I wasn't clear, because you're playing dumb and pretending to not understand what I'm saying I've got no interest in talking to you.
"Well, at least now you admit the Obama's White House are liars.Thats fine, but my point still stands. Russia did indeed invite outside observers to Crimea to observe the referndum election and that negates your claim that they didn't want outsiders to observe the election.
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Imo, Crimea's entire beef with Ukraine is it's unstable, corrupt government and the far right pro-nationalists threat of ethnic cleansing if they gained control. So to see the far right nationalist Svoboda's quick rise in parliament and now second in control of the government is probably a cause for great concern for Crimeans. After years of threats of ethnic cleansing and corrupt government officials...the threat is now barking at Crimea's door. If now is not a good time for Crimea to secceed, then when is?
If the referendum was a choice between two evils, Ukraine corruption or Russia corruption, Crimea picked the one they're most comfortable with....and I can't say I blame them because Ukraine's government is a mess and getting worse, not better. US throwing money at Ukraine isn't going to fix whats wrong with Ukraine and will likely only make it worse.....15 billion....how could it not?
Ukraine, who couldn't get a loan from US or IMF to save it's life before the coup.....after the coup, the US and IMF are tripping over themselves to loan them billions. So one might say that Putin actually helped Ukraine hit the jackpot and come out a winner. Now Ukraine can use the billions they get from IMF to pay their debt to Russia for the gas ....and in doing so...Putin comes out a winner, too. Most of the loan money is just going to get syphoned off by the corrupt Ukraine politicians, oligarchs and russia. The only ones who will really lose and end up paying is the US. Pretty clever of Putin, eh?
Imo it is not a surprise to have 95% vote there.The USA made a deal with Russia. We get the massive natural resources of Afghanistan and Russia gets the massive natural resources of the Crimean region of Ukraine.
All the rest is just diversion and noise until the public loses interests as it always does.
Who loses are the people of Afghanistan and the people of Crimea.
Claiming 95% voted to join Russia is absurd on its face and self-proving it is a fraud.
That's what Mexico has been doing for over forty years now.
Now the Mexican government is dictating to the American government that we should award these Mexican invaders with amnesty and citizenship while at the same time claiming under the "Law of Nations" that these Mexicans who now occupying America are still Mexican citizens who owe their allegiance to Mexico not America.
"Well, at least now you admit the Obama's White House are liars.
They have stated that the Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the election, an election held under Russia invasion and martial law, in a country that in the past deported and genocided everyone who opposed the Russian government - for which is was announced Russia won the election by 95% - though that had never been the outcome in prior votes on the same question.
There is no credibility in those posting 95% voted to join Russia, but at least you admit - as do nearly all Democrats on the forum, that the Obama White House are liars.
Maybe the Mexican government should consider asking them to return, then, since it's my understanding that part of our plan includes expecting them to serve time in our military as a condition of amnesty. How can we do that if they are Mexican citizens who owe their allegiance to Mexico, not the US?
Greetings, APACHERAT. :2wave:
I don't see how you could misunderstand the context that I meant since it was exactly the same as yours....I even used your words..."outside observers". So instead of conceding the point, you're equivocating and actually trying to move the goal posts? Really? oi.
Yes, I was responding to Wiseone's claim that Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observers" whatsoever. Just to be clear, I said, "outside observers" not "international observers."Here's what you did:
1. You claimed that Russia invited international observers to monitor the legitimacy of the election. To support this claim, you cited the Russian invitation of the OSCE and the EU right-wing parties.
And I pointed out that they did and I was right.2. Wiseone pointed out that a) the Russians themselves did not actually invite anyone,
No, as Wiseman's link pointed out, it was Crimea that didn't have the authority to invite them to observe. Geezus, you don't even know what the issue is and yet here you are pretending to be the grand jury. Perhaps you should've just let well enough alone, Madlib.because they had no authority to do so;
Wiseone first said that Russia wouldn't allow ANY outside observers in Crimea and that is what I responded to. He didn't quantify that they had to be "professional' or "qualified" until well after he put his foot in his mouth. He also just assumed the EU far right nationalist parties weren't qualified to be election observers when in fact political parties often do have their own observers and the ones that Putin asked are recognized by the EU as a legitmate political party with all the qualifications neccessary to observe an election just as any other recognized political party would. But not that it matters because the point is and has been from the start of our discussion is that Russia did in fact invite outside observers, period.b) the OSCE could not observe because it is outside of their mandate; and c) the right-wing groups are not qualified to determine the fairness of the referendum.
Wiseman deliberatly moving the goal posts from Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observer' then to only "qualifed and professinal international observer" and then to saying Russia did invite outside observers but but but....was obfuscating. But in your zeal to find fault with me, apparently you over looked his glaring fallacy.3. You then confused the OSCE and the right-wingers in your response, perhaps to deliberately obfuscate his legitimate arguments.
There's plenty of self evident dishonesty to go around, MadLib and you and Wiseman are no exception.The dishonesty in what just happened is pretty self-evident.
Sorry, but I didn't admit any such thing.
Of course she (America) should.
If Obama recognizes an illegal coup to topple a democratically elected government in Kiev...then he should recognize a legally-held (the Crimean government overwhelmingly approved it) referendum.
Then why don't you just post that Crimea was never part of the Ukraine and make up anything else for your anti-Ukraine messages? Claim Ukraine was mass slaughtering Crimeans?
The White House claims Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the counting and that the election was a fraud. You claim the results of the election are accurate, despite they numbers also contradict past elections on the issue.
If you claim the 95% vote result is accurate then you are also claiming the Obama White House is lying.
The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?
The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.
If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...
