I get what you're saying, but this can just as easily be reversed. A lot of people want kids when they're younger, then realize what that implies when they get older and decide they'd rather not.
But for some reason, people only question how much you know yourself if you say you DON'T want kids.
The childfree come at all levels of intensity, just like parents. It means nothing about their commitment to their choice.
This phenomenon which you say is easily reversed and forms the basis of your rebuttal - prove it. Show us where this "A lot of people" information comes from other than your imagination. I'm really curious to see how your world view is shaped - is it by analyzing the world or is your view of the world shaped by your imagination and anything you concoct in that imagination is now, to you, a real world phenomenon.
Know what I think 'parents' hate the most about the child-free? We can take a nap anytime we feel like it!
Mind if I ask how old you are?
Reason being, I have a younger daughter who has said the same about having children for all of her adult life. Now that she's married and has become an Aunt of two, she's slowly changing her mind.
Another bingo I love. The "You don't know yourself, woman folk. Someday when you grow up and learn your place, you'll see things my way." It has a passive aggressive subtle twist, which is a nice touch. Clearly a veteran of the sport, here. I give it a 9.5 for style, 10 for patronizing tone, and 8.5 for subliminal fear of people (women?) breaking rank. Good showing.
And your daughter has what to do with Ocean exactly? You do know women are not all identical and many of us never do change our minds, right? That is, assuming this isn't simply your wishful thinking.
Since when am I doing any such thing?
He said something about his daughter, some stranger as far as Ocean is concerned, and then leaped to the conclusion that whatever his daughter thinks must somehow mean something about what Ocean will think.
Yep, gotta love these conservative guys who "think" that women who don't want children -- or husband either for that matter -- have something "wrong" with them or are "too young to know their own mind," and other such nonsense.
Just because HIS daughter is "slowly changing her mind" (maybe he WISHES that were true) doesn't mean I'M going to, not for a New York minute. :lol:
I agree with you. If Ocean was just a vehement about having 5 kids, I would probably ask the same question and give her the same warning, especially about looking at so specific a number. I never really thought as a young man that I would have more than a couple of kids, but I ended up with 4 of my own and a step-son. Now I never really plan on a family size one way or another. There were many things in my life that I strongly denied I would do when younger that now I do. Logan's Law #3: Don't ever say "never". That's really my only message to Ocean.
Well thanks; I got your "message," and guess what, I DIDN'T change my mind. As I told WCH, I'm 40+ now, and I still have NO desire for children and NO intention to have them. And yes, I still have the same feelings about pregnancy and children that you pointed out, no changes there either.
So in my case at least, the word "NEVER" still applies.
Well, unlike some here who think I'm Mr Fundie Man, it doesn't bother me that you don't want children. Raising children is probably one of the more difficult and time-robbing practices known to humankind. One needs to be totally dedicated and involved in the process to be successful.I'm 40+, and still loving the childfree choice just as much now as I did in my teens and twenties. I enjoy my life more BECAUSE I don't have kids, or husband either, so there is, thankfully, NO chance that I will change my mind. Hope that clears things up for you.
But, it is also the most rewarding and satisfying of all human endeavours.
So what does/did you boss say about that while you were on the clock?
I agree with you. If Ocean was just a vehement about having 5 kids, I would probably ask the same question and give her the same warning, especially about looking at so specific a number. I never really thought as a young man that I would have more than a couple of kids, but I ended up with 4 of my own and a step-son. Now I never really plan on a family size one way or another. There were many things in my life that I strongly denied I would do when younger that now I do. Logan's Law #3: Don't ever say "never". That's really my only message to Ocean.
Again, I get what you're saying, but I think a lot of people who want kids don't quite get how some childfree people are built.
Here's what you have to get: for some childfree people, the idea of "kids" just doesn't make sense in our brains. It is fundamentally at odds with the most basic aspects of our personalities. This is especially common in those of us who were "early articulators," like myself.
For those of us who are just wired up this way, saying "you never know -- you might want kids someday" is like saying, "you never know -- you might suddenly change sexualities." Sure, that could happen... if I got hit in the head with a piano.
