Should all muslim nations be secular?

[Real Talk]

Funny that for all our talk of secularism in muslim countries, israel hasnt been mentioned.
Ideally, I would like to see a secular Israel/Palestine where Israelis and Palestinians coexist in a single democratic state with a secular constitution guranteeing equal rights. The problem is, Israel would never allow this, as the palestinians would form a majority. So it looks like its ethno/religious apartheid for the forseeable future.

 

[Wessexman]

They don't have to be secular, they just have to allow freedom of religion and certain other freedoms. There is no need to force grey-blandness on them. England is not secular, we have an established church which I support.

 

[Real Talk]

As for the 'genocidal' nature of islam.
Compare it to the number of deaths caused by christian civilisations. We killed people on just about every piece of land on earth thats not covered by ice. More often than not, 'in the name of god'. You yourself are standing upon the conquests of genocide, are you not?

'

 

[jin1776]

As for the 'genocidal' nature of islam.
Compare it to the number of deaths caused by christian civilisations. We killed people on just about every piece of land on earth thats not covered by ice. More often than not, 'in the name of god'. You yourself are standing upon the conquests of genocide, are you not?

'

Islamic imperialism has a far higher death count than Western imperialism.

 

[jin1776]

Funny that for all our talk of secularism in muslim countries, israel hasnt been mentioned.
Ideally, I would like to see a secular Israel/Palestine where Israelis and Palestinians coexist in a single democratic state with a secular constitution guranteeing equal rights. The problem is, Israel would never allow this, as the palestinians would form a majority. So it looks like its ethno/religious apartheid for the forseeable future.

Of course they woud never allow that because whenever Muslims get in the majority the first thing they do away with is religious freedom. The Palestinians have already voted for a Islamist theocracy in case you forgot. Furthermore; unlike the vast majority of Muslim controlled countries, Israel has full and equal rights for all citizens regardless of race, sex, or religion.

 

[Real Talk]

Bull****. Arabs cant vote.
And the reason Israel wouldnt allow it is because it is founded as a JEWISH STATE. And powerful group want it to remain more or less exclusively so.

 

[Wessexman]

Islamic imperialism has a far higher death count than Western imperialism.

How so? The deaths under King Leopold in the Belgian Congo alone seem to dwarf Islam's.

 

[jin1776]

Bull****. Arabs cant vote.

Our you out of your mind? Arabs even have representation in the knesset. All Arab citizens of Israel have full and equal rights under Israeli law, I dare you to find the Israeli statute which discriminates against Israeli arabs.

And the reason Israel wouldnt allow it is because it is founded as a JEWISH STATE. And powerful group want it to remain more or less exclusively so.

No they don't want a people who have voted for a party which calls for the extermination of all the Jews on earth to be placed in the majority. Who the hell would? What you want is the destruction of Israel through a demographic shift, newsflash it aint gonna happen.

 

[jin1776]

How so? The deaths under King Leopold in the Belgian Congo alone seem to dwarf Islam's.

Dwarfed the 80 million dead in the Indian subcontinent alone? Doubtful.

 

[Real Talk]

What you want is the destruction of Israel through a demographic shift, newsflash it aint gonna happen.

No, it is not. I was speaking of ideals on both sides. I want both sides to coexist peacefully and deal with jurusalum like grown ups.

I know its not that easy. U could likely not bring either side to agree. But It would be nice.

 

[Wessexman]

Dwarfed the 80 million dead in the Indian subcontinent alone? Doubtful.

What about the five billion killed by the Duke of Luxembourg back in 1723?

The evidence you provided made a lot of claims but didn't support or cite them.

 

[jin1776]

What about the five billion killed by the Duke of Luxembourg back in 1723?

FTW?

The evidence you provided made a lot of claims but didn't support or cite them.

It did so cite a reference entitled "Rewriting Indian History" to back up the 80 million population decline during the Muslim occupation which is the only reason why I gave that citation in the first place.

