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Since you've worked in this area, what is the initial cost to the consumer to have solar panels installed? What is the reliabilty and maintainabilty of these panels?
I think folks would be more open to going in this direction if it were affordable and they could see a return on their investment. We here about solar panels and never hear about the costs and returns.
So it seems there will be an up hill battle in this area. On the East Coast there was a plan to put wind thingys in the Atlantic, of course to make it cost effective they needed to be close to the shore, and it was stopped by some "group". They complained about having to see them and interference with sail boats.
I researched it before for a house I lived in in Phoenix. You are looking at a starting costs anywhere between 20k to 30k or so to begin. Depends on if you are a solar grid tie or a solar off grid system. Off grid means you need to store your own energy and you need a battery backup to hold that energy. Much costs in having your own batter bank. If you are grid-tie that means you still use electricity no different than you do right now right off the grid but the solar system you have is selling electricity back to the electric company at the same time so if you use less than you sell, you could see a check coming your way instead of writing one for the Electric Company.
Solar panels seem to have warranties often around 10 years at the least and many many more years beyond that for some. The Photovoltaic process never degrades. What does degrade is that the sealed system you need for it to react inside which should take decades and most importantly scratches on the glass that lets the sun go through to make the PV happen. When the glass gets scratched or cloudy and whannot, that is what mostly decreases a PV panel's efficiency.
I'm thinking what they need to do is like they do in NASCAR where they have their windshields covered in layers of some 3M film and you just pull a tab when they come into pit row and when that top layer is peeled off, it's like a new windshield all over again. Do that to the PV panels. Dust them off throughout the year and then at the end of the year, peel a layer. Another analogy would be the light film added to your smartphone screen. Something like that.
Here you go. This list isn't complete, but it's damning enough.
Energy subsidies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com
It looks to me like Chicago politics has got nothing compared to Washington politics when it comes to fleecing the taxpayers.
The only idiotic thing to do is fail to fight back. WE should be the one's exporting the latest and greatest energy technology, not China. Only an idiot would fail to support an industry with so many lucrative contracts around the world. China isn't killing a chance at huge money just to deface one of their political figures. Their going balls out to WIN economically, and that's what we should be doing, not pissing in our own sandbox.
Now for credit for production of non conventional fuels. You are correct that this is a tax break only oil company's get but it was implemented by the gov for very specific reasons and has done exactly what it was intended to do. Seems fine to me.The Nonconventional Fuels (Section 29) Tax Credit went
into effect in 1980, following energy shortages and deep
concern about American dependence on imported oil.
Congress sought to encourage production of oil and
natural gas from “nonconventional” sources, such as
Devonian shale, tight formations, and coalbeds. These
deposits are unusually expensive to produce.
The Gas Technology Institute (GTI) studied Section 29’s
history and projected the impact of an extension of the
credit on domestic supply. The GTI study concluded that:
•
Passage of the original Section 29 led to a tripling in the production of
nonconventional gas, as well as innovations in drilling and completion
technology.
•
As for oil and gas exploration and development expenses, that is the same cost of doing business tax breaks we all get in the business world. I just wrote off a new motor for my sawmill, same thing.
Fail to fight back against what?
This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.
Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.
This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.
Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?
And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?
This sounds like the taxpayers are paying out Billions for research and development in the oil industry. Yet when the government does the same for Wind and Solar (and far less for these industries), you guys cry "foul!" You claim that if wind and solar needs so much money to get started then it's not viable anyway. Yet the fully-developed and highly profitable oil industry gets $14.1 billion from the taxpayers every year! And you're okay with that? Sounds like a double-standard.
Well if you feel that it makes sense for taxpayers to pay for the cost of running a business, why would you oppose solar companies getting money that helps running a solar business? Why is it acceptable for taxpayers to pay the operating costs of the fully developed oil business, and NOT acceptable for starting a solar business?
And you didn't address $3.6 Billion subsidy given the highly profitable oil industry. That goes ONLY to the oil industry. It is directly GIVING them money with no need to ever pay it back. Why are we still doing this? Why complain about the burgeoning technologies of Solar energy and EVs getting government help when oil gets far more help?
I responded to all 3 so called subsidies you brought up
...and you made me work to do it too, I had to Goggle stuff damnit.
You bring up subsidizing solar company's vs the alternative fuel tax break oil comps get. The oil company's get a 3 dollar a barrel tax break for non conventional fuel produced in this country whereas solar company's get money handed to them upfront with no guarantee of success. If solar was given tax breaks on a percent of energy they bring to market I would be fine with it. What seems to happen though is solar company's are handed gobs of tax payer dollars as political payoff.
Then change it.
If this is true, the 10 year reliabilty of the panels, it doesn't seem anymore expensive that replacing an HVAC, yes? What is the initial cost? That may be the prohibitive in the equation.
Heating and cooling your home, which is what most regular folks have to worry about, is a monthly expense. If the original cost of the solar panels were equal to the expense of their current system it should be a no brainer. Why are they not catching on, if this is true?
Fail to fight back against what?
Other countries will watch the American government waste billions of tax dollars and then, when the technology has reached the point where it's worthwhile purchasing, they will do so.
This phony race with the Chinese is a way to dupe the poor American tax payer into thinking they must win this race while allowing free private enterprise to fill the void, or the Chinese, is far preferable. Let the Chinese manufacture great solar panels and then copy them, like the Chinese do, or improve on them, like the Japanese do.
Americans have a truly corrupt government, and far too naives make up phony arguments to support these criminals.