Again, I get what you're saying, but I think a lot of people who want kids don't quite get how some childfree people are built.
Let's understand that there are two basic criticisms - the "don't pay your fair share" and the "I don't get you guys."
Mother Nature is always experimenting and it produces rejects and dead ends all the time. I suppose we can celebrate that Mother Nature isn't resting on her laurels, but a dead end is still a dead end.
You're missing the point of that line of criticism. To put it into Rumsfeldian terms, what we're dealing with here is an "unknown known." You have one group of people, those who say they don't want to have children, and there are two outcomes possible, they don't want to have children or they do want to have children. A very large segment of those who claim that they don't want to have children eventually change their mind and do want to have children. The problem here is that there is no way of distinguishing which of the known outcomes a person will eventually fall into because they both expressed the same opinion at an earlier stage in life.
Maybe think of it this way -
-"I don't like chocolate."
-"How do you know until you try."
-"I just know."
-"Try it"
-"OK, I'll try it."
Branch out here:
#1 - "Hey, chocolate tastes good."
#2 - "Yuck, that's awful. I told you I didn't like chocolate. See, I was right."
I snipped most of that because there was no point in quoting it all. I get what you are saying and RiverDad's point aside, when we asked these questions and noted that there was always the possibility of changing minds, we get hit with the "you're a misogynist and are trying to put women in what you feel is their place" attitude, or something very much like it. Which wasn't the case. What we were making a point on had nothing to do with gender or a woman's place.
You have one group of people, those who say they don't want to have children, and there are two outcomes possible, they don't want to have children or they do want to have children. A very large segment of those who claim that they don't want to have children eventually change their mind and do want to have children. The problem here is that there is no way of distinguishing which of the known outcomes a person will eventually fall into because they both expressed the same opinion at an earlier stage in life.
Maybe think of it this way -
-"I don't like chocolate."
-"How do you know until you try."
-"I just know."
-"Try it"
-"OK, I'll try it."
Branch out here:
#1 - "Hey, chocolate tastes good."
#2 - "Yuck, that's awful. I told you I didn't like chocolate. See, I was right."
I dont understand why that's a problem?
It's reasonable that society would see things this way even though it's not rational. (and since when has society ever been rational?) For reproduction, one male can replace ten males but one female cannot replace ten females. That's literally the nature of the beast, like it or not.Well, the thing is, that's often the case. There's some childfree guys floating around here, and I rarely ever see them get the same crap thrown at them. Childfree men I know mostly only get trouble from two places: women they're in relationships with, and their family if they are an only son. But larger society leaves them alone, and they readily admit that. The same can't be said for childfree women.
It's reasonable that society would see things this way even though it's not rational. (and since when has society ever been rational?) For reproduction, one male can replace ten males but one female cannot replace ten females. That's literally the nature of the beast, like it or not.
So then back to a question I asked you in another thread a while back that you never answered: If (and I'm making that a very big "if" right now) something were to change and you did end up either married or with at least one kids (even via adoption), will you come back here to DP and admit that you had been wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong yet or that you will be. But only a fool never entertains the possibility.
Well, unlike some here who think I'm Mr Fundie Man, it doesn't bother me that you don't want children. Raising children is probably one of the more difficult and time-robbing practices known to humankind. One needs to be totally dedicated and involved in the process to be successful.
But, it is also the most rewarding and satisfying of all human endeavours.
You can call me a fool all you want if that's what makes you happy. But I still have NO desire or intention to either get married OR have children. IF I happened to "meet someone" who started pressuring me into either marriage and/or motherhood, he will be DUMPED in a New York minute. Does that answer your question a little better?
You're missing the point of that line of criticism. To put it into Rumsfeldian terms, what we're dealing with here is an "unknown known." You have one group of people, those who say they don't want to have children, and there are two outcomes possible, they don't want to have children or they do want to have children. A very large segment of those who claim that they don't want to have children eventually change their mind and do want to have children.
I can try kids without having any, just like I can try extroverted behavior without being an extrovert. I know I don't want one for the same reason I know I am not the other. And I see no reason to ruin my life and that of a child's simply because some people are not ok with the idea that I have stuff I'd rather do than breed.
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