Should we open the borders?

shrubnose · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
What national security concerns are those?

Terrorism.

If we don't control our borders, how do we keep terrorists out?

Do we want someone bringing a suitcase nuke into the USA?

I don't think so.

This goes way beyond people looking for jobs picking grapes and hanging drywall, there are important national security issues involved in this.

I am not opposed to immigration, I'm married to an immigrant who is now a U.S. citizen.

But my wife entered the USA legally and that's the only way that anyone should enter the USA.

For me this not a negotiable issue.

"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." ~ Lewis Carroll

Kal'Stang · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Read my OP. I set conditions on what I think ought to be the bar for entrance to the USA. Having a job or having someone claim you as a dependent were conditions that I feel must be met.

I'm not saying let in everybody and anybody.

We already let people in that have a job. Its called a Job Visa. They just have to prove that they have a job.

As for dependent...unless it is immediate family, ie wife and kids, then no. That just creates a system where those people could just become dependents on the system.

Kal'Stang · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
I never said we ought to invite a billion people to live here, but we could easily sustain that number.

You can choose to disbelieve if you want, but we have plenty of room. In the map above, you see that most people live on the east coast. Why? Not because the land in New England can sustain more people, but because that's where the first boats landed.

If you have a billion people, then maybe California starts to resemble New England's current density, Texas starts to resemble California's current density, Colorado starts to resemble Texas' current density....

You're talking about a little more than doubling the population, but we have from the Atlantic all the way to the Pacific to do it.

There is a huge difference between having room where they can live and having the ability to sustain people.

And seriously? "a little more than doubling"? Doubleing would mean 600 million people. "a little" would mean maybe 700 million. Try like triple the population.

Peter Grimm · May 24, 2013

Kal'Stang said:
We already let people in that have a job. Its called a Job Visa. They just have to prove that they have a job.

As for dependent...unless it is immediate family, ie wife and kids, then no. That just creates a system where those people could just become dependents on the system.

Alright, I'm starting to get frustrated with you, so I don't know if I'm going to keep debating you on this. I will try very slowly to spell this out. Yes, we already have job visas. The whole entire point of my OP is to say that I want the requirements for obtaining a job visa to be loosened.

If you don't think so, then tell me why they shouldn't be loosened. That's the debate. The debate is not about opening up the borders for everyone and anyone. The debate is not about getting rid of the visa system. Capiche?

Please read the OP again so you actually understand what I'm saying. It's quite annoying arguing against straw men.

Peter Grimm · May 24, 2013

shrubnose said:
Terrorism.

If we don't control our borders, how do we keep terrorists out?

Do we want someone bringing a suitcase nuke into the USA?

I don't think so.

This goes way beyond people looking for jobs picking grapes and hanging drywall, there are important national security issues involved in this.

I am not opposed to immigration, I'm married to an immigrant who is now a U.S. citizen.

But my wife entered the USA legally and that's the only way that anyone should enter the USA.

For me this not a negotiable issue.

"If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." ~ Lewis Carroll

When did I say we shouldn't control the borders? I'm beginning to think you read the headline, but never read the text of the OP. In which case, I'm wasting my time.

I myself am a legal immigrant.

shrubnose · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
When did I say we shouldn't control the borders? I'm beginning to think you read the headline, but never read the text of the OP. In which case, I'm wasting my time.

I myself am a legal immigrant.

Well, it looks like maybe we're on the same page then, I totally support legal immigration. The USA has room for and needs a lot more people.

digsbe · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Would you say the same if someone deported you?

If I was illegally residing in another country it would be completely reasonable and rational for me to be deported.

Peter Grimm · May 24, 2013

digsbe said:
If I was illegally residing in another country it would be completely reasonable and rational for me to be deported.

Way to move the goalposts. That's not what I asked.

digsbe · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Way to move the goalposts. That's not what I asked.

Why would I be deported? Because I'm in another country illegally? That's hard to say because personally I don't plan on violating another nation's laws or illegally overstaying a visa. I guess if I did it would be accidental and in that scenario I'd explain myself but ultimately comply with deportation since I'm there illegally.

Kal'Stang · May 24, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Alright, I'm starting to get frustrated with you, so I don't know if I'm going to keep debating you on this. I will try very slowly to spell this out. Yes, we already have job visas. The whole entire point of my OP is to say that I want the requirements for obtaining a job visa to be loosened.

How much looser do you want it? All you need for a work visa is a clean record, no medical conditions and an employer to sponsor you. You don't even have to be able to read or write.

Peter Grimm said:
Please read the OP again so you actually understand what I'm saying. It's quite annoying arguing against straw men.

Yes, it is.

274ina · May 25, 2013

Ikari said:
Good thing no one is suggesting completely open boarders.

Foreign criminal lovers d o that every day.
The ACLU does it.
you seem to do it.
"The Race" wants it. (La Raza)

And now the Senate is passing a bill for basicly unlimited immigration......................if it passes, US Citizenship is FINISHED.

Just saw an acticle about how ~18% of the USA workforce is foreign born and its getting worse............What dows Citizenship MEAN then......WHAT!!!!

