Should those accused os sex offences be convicted on "he said she said" evidence?

SCitizen · Jul 1, 2014

There are 774,600 Registered Sex Offenders in the U.S. and its Territories. About 220,000 sex offenders are in prisons and jails and about 12,000 more are in involuntary commitment institutions. Many or most of these offenders have been convicted on the accuser's word without other corroboration. Before mid 1980s corroboration was needed for conviction. Many sex offense prosecutors consider the ability to convict without corroboration a great victory. On the other hand, only about 16% of the accused are convicted.

In my opinion, corroborative evidence should be required for criminal convictions -- especially if the punishment is life long. Nevertheless, my opinion may be in minority.

Sababa · Jul 1, 2014

SCitizen said:
There are 774,600 Registered Sex Offenders in the U.S. and its Territories. About 220,000 sex offenders are in prisons and jails and about 12,000 more are in involuntary commitment institutions. Many or most of these offenders have been convicted on the accuser's word without other corroboration. Before mid 1980s corroboration was needed for conviction. Many sex offense prosecutors consider the ability to convict without corroboration a great victory. On the other hand, only about 16% of the accused are convicted.

In my opinion, corroborative evidence should be required for criminal convictions -- especially if the punishment is life long. Nevertheless, my opinion may be in minority.

most sex offenders aren't convicted because the victim is almost always put on trial.

SCitizen · Jul 1, 2014

Sababa said:
most sex offenders aren't convicted because the victim is almost always put on trial.

Actually in most cases the accusation does not get to trial. Most convictions are obtained by guilty plea -- the accused do not want to risk the penalty for jury trial.

Redress · Jul 1, 2014

SCitizen said:
. Many or most of these offenders have been convicted on the accuser's word without other corroboration.

Source for that please.

MaggieD · Jul 1, 2014

SCitizen said:
There are 774,600 Registered Sex Offenders in the U.S. and its Territories. About 220,000 sex offenders are in prisons and jails and about 12,000 more are in involuntary commitment institutions. Many or most of these offenders have been convicted on the accuser's word without other corroboration. Before mid 1980s corroboration was needed for conviction. Many sex offense prosecutors consider the ability to convict without corroboration a great victory. On the other hand, only about 16% of the accused are convicted.

In my opinion, corroborative evidence should be required for criminal convictions -- especially if the punishment is life long. Nevertheless, my opinion may be in minority.

Every trial requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt before conviction. Corroborative evidence is a very broad term. Eye witnesses? Not required. DNA evidence? Not required. Cuts and bruises? Not required. It's the totality of the circumstances that speak. If a person is found guilty of a sexual offense, it's because there was corroborative evidence. We don't convict people based upon a mere accusation.

SCitizen · Jul 1, 2014

MaggieD said:
We don't convict people based upon a mere accusation.

In most date rape cases there is evidence of intercourse, but not evidence of force or lack of consent.

MaggieD · Jul 1, 2014

SCitizen said:
In most date rape cases there is evidence of intercourse, but not evidence of force or lack of consent.

How many men/women get convicted of date rape? If all the evidence available is she said/he said, the guy isn't going to be convicted. It's the totality of the circumstances. Did she report it to the police immediately? Was she drugged? Was she drunk? Did anyone see her same? Were they on a first date? Did she spurn him? Without some back-up evidence or testimony or circumstances, no one's even going to be charged.

Gipper · Jul 2, 2014

If someone is accused of anything, let alone a sex crime, without proof and they plead guilty - they're idiots. The system is designed to give benefit of the doubt, so even people who actually did do it are often better to go to trial than plead out.

Hatuey · Jul 2, 2014

MaggieD said:
We don't convict people based upon a mere accusation.

The Innocence Project - Dallas County Cases Where DNA Has Proven Innocence

Wiley Fountain was convicted in 1986 of aggravated sexual assault and sentenced to 40 years in prison. Fountain was released on parole in February 2001, but his parole was revoked months later when he failed to find a job and pay fees as a registered sex offender. He was finally released from prison in 2002 after DNA excluded him from rape kit evidence, and he was pardoned by Governor Rick Perry in 2003.

Donald Wayne Good was convicted in 1984 of committing a 1983 rape and burglary. He was sentenced to life in prison. He was paroled in 1993, but his parole was revoked in 2002 (for a minor property crime); he is still serving a five-year sentence for the property crime. In 2004, DNA testing proved that Good could not have been the man who committed the 1983 crimes, and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals exonerated him in 2004.

In 1983, Keith E. Turner was convicted of a 1982 aggravated sexual assault and sentenced to 20 years in prison, of which he served four years. Turner was exonerated and pardoned in 2005.

Gregory Wallis was convicted in 1989 of burglary of a habitation with intent to commit sexual assault in 1988. He was sentenced to 50 years in prison and served 18 years. He was released in March 2006 and officially exonerated in 2007.

In two separate trials, Steven Phillips was convicted of burglary in 1982 and rape in 1983. He was sentenced to 30 years in prison for these two convictions. Before a third trial could begin, Phillips pled guilty to charges stemming from five other similar crimes in exchange for an additional sentence of 10 years. In 1996, Phillips was released on parole but was arrested again in 1997 for an alleged parole violation and returned to prison. After serving 24 years in prison, Phillips was released on parole in 2007. One year later, DNA testing proved his innocence and he was formally exonerated in 2008.