I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next.I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
What the USA recognizes or doesn't recognize will have zero effect on the situation in Crimea.
I don't believe that Russia is going to back off.
Who is going to make Russia back off?
The majority of the people (58.32%) in Crimea are ethnic Russians.
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Unless it can be proved, to an international tribunal, that there was undue and flagrant abuses which affected the vote, we as a nation, should support the vox populi and recognize the Crimean vote as it stands.
Three cheers for genocide and the white race! White people of the world need to keep sticking together like you say.
Personally, I think they're all lying.Then why don't you just post that Crimea was never part of the Ukraine and make up anything else for your anti-Ukraine messages? Claim Ukraine was mass slaughtering Crimeans?
The White House claims Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the counting and that the election was a fraud. You claim the results of the election are accurate, despite they numbers also contradict past elections on the issue.
If you claim the 95% vote result is accurate then you are also claiming the Obama White House is lying.
Simpleχity;1063040025 said:It seems to me that this referendum violates numerous Articles of the Constitution of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea
Article 1
1. The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral part of Ukraine and it shall solve, within the powers conferred upon it by the Constitution of Ukraine, any and all matters coming within its terms of reference.
Article 2
2. In the event where the provisions of the statutory acts of the Supreme Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the acts of the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea should contradict the Constitution of Ukraine and/or Ukrainian laws, the provisions of the Constitution of Ukraine and Ukrainian laws shall prevail.
Article 28
The statutory acts of the Supreme Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea upon any and all matters regarding the powers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall conform to the Constitution of Ukraine and Ukrainian laws.
There is also the matter of the Crimean port city Sevastopol. According to the Ukrainian Constitution, the city of Sevastopol is classified as an "independent city" on sovereign Ukrainian (not Crimean) land.
More obfuscation. You know that's what he meant; the terms are used interchangeably.Yes, I was responding to Wiseone's claim that Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observers" whatsoever. Just to be clear, I said, "outside observers" not "international observers."
Because, other than Russian state propaganda, there is no evidence to suggest that Russia allowed qualified observers.In your astute observations, MadLib...did you happen to notice if Wiseman provided any evidence to support his claim that Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observers" in Crimea?
'Themselves" is the qualifying word in that statement. You'll get no argument from me that the Crimean regional government is Putin's puppet, but that's still Crimea inviting them, not Russia.And I pointed out that they did and I was right.
Same difference. Either way, that does not count as a legitimate invitation. :2wave:No, as Wiseman's link pointed out, it was Crimea that didn't have the authority to invite them to observe. Geezus, you don't even know what the issue is and yet here you are pretending to be the grand jury. Perhaps you should've just let well enough alone, Madlib.
It's obvious that he didn't mean any random idiot who could be invited to join and it would count as an "outside observer."Wiseone first said that Russia wouldn't allow ANY outside observers in Crimea and that is what I responded to. He didn't quantify that they had to be "professional' or "qualified" until well after he put his foot in his mouth.
Since when did EU political parties have the qualifications to observe an election, especially one that takes place outside of the Eurozone?He also just assumed the EU far right nationalist parties weren't qualified to be election observers when in fact political parties often do have their own observers and the ones that Putin asked are recognized by the EU as a legitmate political party with all the qualifications neccessary to observe an election just as any other recognized political party would. [/B]
More obfuscation. You know that's what he meant; the terms are used interchangeably.
Because, other than Russian state propaganda, there is no evidence to suggest that Russia allowed qualified observers.
'Themselves" is the qualifying word in that statement. You'll get no argument from me that the Crimean regional government is Putin's puppet, but that's still Crimea inviting them, not Russia.
Same difference. Either way, that does not count as a legitimate invitation. :2wave:
It's obvious that he didn't mean any random idiot who could be invited to join and it would count as an "outside observer."
Since when did EU political parties have the qualifications to observe an election, especially one that takes place outside of the Eurozone?
Well a few points.
1) The Russians would never allow outside observers into the Crimea to watch over the election, it simply cannot be negotiated for....
The Russians invited outside observers to monitor the Crimea election.....
NBC: "....There are 135 independent observers from 23 countries in Crimea to monitor the referendum vote scheduled for Sunday, in which citizens will decide whether to join Russia or remain an autonomous region in Ukraine.....
Referendum Monitor Criticizes U.S. Involvement in Crimea - NBC News
Reuters: Mar. 15 - International monitors invited by Russia arrive in Crimea to observe Sunday's referendum to join Russia. Sarah Toms reports...
International observers arrive for Crimea referendum | Video | Reuters.com
EuroNews: "...Russia and Crimea’s pro-Russian parliament have both backed election monitors but the OSCE does not plan to send any, judging Sunday’s referendum illegal...."
http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/15/thwarted-crimea-mission-of-osce-observers/
Just thought you should know. :2wave:
The Russians invited outside observers to monitor the Crimea election.....
NBC: "....There are 135 independent observers from 23 countries in Crimea to monitor the referendum vote scheduled for Sunday, in which citizens will decide whether to join Russia or remain an autonomous region in Ukraine.....
Referendum Monitor Criticizes U.S. Involvement in Crimea - NBC News
Reuters: Mar. 15 - International monitors invited by Russia arrive in Crimea to observe Sunday's referendum to join Russia. Sarah Toms reports...
International observers arrive for Crimea referendum | Video | Reuters.com
EuroNews: "...Russia and Crimea’s pro-Russian parliament have both backed election monitors but the OSCE does not plan to send any, judging Sunday’s referendum illegal...."
http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/15/thwarted-crimea-mission-of-osce-observers/
Just thought you should know. :2wave:
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