Ikari · May 25, 2013

274ina said:
Foreign criminal lovers d o that every day.
The ACLU does it.
you seem to do it.
"The Race" wants it. (La Raza)

And now the Senate is passing a bill for basicly unlimited immigration......................if it passes, US Citizenship is FINISHED.

Just saw an acticle about how ~18% of the USA workforce is foreign born and its getting worse............What dows Citizenship MEAN then......WHAT!!!!

I don't advocate completely open boarders. Maybe it's time that you learn the definitions of the words you're using.

274ina · May 25, 2013

Ikari said:
I don't advocate completely open boarders. Maybe it's time that you learn the definitions of the words you're using.

Even partly open borders are treason to the millions unemployed.............

HumanBeing · May 25, 2013

274ina said:
Even partly open borders are treason to the millions unemployed.............

Could you define what you mean? I'm getting lost Partly open, sealed, wide open, I don't get it. Could someone explain?

shrubnose · May 26, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Why should Americans be entitled to such special treatment? If someone is smarter, hungrier, harder working, then they should be able to come in to this country and take the job. That's what keeps us on top.

We are a country of immigrants.

I agree.

But OTOH we need to control our borders.

Any country that can't we control its borders is a failure as a nation.

We can do if our leaders want to do it.

Jowar · May 26, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
A lot. We could probably sustain over a billion people, easily, so I wouldn't worry about it from that perspective.

We already have plenty of people who are unemployed and on welfare checks that tax payers are paying think of those taxes raised up by a billion and then tell me we can sustain them

274ina · May 26, 2013

HumanBeing said:
Could you define what you mean? I'm getting lost Partly open, sealed, wide open, I don't get it. Could someone explain?

if you have partly open borders and screw 50,000 US CITIZENS out of a job, that is still Treason against 50,000 Citizens. it does not matter if its 100, 50,000, or the
proposed 500,000.

When one foreigner works in USA that automaticly means a CITIZEN is getting screwed.

274ina · May 26, 2013

Ikari said:
I don't advocate completely open boarders. Maybe it's time that you learn the definitions of the words you're using.

you say "undocumented" I say Foreign Criminal. One is right, the other is propoganda.................

laska · May 26, 2013

I'd like to see the entire North and South America open borders and free market. Let people come and go as they please.

HumanBeing · May 26, 2013

274ina said:
if you have partly open borders and screw 50,000 US CITIZENS out of a job, that is still Treason against 50,000 Citizens. it does not matter if its 100, 50,000, or the
proposed 500,000.

When one foreigner works in USA that automaticly means a CITIZEN is getting screwed.

Well no, it doesn't. As I've already said, I'm willing to make a substantial investment and hire some Americans just to be allowed to live and work there, yet your government is nickle and diming me on the amounts and conditions of investment to the point where I'll probably have to just take my money to Canada instead. You're getting screwed because they won't let me in.

Again though, I'd like to ask what you mean by "partly open". I mean, are you guys talking about physical walls, or political policies?

ChrisL · May 26, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

America doesn't have enough to allow in everyone who wants to come here. We certainly cannot produce enough jobs to fill for everyone. It's just a really dumb idea.

Ikari · May 27, 2013

274ina said:
you say "undocumented" I say Foreign Criminal. One is right, the other is propoganda.................

I didn't say either of those.

Dooble · May 28, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
We should abandon our silly and futile notion of trying to "seal the borders" and just "let the markets work," so to speak.

I think there should be two conditions that, if satisfied, should allow anyone and everyone to enter or exit the United States at will. First, do they have a job? If yes, then they are productive, and they should be allowed to stay. If not, is there someone willing to claim them as a dependent? Is there someone willing to feed, clothe, school them? If so, there is no reason to keep them out of the country. The second condition is that they don't have a criminal record.

Why not seal the border? Well, for one, futility. No matter what we do, people find ways to enter the country. So really, we're kicking and screaming, we're pouring countless resources in to fight a "problem" that is probably never going to be resolved.

Second, aside from pure xenophobia and/or racism, I haven't heard a good argument yet for why we should try to stem the tide of immigrants in to this vast country of ours. You have to admit, that's part of the equation. Nobody would complain if a bunch of blond hair, blue eyed, English speaking Canadians were crossing the border en masse. So I think we need to be mature and ask ourselves if xenophobia is really a good enough reason to literally build a fence between ourselves and our neighbors.

No. Population migrations are a natural phenomenon. It's been going on forever. Massive governments and their laws and walls are artificial phenomenon. Nature will find a way.

In other words, our founding fathers wanted the entire earth to have US citizenship.

Peter Grimm · May 28, 2013

Dooble said:
In other words, our founding fathers wanted the entire earth to have US citizenship.

Speculating on what the founders of the United States would have wanted is academic.

Jetboogieman · May 28, 2013

Peter Grimm said:
Speculating on what the founders of the United States would have wanted is academic.

While I don't think all this "what the founders would have wanted" is very healthy for people to be thinking in this day and age...

I must concur with my conservative colleague.

I don't think the founders wanted the whole world to have US citizenship and this thread and everything you've posted in it is the very opposite of academic.

It's nonsense.

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