Should Catlyn Jenner's medals and awards be taken from her?

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

The claim of some transgender activists is that a MTF transgender was actually born a female/woman - and therefore should compete in women's athletic events. In this, they claim Catlyn Jenner was actually born a woman/female.

However, she didn't enter events for women, but for men - when she was NEVER a man according to the transgender activist claims. Thus, Jenner was never eligible to enter any even as a male. She has openly admitted she is MTF transgender.

Jenner was inducted into the United States National Track and Field Hall of Fame in 1980, the Olympic Hall of Fame in 1986, the and the Connecticut Sports Hall of Fame in 1994, and the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame in 2010 - all upon the LIE that she was a man and all with the now known fraud that Jenner was a female.

EVERY medal she won was her falsely entering competition as a man. Every honor falsely obtained. Retroactively taking away athletic awards is what is done when it was later learned the person was not eligible to compete or was later disqualified for any reason.

IF the claim of transgender activists that MTF transgender should be in female events is true, then every award, every gold medal and every honor she received all are now known should have never happened because she never should have entered any male competitions. Upon her later confession that she was never a man, all her medals, awards and honors should be stripped from her.

Lack of knowledge by Jenner is not excuse, just as it is no excuse to say "I didn't know using that health supplement was prohibited" or even "someone must have put it in my food, I didn't know." Failing a drug test - even after the fact - causes the award to be retroactively taken away. The same for entering as the wrong sex/gender - whether knowingly doing so or not.

Which one is it? Jenner was born a male/man, or born a female/woman? Pick one. If the latter, all medals and awards should be stripped from Catlyn Jenner.

Common Sense 1 · Feb 16, 2020

Silly poll and dismal choices.........

And no Jenner won the medals/awards fair and square! Next......

Crosscheck · Feb 16, 2020

Yes, we need to go back into time and correct wrongs.

Trump needs to go back in time correct the wrong he did and remarry his first wife. The Real Mrs. Donald Trump.

OrphanSlug · Feb 16, 2020

joko104 said:
EVERY medal she won was her falsely entering competition as a man. Every honor falsely obtained. Retroactively taking away athletic awards is what is done when it was later learned the person was not eligible to compete or was later disqualified for any reason.

IF the claim of transgender activists that MTF transgender should be in female events is true, then every award, every gold medal and every honor she received all are now known should have never happened because she never should have entered any male competitions. Upon her later confession that she was never a man, all her medals, awards and honors should be stripped from her.

The poll is just as ridiculous as this part of the OP quoted here.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

OrphanSlug said:
The poll is just as ridiculous as this part of the OP quoted here.

How is it ridiculous? The poll is whether the claim that a MTF transgender was born female or not? If born female, Jenner was never eligible to enter male-only events. It is that simple a question. It can't be diametric opposite claims depending upon the political agenda.

What if...? · Feb 16, 2020

No.

But they definitely should be melted down and poured down trump's throat.

(Stupid thread gets stupid reply)

OrphanSlug · Feb 16, 2020

joko104 said:
How is it ridiculous? The poll is whether the claim that a MTF transgender was born female or not? If born female, Jenner was never eligible to enter male-only events. It is that simple a question. It can't be diametric opposite claims depending upon the political agenda.

Your political agenda is probably more worth discussing, as you are trying to weaponize what Catlyn Jenner is saying now in some effort to suggest Bruce Jenner did something back then.

goldkam · Feb 16, 2020

The poll itself is flawed and the question is premised on ones actual gender, yet ignores the emotions, experiences, feeling etc... attached to such a decision.

calamity · Feb 16, 2020

Would that not only apply if Bruce was Cait and now declared himself male? If she won male events, all is well.

goldkam · Feb 16, 2020

joko104 said:
How is it ridiculous? The poll is whether the claim that a MTF transgender was born female or not? If born female, Jenner was never eligible to enter male-only events. It is that simple a question. It can't be diametric opposite claims depending upon the political agenda.