 

[Wessexman]

It did so cite a reference entitled "Rewriting Indian History" to back up the
80 million population decline during the Muslim occupation which is the only reason why I gave that citation in the first place.

Yes but without seeing what this book is or any support being offered I'm extremely doubtful of its claims.

 

[jin1776]

Yes but without seeing what this book is or any support being offered I'm extremely doubtful of its claims.

I have numerous sources stating that K.S. Lals book puts the estimate at between 60 and 80 million here's 2 more:

The biggest holocaust in world history
Indian Epic Values: Rāmāyaṇa and Its ... - Google Book Search

 

[Wessexman]

I have numerous sources stating that K.S. Lals book puts the estimate at between 60 and 80 million here's 2 more:

The biggest holocaust in world history
Indian Epic Values: Râmâyaṇa and Its ... - Google Book Search

So? It doesn't make the book correct. It seems very dubious to me without more actual proof.

Also it seems to only be talking of Mongols. The Mongols were fond of doing things like that anyway. They did the same in China and weren't Muslims there.

 

[SquareMelon]

Turkey is a secular state, and politics is not influenced by Islam, its government cannot be associated with religion as a result of the secular state, it has good democratic values and a Westernized constitution, despite some very controversial laws in Turkey that does breach human rights and the dominance of the military, which is infact anti-islam and very pro ataturk (all of which i am sure is to be reformed in alignment with there accession into the EU).

Turkey does place restrictions on people practicing their personal religious beliefs. The law that passed few months ago where Muslim women wearing head scarfs were refused entry to public universities is an example. Those women were not practicing politics but simply execrsing their right to practice their religion. In a secular state, people can chose to associate with relgion or not have one as they wish. It is hardly a democracy when the army of the state who is not elected enforce its well on the peole who are not able to make changes as they desire.

So, should all muslim nations be aimed at establishing a secular state like turkey? Can an Islamic country have western, strong democratic values AND not be a secular state? Or is the religion severly incompatible with our basic requirements of human rights, such as freedom of speech, modernization etc?

I think individual countries should be able to make their own decisions about what system they adopt for their country. This should be based on the majority opinion of those citizens. I hardly believe many in the Muslim world think that turkey is a good example to follow nor they desire the full "western style values/democracies" as you allude to.

I think Islam can be the death of a country, extremism thrives, it takes a very "backward" stance on politics and limits the freedom of women and the ability of religious tolerance, tolerance regarding sexual orientation etc.
So, should all the governments of muslim nations scrap islam?

If you read history, you will know that the Islamic civiiazation contributed a lot to science and art for more than a 1200 years. Surely, if their religion was pulling them backward, those contributions would have been non existance.

Remmber, each society sets its own standards on social issues. What i and you find objectable, others find it great. The poeple who live in those countries are the ones who decide what to select as the form of their governments not outsiders. What works in one area of the world does not necessarily work in other areas.

 

[jin1776]

So? It doesn't make the book correct. It seems very dubious to me without more actual proof.

Also it seems to only be talking of Mongols. The Mongols were fond of doing things like that anyway. They did the same in China and weren't Muslims there.

KS Lal is a renowned Indian historian so just what the hell do you find dubious about it?

 

[Wessexman]

KS Lal is a renowned Indian historian so just what the hell do you find dubious about it?

Let's keep this discussion to one thread shall we.

 

[kaya'08]

Well, apparently lifting the head scarf ban was underminind the secular constitution, so from what i heard the military had some ground to make such a decision as to oppose the lifting of the ban. I think theres much paranoia regarding islam worming its way into turkish politics, which is why the military takes such a harsh stance on such policies that could allow the practice of islam to become more flexible. Ideally they want to isolate it and influence atheism more, probably to look less like an islamic state, which would probably help there admission into the EU, although i do believe Turkey will become more religiously mixed, and the amount of muslims in turkish society decrease, should it join the EU. They are very pro-ataturk in those respects, although i do myself believe the old man himself would have lifted the ban to account for the fact that there should be religious freedom, having been a huge admirier of western countries and there democracies. I do not believe modern Turkey lives up to his full expectations which are much higher than is currently being achieved here.