Try to remember that China has the #2 economy in the world. They desperately want to be #1, and they will NOT fight fair to get there. Now while you may think the best thing to do is passively spread your legs and let them rape us, and pretend to like it, I completely disagree. If the Chinese become the #1 economy because we became economic pacifists, you can be sure we'll end up paying for our oil in Chinese Yuan, not dollars. I guarantee you will not be able to pretend liking that.
Anybody knows that in business the guy who opens a market first is damned difficult to remove once they're already there. Even a superior competing product has a hard time breaking into the same market.
Secondly, you think it's a good idea to buy Chinese solar panels for OUR country's lifeblood energy? Are you freakin' kidding me? If you let them OWN the solar industry, you don't think they'll gouge the **** out of us when we finally wake up? You KNOW they will do that.
There are many countries out there, with Billions in hand ready to give it away. Who cares if Solar cost 3 cents more than oil or 80 cents more than oil? If people want it, give it to them. If I can convince you that a rubber band with a magnet in it will restore your health and vitality (with regular diet and exercise), but it's all in your mind, really. Who cares? Give it to them! Money made is money made. I can't believe that the Communist Chinese have got the whole Capitalism thing worked out better than Americans. It's downright shameful.
so, 20 grand for solar still on the grid (no storage batteries to buy)... a home improvement guy quoted me 12 for enough to run an air conditioner, but let's use the higher figure just for grins.
I have friends who have big houses populated by kids and have backyard pools. They tell me their power bills hit $600 a month in the summer time. Of course, that's the most expensive, but let's average it out to half that for the year. That's $3,600 a year in potential savings. Now, being still on the grid, there would still be some costs, so let's say they save 3/4 of that, or $2,400 a year for 10 years. That's a pretty good return on investment, it seems to me. You might make more in the stock market, of course, but then it's likely that you'll still have those solar panels in ten years, and still be saving that $2,400 a year, or more as the cost of power goes up. Sell the house, and the solar panels add to the value.
Seems pretty financially sound to me.
What's naive about taking the lead in manufacturing new tech? We did it for generations and its pretty much what put us out in front last century.
It's for sure the American government has got its fingers in a lot of pies and you seem to approve of that. If they give it to one industry, why not another? Correct?
Part of the reason we got there was to fund a conflict that insured the free flow of oil. That multi-Trillion dollar oil subsidy is one people don't want to admit to, but it's still there. And we aren't going to remove that debt by continuing to fund foreign economies with our oil money. If we make our own energy then our money isn't constantly flowing OUT of the country and it remains WITHIN the country. Additionally, if we invest in making energy better than anyone else, which I know we can, then we can win the foreign energy contracts that will ultimately bring money INTO the country. That will go a lot further to removing the debt than always investing in the energy other countries rather than our own.The people are $16 trillion in debt, and counting, and will never be in the position of bailing out the elderly, the infirm, etc. The United States is the most indebted nation since money was invented and, incredibly, many Americans seem to like it that way.
Why not any business? The jobs have to be 'saved', right? And who else can do that but the politicians in Washington? Yes, why complain about any of it? If one sector is getting public money then they all should. Makes sense, huh?
And thank you for responding to the three. Well, perhaps the $3.6 Billion subsidy part got buried in the text. I'm not knocking you for missing it, just still interested in your response to it.
:lol: My posts usually take forever to show up 'cause I'm researching stuff. It works out. My wife can watch her chick flick without my snores distracting her.
Can you understand that the Billions paid out to an already profitable oil industry, and written permanently into tax code by Senators, looks an awful lot like a payoff?
We've tried. The GOP keeps blocking it.
Do Republicans Realize That Keystone Pipeline Won’t Bring Gas to U.S.?
At a congressional hearing in December, Markey asked the president of TransCanada if he would agree to allowing Keystone XL oil and its refined products to stay in the U.S. He said no. So Markey then proposed an amendment to that effect, and Republicans said no—that it couldn’t be done, because the market for oil is not just domestic; it’s global. What Canada wants to do, says Markey, “is create a connection between Alberta and Asia and use the United States as the place where the pipeline gets constructed. And so if that’s all we are is a middleman in this transaction, then the American people should know that.”
"Drill baby Drill" is short for, "Make my campaign donors richer." That is all. It has nothing at all to do with making our lives any better, gas any cheaper, making us energy independent or anything benefiting the USofA.
How about now that one industry is running along famously and making a profit, take government fingers out of that pie, and put not nearly as much into a different pie, and not complain about the savings?
Subsidies are intended to help a critical heavy industry pay the huge startup costs to get them going. Oil for energy has been around for 100 years now. I think we can safely say the oil industry is past the "startup" stage. So let's remove the subsidies and tax breaks from the no longer "startup" oil industry and give a fraction of that to the Renewables industry. The balance can be committed to removing the national debt. Make sense?
Free enterprise put you there, not crony capitalism.
There is often very good money to be made by being 'the middle man'.
And if you are aware of any corruption between any industry and politicians you should speak up against it. But innuendos don't cut it.
Bull Crap You have bought a load of horse manure and you clearly aren't a good farmer... so to speak.
Subsidizing isn't exactly cronyism.
It can be.
Lord knows here in corrupt as hell New Mexico it sure often seems like it is.
You subsidize the direction the country should go.
That's how the trans-continental railroad was made. That's how we got to the moon. That is how the highway system got built. That is how oil got going.
If you stop buying into the all or none platitudes of all government is evil and all private industry free market works great
... you'll see that a cooperative can be the answer... or at least a catalyst to creating a great future just as it has for us in the past.
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