The poll is flawed. This is not a matter what this person was or was not at that point in time, its about the decisions they make. I think the journey, feelings, emotions and treatment are extremely difficult, and whilst I am still forming my opinion on this matter more broadly, I don't believe we can start placing labels on a person at points in time based on individually set norms and practises.

This person presented as a man at that point in time and for a reason have become a woman, I think without over complicating it, it is as simple as that.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

goldkam said:
The poll is flawed. This is not a matter what this person was or was not at that point in time, its about the decisions they make. I think the journey, feelings, emotions and treatment are extremely difficult, and whilst I am still forming my opinion on this matter more broadly, I don't believe we can start placing labels on a person at points in time based on individually set norms and practises.

This person presented as a man at that point in time and for a reason have become a woman, I think without over complicating it, it is as simple as that.

But the claim is that they were born female/a woman in a man's body.

In athletics, "I didn't know" is NEVER an excuse. If it later learned a competitor was ineligible, the award is taken back from that person. Athletics is not a psychological or mental competition. It is a physical competition. If Jenner was born a woman/female, then she was never eligible to compete as a male in male-only events.

Or can it be both ways? That any male can - day to day - decide whether or not he/she is a man or woman - depending on which best served to the advantage of him/her?

goldkam · Feb 16, 2020

joko104 said:
But the claim is that they were born female/a woman in a man's body.

Thats my point the claim is far too simplistic and is looking at this from a 1 dimensional perspective, when in fact it is far more complicated.

I don't know the complete details of the example and I don't believe it really matters. What matters is how the person presented themselves at the point in time that is in question, because trying to label and look in hindsight doesn't do justice to the person, the situation or how they may have felt.

In athletics, "I didn't know" is NEVER an excuse. If it later learned a competitor was ineligible, the award is taken back from that person. Athletics is not a psychological or mental competition. It is a physical competition. If Jenner was born a woman/female, then she was never eligible to compete as a male in male-only events.

You ignore and show no regard for the person, how they may have felt and the greater societal pressures that existed. Its a very similar process and situation as people coming out about their sexuality. What your comments show is that for whatever reason you fail to understand the complexity of the matter and you live in this very narrow minded world whereby you fail to understand the issue at hand. Your more worried about putting a persons actions or inactions into question, as opposed to accepting the challenging and difficult nature of this situation and process by using hindsight as a means to criticise. This kind of matter cannot be placed in a yes or no box, it just cannot.

Or can it be both ways? That any male can - day to day - decide whether or not he/she is a man or woman - depending on which best served to the advantage of him/her?

Once again you show insensitivity in understanding the issue. I don't believe someone can change gender day to day for some sort of gain but some people find themselves confused and unsure as they go on an emotional roller coaster, many of whom don't have support whether that be from family, friends or society.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

goldkam said:
Thats my point the claim is far too simplistic and is looking at this from a 1 dimensional perspective, when in fact it is far more complicated.

I don't know the complete details of the example and I don't believe it really matters. What matters is how the person presented themselves at the point in time that is in question, because trying to label and look in hindsight doesn't do justice to the person, the situation or how they may have felt.

You ignore and show no regard for the person, how they may have felt and the greater societal pressures that existed. Its a very similar process and situation as people coming out about their sexuality. What your comments show is that for whatever reason you fail to understand the complexity of the matter and you live in this very narrow minded world whereby you fail to understand the issue at hand. Your more worried about putting a persons actions or inactions into question, as opposed to accepting the challenging and difficult nature of this situation and process by using hindsight as a means to criticise. This kind of matter cannot be placed in a yes or no box, it just cannot.

Once again you show insensitivity in understanding the issue. I don't believe someone can change gender day to day for some sort of gain but some people find themselves confused and unsure as they go on an emotional roller coaster, many of whom don't have support whether that be from family, friends or society.

