Something to keep in mind...

I've been reading some of the Norse sagas and recently commentary was kicked around here that the native North Americans were somehow stupid or culturally bankrupt because they many were still hunter-gatherers when Europeans were sailing around the world.

I wanted to bring this up partially to further quash such a ridiculous idea and second for the sheer badassery of it.

The Norse sagas discuss at one point the discovery of a place called Vinland (So named because of the grape vines growing there, the Norse were not creative people when it came to names) and Vinland was inhabited (or at least visited) by a group of people the Norse refer to as "Skraelings". In modern Icelandic, "skraelingi" is used to refer to a foreigner the same way the Greeks and Romans used "barbarian". The root of "skraeling" being "skrae" which was the Old Norse word for "skin", the word itself meaning "skin wearers" in Old Norse. Interestingly enough, "skraeling" shows up in several other Nordic languages with the meaning of "weak" or "sickly". In any effect, it probably wasn't a flattering name.

The Norse did not stay on Vinland very long, Thorvald Eriksson (Brother of THE Lief Eriksson) led an expedition to Vinland that was attacked by people he refers to as skraelings. This attack forced Thorvald and his men to retreat and withdraw completely the next spring.

We do know that the Norse did settle parts of North America as far south as Maine but they didnt stay for long. We also know that they had some interaction with others that they referred to as skraelings but these interactions could often result in violence. The Norse spread as far East as the shores of the Black and Caspian seas as well as Italy and Sicily, but they didnt push into North America.

The Vikings expanded far and wide for a reason, they were proficient warriors and feared by the people they encountered. However they did not manage to expand into North America. I find it interesting that at least part of the reason they basically left North America to it's own devices was a population of people that didnt use any metal and wore no armor. The Vikings were, technologically speaking, light years ahead of any of the natives of North America at the time and the natives still drove them off on most occasions.

I would guess it boils down to the natives having superiority of numbers more than anything.

spud_meister said:

I would guess it boils down to the natives having superiority of numbers more than anything.

Click to expand...

Mostly, yes. The Eastern Indians were fierce warriors, like the Norse, but their weapons in pre-Columbian times were stone-age implements and not a lot of use against armor. Still, if three or four Indians swarmed each Viking, and were willing to take casualties to do it, they could get him down and find a weak spot in his armor. Also, a stone-headed war-club might shatter on impact with a metal helmet, but the guy's brains might still slosh around enough to knock him out.

The Norse never settled in sufficient numbers to resist the local tribes.

The Native Americans were what they were, and their hunter-gatherer lifestyle and the fractiousness of the tribes rendered them vulnerable to the European invaders. Since an Indian needed eight square miles to support his family via hunting and gathering, while Europeans with agriculture could support hundreds on the same land: the numbers equation eventually turned in favor of the Europeans. Divide and conquer early on, followed by overwhelm with superior numbers.

It is what it is, regardless of how you define the "better" culture, the European immigrants overwhelmed the Natives with numbers, technology, and organization.

Without looking it up I believe the brilliant Maya culture flourished
ca. 600-900, making it about 100 years older than the saga-era
Vikings, and the near contemporary of what is informally called the
Dark Ages in Europe. The Maya were in several ways more advanced
than the Vikings:

• They were independently literate (the Vikings had taken their alphabet from the Latin)

• They were far ahead in mathematics, having famously invented a calendar more advanced than any other before the 20th century.

• They were far ahead in urban engineering, with their monumental temples and large cities.

And no doubt they excelled in other areas I do not know of.

Strangely however, the succeeding advanced urban societies of
Mesoamerica retrogressed in the art of letters, and were illiterate.
Nor did they ever develop metallurgy other than ornamental, and
they failed to discover the utility of the wheel. It is also strange
that advanced urban culture never developed in the several million
square miles of prime land north of the Rio Grande. I doubt we
will ever understand the social dynamics leading to these conditions.

I do not think there is much doubt that the combination of literacy,
steel, and literacy gave the Europeans an unbeatable advantage
when contact was reestablished with the Americas 500 years after
the Viking era.