is wrong:
"The child also that is born.--The death of a little infant in the harem of a great Oriental monarch might seem of small significance, and but a light punishment; David, however, saw it in its true light--as an evidence of God's unalterable purpose, and a sign of the greater judgments that must come upon him. The people also, no doubt, saw and felt the appropriateness of this punishment."
2 Samuel 12:14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD, the son born to you will surely die."

And this: "Although David was forgiven, yet since his sin had brought great scandal on the church, it was necessary that he should suffer publicly the consequences of that sin. We can see that this was especially important in David's case, both for the vindication of God's justice, and to destroy the hope that other sins also might go unpunished;(...) "

And this: "But the death of the adulterous offspring of David and Bathsheba would prove to these irreligious men that Jehovah's righteous rule could reach and punish the king himself, and would thus vindicate his justice from their reproach"

And that this translation is just terribly misleading:
12:14 "But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the LORD, the son born to you will die.""

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And that this translation is just terribly misleading:

12:14 "But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the LORD, the son born to you will die.""

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tosca1 said:

Read again what I've explained in two or three posts.




What is a "commentary?" It's an explanation - that depends on someone's own understanding or interpretation, right?




Something is not right about this quoted statement you gave:

And this: "But the death of the adulterous offspring of David and Bathsheba would prove to these irreligious men that Jehovah's righteous rule could reach and punish the king himself, and would thus vindicate his justice from their reproach"



Who committed adultery? The baby? :lol:







It supports my explanation about it: From God's perspective, He was not punishing the offspring. He was punishing David.

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Valery said:

Right, but he was killing the baby — apparently in place of the parents,

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there were about 734 Old Testament commandments in the law, including the 10 commandments.
The law covered theological practices, health and dietary, social practices and criminal laws, ceremonial, and others.

Why was the Mosaic Law given?

The first thing we see is that the Law was given to the Israelites.
In addition to providing guidance and direction, it served several purposes:


CONCLUSION
Many Christians, along with others, incorporate the Mosaic Law in their beliefs and practice. This law keeping has a direct connection to the Old Testament. The Mosaic Law was given to Moses by God at Mt. Sinai and is known as The Law.
Because it was known as the Mosaic Law, a tendency to interpret it and give it stretched meaning often became problematic.

Read more: What is the Mosaic Law: A Christian Study

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......when usually they would simply kill both man, woman and child so long as the woman has not gone into labor.

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tosca1 said:

I've already explained. Go back and read again.

You're hinging your argument on this Mosaic Law that you quoted:


Deuteronomy 24:16
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."



Those are laws specifically for Jews!



Read more: What is the Mosaic Law: A Christian Study



You are stretching the meaning of Deut 24:16. Refer to post #11.

Furthermore........God is not bound by that law.












EH EH EH?

What on earth are you on about?

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Valery said:

David lived before Jesus.
"A few other Talmudic texts shed some light on the opinions concerning abortion. Arakhin 1:7 demands that a pregnant woman who happens to be liable to capital punishment for some transgression be executed prior to giving birth unless she has begun to give birth (yashvah al ha-mashber). This term generally refers to the pushing stage of labor, not the early stages of contractions. The mode of execution guarantees that the fetus is killed in utero before the mother, i.e. the first stone is dropped on her abdominal area. However, if she has begun to deliver the fetus, the woman is permitted to complete the birth before her execution. This text certainly demonstrates that prior to a late stage in labor the fetus is considered part of the mother."
Abortion | Jewish Women's Archive

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Valery said:

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

2 Samuel
12:9 "Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites."
12:10 "Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'"
12:11 ""This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."
12:12 "You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.'"
12:13 "Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die."
12:14 "But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the LORD, the son born to you will die.""
12:15 "After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill."
12:18 "On the seventh day the child died. David's attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, he wouldn't listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.""

Is this not a contradiction?

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Are children punished for the sins of their parents?

Another consideration is that the warning of Exodus 20:5 was part of the Mosaic Law governing Israel in the Old Testament.
The generational curse should be seen as a collective punishment on the nation, not as a personal curse on individual families.

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Valery said:

David lived before Jesus.
"A few other Talmudic texts shed some light on the opinions concerning abortion. Arakhin 1:7 demands that a pregnant woman who happens to be liable to capital punishment for some transgression be executed prior to giving birth unless she has begun to give birth (yashvah al ha-mashber). This term generally refers to the pushing stage of labor, not the early stages of contractions. The mode of execution guarantees that the fetus is killed in utero before the mother, i.e. the first stone is dropped on her abdominal area. However, if she has begun to deliver the fetus, the woman is permitted to complete the birth before her execution. This text certainly demonstrates that prior to a late stage in labor the fetus is considered part of the mother."
Abortion | Jewish Women's Archive

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The infrequently used word ason (misfortune, accident), which according to most rabbinic texts refers to the death of the mother, was translated by the Septuagint as referring to the fetus and its stage of development. That is, if the fetus had reached a certain stage of development of identifiable human formation, the attacker was liable for its death.

This difference reflects the two opposing schools of Greek philosophy:

the Academy, represented by Plato/Aristotle, who held that human status obtained at fetal formation,

and the Stoics, who held that ]the fetus is dependent on the mother.



The Septuagint translation was the beginning of the separate approaches on the topic of abortion of Judaism and Christianity (which later set quickening, i.e. fetal movement, as the criterion for sufficient formation and still later equated conception with formation).

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tosca1 said:

Lol. Not so fast!


You neglected to add this part:



Abortion | Jewish Women's Archive



Let's not try to dish out fake information. especially so when a life is at stake.

Just so to be clear - the given article is not a Scriptural authority on the issue of abortion.

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tosca1 said:

Bottom line: you're quoting a Mosaic Law that's been given specifically to the Jews. It's their justice system - much the same like our society has our own justice system! It's spelled out.

I already explained it to you: if a father committed a crime - they're not to mete out the punishment for that crime on someone else (like his son) who hasn't committed it.

POST #11!



Your quoted Talmudic text on abortion is also a LAW - which is part of their justice system!
It's merely making clear the laws they have to follow in that circumstance.



That has nothing to do with DAVID and his son! :roll:

CONTEXT is the key!



I also said that it can also be interpreted to mean the Last Judgment - figuratively.
We are going to be held accountable for our own sins - not the sins of others - when we face God!



Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV)

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father,
nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.



Read posts #9 and #10!







Furthermore.....

....you're looking at the Scriptural writings thru the eyes of a skeptic!


Am I right?




Do you even believe in the AFTERLIFE PROMISED BY GOD?

YES OR NO!

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Valery said:

What is your argument to be specific? It helps us understand scripture. You see, I don't want to interpret the scripture as I feel fit. I want the truth.

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Valery said:

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin."

2 Samuel
12:9 "Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites."
12:10 "Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'"
12:11 ""This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."
12:12 "You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.'"
12:13 "Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die."
12:14 "But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the LORD, the son born to you will die.""
12:15 "After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife had borne to David, and he became ill."
12:18 "On the seventh day the child died. David's attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, "While the child was still living, he wouldn't listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.""

Is this not a contradiction?

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Valery said:

I'm having a hard time following all your various arguments at once. I belive in the afterlife, but I'm a Muslim and so I do not believe in the Bible.

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