Who has no sensitivity is you towards females who spend years and thousands of hours of hard work, focus and pain - which you claim is absolutely nothing and you don't give a damn - all because some guy says "I feel like a woman."

I gather you are a person that believes that everyone should just be given a "participant" trophy in athletics and everyone gets an equal grade in school too. Competition has NOTHING to do with being "sensitive" to the "emotional roller coaster" needs of others - and declaring a pity party doesn't change that.

This is about gay MTF transgender trashing women and stealing all their efforts, given they don't like women anyway. That is the history of male discrimination against women. ANY AND EVERY excuse to reduce women to nothing but existing to serve men - in this instance millions of women are to be sacrificed for the benefit of a few male gay transgenders who feel like a woman at the time they decide to go steal from women - claiming they then proved they are superior at being a female than a real female.

Where do you show the SLIGHTEST compassion or concern for females - millions who go into athletics? You don't, not one word - but you sob so greatly for 1/10,000th the number of males wanting the awards and all the money, status and benefits women finally were starting to get for themselves.

You are just worshiping the progressive slogan of the moment, nothing else. You don't "understand the issue" nor do you care by your messages. I have a married gay daughter currently in the military. Men like Ecofarm and you try to jam her up all the time because they, too, only care about males. A young friend of ours in our house many times, we had bought him a car, his furniture and put up a deposit for his apt was murdered by a Muslim in the Pulse nightclub. We've had LGBT rights meetings in our home.

I "dated" a SRS MTF transexual (had sex reassignment surgery, not "transgender") in the past. But I also threw a self-declared MTF transgender (male with testicles and penis absurdly dressed clownishly as a female) physically out of our home once too after s/he got in the face of a lesbian activist lawyer who refused to use female pronounces - and when s/he started ranting in her face so much his/her spit was hitting her face - for which she dropped him to the floor with a hard knew into his "woman's testicles" - asking her/him "do you FEEL like a woman now?"

Nor does it matter to you that the most well known MTF transgender on this forum entirely disagrees - intensely - with you.

I fully "understand the complexity" of the matter. You recite slogans. This is your opinion: whatever gay MEN want, gay men should get no matter if it victimized 10,000,000 females and every female from now until the end of time. That is your stance. It's all about what males want, only about what males need. Women dirt under their feet, exist solely to service males, and should leave everything having to do with careers and athletics TO YOU MALES. IT IS 100% about YOU as a male. No one understands YOU as a male.

Historically - and now - what men need most of all is to prove their superiority and dominance over females - even now to prove they are superior at being females too. By your messages you are such a male. You only care about male rights, and to hell with the needs of any females.

You don't think females should not ever involve in sports anyway, do you? Or is it that you think they instead should always lose to males?

goldkam · Feb 16, 2020

joko104 said:
Who has no sensitivity is you towards females who spend years and thousands of hours of hard work, focus and pain - which you claim is absolutely nothing and you don't give a damn - all because some guy says "I feel like a woman."

Firstly I never mentioned anything about other woman and their energy and dedication to training, you just introduced that into the conversation quite manipulatively. Interestingly your trying to create a situation which has never happened and in turn trying to stir a debate and create an issue out of a non-issue.

I don't ignore or disregard their effort, rather I applaud and support it. You show such disrespect and disregard for people who are transgender, so I suggest you grow up and open your eyes we live in 2020 not 1950.

Can I just clarify you don't support people who are transgender?

I gather you are a person that believes that everyone should just be given a "participant" trophy in athletics and everyone gets an equal grade in school too. Competition has NOTHING to do with being "sensitive" to the "emotional roller coaster" needs of others - and declaring a pity party doesn't change that.

Once again you assume things and try to make this some personal debate. I support competition. I support having winners and losers. I support having different grades at school.

Considering the issue is transgender people in competition and the fact they do struggle with unique issues as others struggle with their own issues. Its not a pity party its fact. Once again you cannot form a mature response, we live in 2020 not 1950.