 

[Wessexman]

Well, apparently lifting the head scarf ban was underminind the secular constitution, so from what i heard the military had some ground to make such a decision as to oppose the lifting of the ban. I think theres much paranoia regarding islam worming its way into turkish politics, which is why the military takes such a harsh stance on such policies that could allow the practice of islam to become more flexible. Ideally they want to isolate it and influence atheism more, probably to look less like an islamic state, which would probably help there admission into the EU, although i do believe Turkey will become more religiously mixed, and the amount of muslims in turkish society decrease, should it join the EU. They are very pro-ataturk in those respects, although i do myself believe the old man himself would have lifted the ban to account for the fact that there should be religious freedom, having been a huge admirier of western countries and there democracies. I do not believe modern Turkey lives up to his full expectations which are much higher than is currently being achieved here.

I reckon Turkey should join the EU, they could have our place:mrgreen:.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Rejecting Maruaders

"Rejecting Maruaders"

Turkey does place restrictions on people practicing their personal religious beliefs. The law that passed few months ago where Muslim women wearing head scarfs were refused entry to public universities is an example. Those women were not practicing politics but simply execrsing their right to practice their religion. In a secular state, people can chose to associate with relgion or not have one as they wish. It is hardly a democracy when the army of the state who is not elected enforce its well on the peole who are not able to make changes as they desire.

You have no idea about the Role of the military in Turkish Politics (ln) and are speaking as a fool.

I think individual countries should be able to make their own decisions about what system they adopt for their country. This should be based on the majority opinion of those citizens. I hardly believe many in the Muslim world think that turkey is a good example to follow nor they desire the full "western style values/democracies" as you allude to.

A raw democracy is not a liberal democracy (ln), and tryany of the majority over the individual is just as pervasive as tyrany by any form of authoritarianism.

If you read history, you will know that the Islamic civiiazation contributed a lot to science and art for more than a 1200 years. Surely, if their religion was pulling them backward, those contributions would have been non existance.

Islamic Science # Decline

Ishmaelism has changed:

109. The Disbelievers -
Al-Kaafiroon
In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
(1) Say: 'O unbelievers,
(2) I serve not what you serve
(3) and you are not serving what I serve,
(4) nor am I serving what you have served,
(5) neither are you serving what I serve
(6) To you your religion, and to me my religion!'

Even today, Hejazis (ln) adhere to a more moderate interpretation of Islam than does the Wahhabi sect (ln) that arose in Nejd. (al saad)

Remmber, each society sets its own standards on social issues. What i and you find objectable, others find it great. The poeple who live in those countries are the ones who decide what to select as the form of their governments not outsiders. What works in one area of the world does not necessarily work in other areas.

Ishmaelism is a genetic religion for the preservation of the patriarchal lineage of ishmael, as the eponymous quraysh peoples, through traditions and laws detailed in the qurayn for the city state of hejaz.


Outside of hejaz all bets are off.

Monty Python - The Meaning Of Life - Part III- Fighting Each Other
GENERAL:
Well, of course, warfare isn't all fun. Right. Stop that! It's all very well to laugh at the Military, but, when one considers the meaning of life, it is a struggle between alternative viewpoints of life itself, and without the ability to defend one's own viewpoint against other perhaps more aggressive ideologies, then reasonableness and moderation could, quite simply, disappear. That is why we'll always need an army, and may God strike me down were it to be otherwise.
[zifff boom]

 

[Tecumseh1]

I do think Muslim nations can survive being secular, but not as well as it does today. Too much of Islam needs the support of the state to withhold it's values.

 

[bhkad]

In my personal opinion, government should be separate from religion in all countries, not just muslim ones.

I'm quite pleasantly surprised to find we agree on this.