Cornelius Dupree was exonerated in 2011, after spending more than 30 years in prison for a rape and robbery he didn’t commit. He could have been eligible for parole much earlier, but he would have had to admit his guilt, something he refused to do.

Exonerated by DNA evidence, James Bain isn't angry about spending 35 years of his life in prison for a horrific crime that he didn't commit.

Read more: James Bain Exonerated After 35 Years In Prison - Business Insider

15 People Who Were Jailed and/or Executed, Then Found Innocent | Raw Justice

In 2009 the case was reopened, however, the Governor of Texas mysteriously reappointed four of the nine members of the Forensic Science Commission. Still, court changed the conviction to unsustainable in 2009.

Felker’s lawyers also discovered withheld evidence during the trial that included DNA samples and a signed confession from another man (though the man was mentally retarded). Despite this, Felker was found guilty and executed in 1996, 15 years after his initial hearing.

10 Convicts Presumed Innocent After Execution - Listverse

Griffin’s fingerprints were not found on the car or the weapon – all evidence against him was circumstantial. There is evidence that suggests Fitzgerald was promised a reduce sentence in exchange for his testimony. The prosecution also failed to address that there were two other witnesses who confirmed that Griffin did not commit the murder and they were able to name the three men who did.Appeals courts upheld his conviction and death sentence. Griffin was executed by lethal injection on June 21, 1995. Griffin maintained his innocence right up to his execution. In 2005, a professor University of Michigan Law School reopened the case. His investigation concluded that Griffin was innocent.

.... Continued....

Hatuey · Jul 2, 2014

MaggieD said:
We don't convict people based upon a mere accusation.

Innocence: List of Those Freed From Death Row | Death Penalty Information Center

NR* NAME ST RACE CONVICTED EXONERATED YEARS BETWEEN REASON DNA **
1 David Keaton FL B 1971 1973 2 Charges Dismissed
2 Samuel A. Poole NC B 1973 1974 1 Charges Dismissed
3 Wilbert Lee FL B 1963 1975 12 Pardoned
4 Freddie Pitts FL B 1963 1975 12 Pardoned
5 James Creamer GA W 1973 1975 2 Charges Dismissed
6 Christopher Spicer NC B 1973 1975 2 Acquitted
7 Thomas Gladish NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed
8 Richard Greer NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed
9 Ronald Keine NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed
10 Clarence Smith NM W 1974 1976 2 Charges Dismissed
11 Delbert Tibbs FL B 1974 1977 3 Charges Dismissed
12 Earl Charles GA B 1975 1978 3 Charges Dismissed
13 Jonathan Treadway AZ W 1975 1978 3 Acquitted
14 Gary Beeman OH W 1976 1979 3 Acquitted
15 Jerry Banks GA B 1975 1980 5 Charges Dismissed
16 Larry Hicks IN B 1978 1980 2 Acquitted
17 Charles Ray Giddens OK B 1978 1981 3 Charges Dismissed
18 Michael Linder SC W 1979 1981 2 Acquitted
19 Johnny Ross LA B 1975 1981 6 Charges Dismissed
20 Ernest (Shujaa) Graham CA B 1976 1981 5 Acquitted
21 Annibal Jaramillo FL L 1981 1982 1 Charges Dismissed
22 Lawyer Johnson MA B 1971 1982 11 Charges Dismissed
23 Larry Fisher MS W 1984 1985 1 Acquitted
24 Anthony Brown FL B 1983 1986 3 Acquitted
25 Neil Ferber PA W 1982 1986 4 Charges Dismissed
26 Clifford Henry Bowen OK W 1981 1986 5 Charges Dismissed
27 Joseph Green Brown FL B 1974 1987 13 Charges Dismissed
28 Perry Cobb IL B 1979 1987 8 Acquitted
29 Darby (Jesse) Tillis IL B 1979 1987 8 Acquitted
30 Vernon McManus TX W 1977 1987 10 Charges Dismissed
31 Anthony Ray Peek FL B 1978 1987 9 Acquitted
32 Juan Ramos FL L 1983 1987 4 Acquitted
33 Robert Wallace GA B 1980 1987 7 Acquitted
34 Richard Neal Jones OK W 1983 1987 4 Acquitted
35 Willie Brown FL B 1983 1988 5 Charges Dismissed
36 Larry Troy FL B 1983 1988 5 Charges Dismissed
37 Randall Dale Adams TX W 1977 1989 12 Charges Dismissed
38 Robert Cox FL W 1988 1989 1 Charges Dismissed
39 James Richardson FL B 1968 1989 21 Charges Dismissed
40 Clarence Brandley TX B 1981 1990 9 Charges Dismissed
41 John C. Skelton TX W 1983 1990 7 Acquitted
42 Dale Johnston OH W 1984 1990 6 Charges Dismissed
43 Jimmy Lee Mathers AZ W 1987 1990 3 Acquitted
44 Gary Nelson GA B 1980 1991 11 Charges Dismissed
45 Bradley P. Scott FL W 1988 1991 3 Acquitted
46 Charles Smith IN B 1983 1991 8 Acquitted
47 Jay C. Smith PA W 1986 1992 6 Acquitted
48 Kirk Bloodsworth MD W 1984 1993 9 Charges Dismissed Yes
49 Federico M. Macias TX L 1984 1993 9 Charges Dismissed

... Continued...