People like you are serious problem in society. Just disgraceful. Show some respect to the issue.

This is about gay MTF transgender trashing women and stealing all their efforts, given they don't like women anyway. That is the history of male discrimination against women. ANY AND EVERY excuse to reduce women to nothing but existing to serve men - in this instance millions of women are to be sacrificed for the benefit of a few male gay transgenders who feel like a woman at the time they decide to go steal from women - claiming they then proved they are superior at being a female than a real female.

I don't support anyone undermining the work of others. But your view is so biased its premised on hate. You obviously don't like or respect transgender people...thats discrimination.

You are so sinister and hateful on this issue. The situation you are trying to make up is not happening....your creating an issue out of a non-issue. You reduce the 'few male gay transgenders' to nothing more than a thing in society. You don't care. You have no respect.

Where do you show the SLIGHTEST compassion or concern for females - millions who go into athletics? You don't, not one word - but you sob so greatly for 1/10,000th the number of males wanting the awards and all the money, status and benefits women finally were starting to get for themselves.

Don't now manipulate the topic of our discussion. We were discussing transgender people and how this worked into sport and who they were. Now you have introduced a new topic and haven't given me the chance to comment on it. You not only hate and show no respect.....you also manipulate the conversations.

You are just worshiping the progressive slogan of the moment, nothing else. You don't "understand the issue" nor do you care by your messages. I have a married gay daughter currently in the military. Men like Ecofarm and you try to jam her up all the time because they, too, only care about males. A young friend of ours in our house many times, we had bought him a car, his furniture and put up a deposit for his apt was murdered by a Muslim in the Pulse nightclub. We've had LGBT rights meetings in our home.

In fact I am not progressive, I know you must be shocked since you like stereotyping people. I just like justice and even a bit of respect as well. Transgender people are treated disgustingly in society and whilst its a complex and charged issue they at least need to be shown respect. As any human being should. Not special treatment just respect.

I "dated" a SRS MTF transexual (had sex reassignment surgery, not "transgender") in the past.

I was not there and will not comment on that as I don't know what may or may not have happened. I find it interesting it takes one experience with two people of that nature for you to stereotype everyone in that category. That is simply not how life works.

CaughtInThe · Feb 16, 2020

hahahaha

Hawkeye10 · Feb 16, 2020

Hell No they should not be erased from history CCCP Style....at the time they were won he was indispensably male

goldkam · Feb 16, 2020

joko104 said:
Nor does it matter to you that the most well known MTF transgender on this forum entirely disagrees - intensely - with you.

How you treat and speak about transgender people is disrespectful and hateful. I don't who I may be going against you know absolutely nothing about me, who I know or what I have experienced. That statement means nothing.

I fully "understand the complexity" of the matter. You recite slogans.

I don't think you actually do understand the complexity of the issue. Once again you stereotype. You may struggle to understand that I am typing this with no external influence....I have no agenda and no slogans stop trying to build a smokescreen around your lack of respect.

This is your opinion: whatever gay MEN want, gay men should get no matter if it victimized 10,000,000 females and every female from now until the end of time. That is your stance. It's all about what males want, only about what males need. Women dirt under their feet, exist solely to service males, and should leave everything having to do with careers and athletics TO YOU MALES. IT IS 100% about YOU as a male. No one understands YOU as a male.

You have a chronic inability to tell the truth. That is not my opinion and I call you out on such a lie. Why are we suddenly discussing gay men....this was about those who are transgender.

If your going to make claims like you have support it with fact. Where are the 10,000,000 females who were victimised by gay males? I don't support the poor treatment of woman, I don't support the differential treatment between sexualities and I don't support the denying of facts.

In regards to how you have stereotyped males and managed to manipulate this entire conversation into one about womens rights. I want to clear up your misleading claims.

- I support womens rights. There is a long history of disregard, discrimination and a lack of respect against woman and I don't support that. I also don't support discrimination against those who are transgender.

- There has been progress but there is still a long way to come in regards to pay, cultural change, discrimination, domestic violence among many other things.

- I will not be stereotyped or bullied by someone about being a male. I have nothing but respect for woman and you CANNOT make comments about me without actually knowing who I am and what I have experienced. So shame on you. You are a hypocrite. You disrespect me by championing womens rights and their place in society yet treat me as a male like absolute trash undermining my rights and position in society. You also go on to undermined transgender people as well. What a double standard you have.

You don't think females should not ever involve in sports anyway, do you? Or is it that you think they instead should always lose to males?

Yes females should be involved in sport. Males should be involved in sport. Transgender people should be involved in sport.

It depends on the situation. I am not going to grant females this protective shield that ensures they win everything in society. In a workplace or sport where men and woman wilfully go up against one another if a woman beats a man or a man beats a woman its to be accepted.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

goldkam said:
How you treat and speak about transgender people is disrespectful and hateful. I don't who I may be going against you know absolutely nothing about me, who I know or what I have experienced. That statement means nothing.

I don't think you actually do understand the complexity of the issue. Once again you stereotype. You may struggle to understand that I am typing this with no external influence....I have no agenda and no slogans stop trying to build a smokescreen around your lack of respect.

- I support womens rights. There is a long history of disregard, discrimination and a lack of respect against woman and I don't support that. I also don't support discrimination against those who are transgender.

- There has been progress but there is still a long way to come in regards to pay, cultural change, discrimination, domestic violence among many other things.

- I will not be stereotyped or bullied by someone about being a male. I have nothing but respect for woman and you CANNOT make comments about me without actually knowing who I am and what I have experienced. So shame on you. You are a hypocrite. You disrespect me by championing womens rights and their place in society yet treat me as a male like absolute trash undermining my rights and position in society. You also go on to undermined transgender people as well. What a double standard you have.

Yes females should be involved in sport. Males should be involved in sport. Transgender people should be involved in sport.

It depends on the situation. I am not going to grant females this protective shield that ensures they win everything in society. In a workplace or sport where men and woman wilfully go up against one another if a woman beats a man or a man beats a woman its to be accepted.

You openly support discrimination against females on behalf of males who want to enter female-only competition - no different than claiming old men like you should be able to play football on a team limited to little children - "because you feel young."

The majority of MTF are gay. There are exceptions, like Renae - and accordingly Renae fully acknowledges the physiological differences between someone born with the generic SEX of male over female, which is an entirely different matter than "gender."

No, you look down on females, you are fine with - even support - females being punished, basically banned, from serious athletics SPECIFICALLY because of what makes them female from evolution - all related to childbearing and childrearing. Everything that actually is the difference between females and males are all traits NO MTF transgender nor transexual can every obtain.

Males don't have the weight of breasts.
Males don't have wide hips.
Males don't have shorter legs per height for a lower center of gravity - safer in pregnancy and carrying a child on her wide hip not to trip and fall.
Females burn less calories per food consumption - being more efficient with food because sometimes she'll be eating for 2 and because when food becomes scarce, males tend to eat first - this means also slower energy conversion to muscles usage. Males don't have a menstrual cycle.

EVERYTHING in real terms that separates females from males are all traits NO transgender can ever have BECAUSE THEY ALL RELATE TO PREGNANCY, CHILDBIRTH and FEEDING children with her own body. Greater physical power is how males have always been able to dominate women - literally by beating them. You fully support males beating women. Physically beating them - claiming it is because you feel sorry for transgender males and don't give a damn about any female who won't accept she was born to be beaten by men - her punishment for being female by males if she enters any athletic competition.

You have NO respect for what makes a female a female. I don't give a damn if a male wants to think of him/herself as a "woman." Gender has NOTHING to do with athletics.