MaggieD · Jul 2, 2014

Hatuey said:
Innocence: List of Those Freed From Death Row | Death Penalty Information Center

... Continued...

There's nothing sadder than a list like this. One wonders, as in one case where a signed confession was ignored and never, apparently, passed on to the defense, if anyone goes to jail or loses their law license or is censured in any way.

Every once in a while we read about someone where new evidence has absolutely shown that the person is not guilty, yet just to get it reviewed takes years. It shouldn't be that way.

The justice system is far from perfect. Thanks for the work you went to in order to remind us.

MaggieD · Jul 2, 2014

Gipper said:
If someone is accused of anything, let alone a sex crime, without proof and they plead guilty - they're idiots. The system is designed to give benefit of the doubt, so even people who actually did do it are often better to go to trial than plead out.

In theory, you're right. In practice, the state can spend a family broke. Public defenders are only appointed if one is broke. Getting there may devastate an innocent man and his family.

Gipper · Jul 2, 2014

MaggieD said:
In theory, you're right. In practice, the state can spend a family broke. Public defenders are only appointed if one is broke. Getting there may devastate an innocent man and his family.

If it ever happened to me, I would defend myself. I've seen enough Law and Order. I can manage.

MaggieD · Jul 2, 2014

Gipper said:
If it ever happened to me, I would defend myself. I've seen enough Law and Order. I can manage.

BREAKING NEWS: Libertarian receives death penalty for shoplifting licorice. Details at 11.

d0gbreath · Jul 2, 2014

Gipper said:
If it ever happened to me, I would defend myself. I've seen enough Law and Order. I can manage.

This would be a very bad idea.

Gipper · Jul 2, 2014

d0gbreath said:
This would be a very bad idea.

Not really. I've had a few law classes in college and I keep up on courtroom procedure. I'm also a rather eloquent speaker.

Am I Johnny Cochran? Nope. Could I get myself off from a baseless charge? Easily.

d0gbreath · Jul 2, 2014

Gipper said:
Not really. I've had a few law classes in college and I keep up on courtroom procedure. I'm also a rather eloquent speaker.

Am I Johnny Cochran? Nope. Could I get myself off from a baseless charge? Easily.

You sound confident, so I won't worry about you. Hopefully you'll never have to defend yourself.

Gipper · Jul 2, 2014

d0gbreath said:
You sound confident, so I won't worry about you. Hopefully you'll never have to defend yourself.

So far, so good.

Lursa · Jul 2, 2014

SCitizen said:
In most date rape cases there is evidence of intercourse, but not evidence of force or lack of consent.

There is still the totality of the circumstances around it.

SMTA · Jul 2, 2014

SCitizen said:
In most date rape cases there is evidence of intercourse, but not evidence of force or lack of consent.

What is the source for this?

Gipper · Jul 2, 2014

SMTA said:
What is the source for this?

Conviction rates, for starters. Lots of date rape cases get wiped clean by "it was consentual" claims. Usually the ones that result in conviction involve the victims reporting defensive wounds or other sorts of violence.

Ikari · Jul 2, 2014

SCitizen said:
There are 774,600 Registered Sex Offenders in the U.S. and its Territories. About 220,000 sex offenders are in prisons and jails and about 12,000 more are in involuntary commitment institutions. Many or most of these offenders have been convicted on the accuser's word without other corroboration. Before mid 1980s corroboration was needed for conviction. Many sex offense prosecutors consider the ability to convict without corroboration a great victory. On the other hand, only about 16% of the accused are convicted.

In my opinion, corroborative evidence should be required for criminal convictions -- especially if the punishment is life long. Nevertheless, my opinion may be in minority.

Hearsay? No, hearsay is not evidence and should not be sole consideration of guilt.

SMTA · Jul 2, 2014

Ikari said:
Hearsay? No, hearsay is not evidence and should not be sole consideration of guilt.

Ayup - when only two people are involved, additional evidence is required for conviction.

d0gbreath · Jul 2, 2014

SMTA said:
Ayup - when only two people are involved, additional evidence is required for conviction.

I had a lawyer once that referred to the two people situation as a "liar's war".

SCitizen · Jul 2, 2014

Gipper said:
If someone is accused of anything, let alone a sex crime, without proof and they plead guilty - they're idiots. The system is designed to give benefit of the doubt, so even people who actually did do it are often better to go to trial than plead out.

In USA any plea deal on such crimes still involves lifetime sentence. In Canada, Australia, UK, France, a plea can get the accused a few yer sentence.

Should those accused os sex offences be convicted on "he said she said" evidence?

Should there be sex offense convictions based on accusers word without corroboration?

Yes -- more then now.

Yes -- keep current system.

Yes -- in very rare cases.

No.

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