For the rules, I can not really write my true opinion of men who support such grotesque abuse and trivialization of females as you in your message. I read NOTHING indicating ANY respect of females - only you sobbing for men who want to steal from females, being too much losers to compete against other males nor competing against others like themselves.

Loser men like women to be beaten. Such men are scum, regardless of their diversionary rationalizations.

As women increasingly enter athletics and gain income and benefits that otherwise still would 100% go to males, males like you found a way to get male to beat - literally physically beat in physical competitions - females. Don't pretend you believe in equality nor actually do respect females in TRUE respect. I respect females because of what makes them female. YOU declare that is NOTHING, absolutely nothing. You claim what makes them female is NOTHING, irrelevant to being a woman. You could not more insult and trivialize females.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

Crosscheck said:
Yes, we need to go back into time and correct wrongs.

Trump needs to go back in time correct the wrong he did and remarry his first wife. The Real Mrs. Donald Trump.

View attachment 67273907

^ Your message is grotesque hate mongering against elderly women. But hate is the core of progressive dogma. Without hatred, there is little left.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

goldkam said:
I am not going to grant females this protective shield that ensures they win everything in society. In a workplace or sport where men and woman wilfully go up against one another if a woman beats a man or a man beats a woman its to be accepted.

I dissected that paragraph out. Rather than write it all out, that indicates serious hang-ups and declared victimhood by you by females. That paragraph reads like it is straight out of incel materials.

The topic is not how you suffer across all of society as a male by evil females or your perception of discrimination against males on behalf of females. This topic is singular - genetic males entering female-only athletic competitions being genetic males. Nothing else.

It has nothing to do with "wilfully." That's why those 3 are suing, isn't it?

You accept males beating women in physical competitions limited only to females. Of course you do. You even declare is should be a human and civil right males have towards females.

joko104 · Feb 16, 2020

I defy any of you to show any final governing body with a majority of females that has authorized on their on actions (rather than laws passed by males or executive orders by a male president) for genetic males to compete in female-only events. In fact, if you explore this direction by the Olympics guess who leads it on the committee? A transgender male to female.

This is all about keeping women down, to steal all the money and benefits of women in athletics - and the status, wealth, influence and even political influence this gives women. This is 100% intolerable to most progressive Democrats - why increasingly they are supporting old white men for president. The majority of progressive Democrats are NOT liberals. They are the antithesis of liberalism.

TheEconomist · Feb 17, 2020

joko104 said:
I defy any of you to show any final governing body with a majority of females that has authorized on their on actions (rather than laws passed by males or executive orders by a male president) for genetic males to compete in female-only events. In fact, if you explore this direction by the Olympics guess who leads it on the committee? A transgender male to female.

This is all about keeping women down, to steal all the money and benefits of women in athletics - and the status, wealth, influence and even political influence this gives women. This is 100% intolerable to most progressive Democrats - why increasingly they are supporting old white men for president. The majority of progressive Democrats are NOT liberals. They are the antithesis of liberalism.

In their view, the welfare and status of women must be sacrificed. The condition of women in our society has never been anything but an egotistic political ploy centered around their need to display their own moral superiority. They feel such a need to parade on their high horse, that when a person with greater reach, muscular mass, bone density and bigger limbs send a top female martial artist to the hospital in what was a predictable bloodshed, they accused people who were shocked of bigotry.

Frankly, I have absolutely nothing against transpeople. If you have come to believe it is better for you to go through large changes to live as a member of the opposite sex, I wish you the best of luck. I pay more attention to what I will cook for diner than I do about these things. But some activists have decided to make themselves spokespersons for all transpeople and they have decided that denying basic facts of biology was politically expedient and use their fringe ideology to bully people into compliance.

You're right: they're not liberals. I am a liberal, a real one. I believe in individual rights and liberties, in judging people solely based on their character, in equality of opportunities (but not of outcomes), in letting people define for themselves what it means to live a good life, in science, in the rule of law and I find markets to (generally) be wonderful mechanism for diffusing decisions across masses of people. The people who prop up the nonsense you and I described believe in exactly none of the above. They believe that rights can be decreed in an out of existence by the rule of the majority, that people should be judged based on their status as victims, in equality of outcomes, in defining themselves and on behalf of other people what living a good life means, in distorting or ignoring science whenever convenient, in breaking the law whenever convenient and find markets to be appalling... They're the antithesis of liberalism.

TheEconomist · Feb 17, 2020

As for the main question, my answer is a simple no. I am not a fan of re-writing history, even portions thereof.

joko104 · Feb 17, 2020

TheEconomist said:
In their view, the welfare and status of women must be sacrificed. The condition of women in our society has never been anything but an egotistic political ploy centered around their need to display their own moral superiority. They feel such a need to parade on their high horse, that when a person with greater reach, muscular mass, bone density and bigger limbs send a top female martial artist to the hospital in what was a predictable bloodshed, they accused people who were shocked of bigotry.

Frankly, I have absolutely nothing against transpeople. If you have come to believe it is better for you to go through large changes to live as a member of the opposite sex, I wish you the best of luck. I pay more attention to what I will cook for diner than I do about these things. But some activists have decided to make themselves spokespersons for all transpeople and they have decided that denying basic facts of biology was politically expedient and use their fringe ideology to bully people into compliance.

You're right: they're not liberals. I am a liberal, a real one. I believe in individual rights and liberties, in judging people solely based on their character, in equality of opportunities (but not of outcomes), in letting people define for themselves what it means to live a good life, in science, in the rule of law and I find markets to (generally) be wonderful mechanism for diffusing decisions across masses of people. The people who prop up the nonsense you and I described believe in exactly none of the above. They believe that rights can be decreed in an out of existence by the rule of the majority, that people should be judged based on their status as victims, in equality of outcomes, in defining themselves and on behalf of other people what living a good life means, in distorting or ignoring science whenever convenient, in breaking the law whenever convenient and find markets to be appalling... They're the antithesis of liberalism.

I like liberals - real liberals. On REAL social issues, I am mostly liberal. Otherwise, I largely disagree and am either conservative or libertarian-ish, but I disagree respectfully because liberals use reasoning, logic and facts. Liberals do not scream "RACIST! BIGOT! RUSSIAN BOT!" as their argument.

I am open to persuasion or adjustment on some issues by liberals I disagree with if they really do make their case on a specific issues. Most liberals are open to persuasion or adjustment if the facts and logic really does leads to that conclusion.

TheEconomist · Feb 17, 2020

joko104 said:
I like liberals - real liberals. On REAL social issues, I am mostly liberal. Otherwise, I largely disagree and am either conservative or libertarian-ish, but I disagree respectfully because liberals use reasoning, logic and facts. Liberals do not scream "RACIST! BIGOT! RUSSIAN BOT!" as their argument.

These people have become completely insufferable. Fortunately, there are still many people hanging out on this forum that enjoy figuring out why a disagreement can subsist.

joko104 said:
I am open to persuasion or adjustment on some issues by liberals I disagree with if they really do make their case on a specific issues. Most liberals are open to persuasion or adjustment if the facts and logic really does leads to that conclusion.

I can watch Ben Shapiro and enjoy the show, even when he is defending positions as far from mine as they can possibly get. I think the worst example with him would be gay marriage. He's going as far as saying he wouldn't attend a gay marriage, or even the reception after the ceremony. He makes his points, I fundamentally disagree with some of premises, but at least I understand how difficult it can be to square some of his beliefs with this issue and why he thinks the way he does.

We'd probably disagree about other issues, just as you and I probably would disagree about other issues, but we all agree on the important point that people should be free to believe in what they want and should be also free to express those beliefs.

Should Catlyn Jenner's medals and awards be taken from her?