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Cool. Then you shouldn't have any problem pointing out my flawed interpretation. :thumbs: Begin!
So divorce is not permissible in the case of physical and emotional abuse, non-support, or any other reason 21st century people run into?
Yes or no?
Still waiting for an answer from Mr. Glib....
So you are okay with spouses beating each other half to death, or perhaps completely to death?
No answer...
I want to know because you seem to like to cherry pick scripture. This very thread was occasioned by your comment in the gay marriage thread about the Anglican Priest who would no longer sign marriage licenses and you accused him (with no proof whatsoever) of performing second, third, and fourth marriages.
So if divorce is okay due to spousal abuse then the ex-spouse can get married again? Yes or no?
If we are going to have a "serious discussion", you need to get serious first. If you can't follow what I am saying maybe you don't belong in this discussion.
I don't even know what scripture you think you are quoting. Paleocon is the only one who has quoted any scripture. So tell me what "scripture" you think you are quoting and I'll pick you apart after that.
I never said divorce was okay due to spousal abuse thus your follow up question is irrelevant.
Fair enough. I'll agree with you on that. You probably don't know.
On a side note: I don't always respond immediately. It may take me a day or two to respond. Don't assume that I am ignoring you unless 3 days pass. If 3 days have passed it is then a safe bet that I am ignoring you. Otherwise I just haven't got around to it yet.
No, it isn't. I you don't think divorce is appropriate in the case of spousal abuse you need to explain why.
it's just me said:In fact, I DO know, I just wanted to know if you do.
it's just me said:If you don't answer I will know you were just trolling and you have nothing.
He actually gave us many churches, and they're pretty inconsistent also, on many subjects.
I never said that divorce was appropriate in the case of spousal abuse. NEVER! In my tradition we quote the following lines: "Until death do us part." "What God has joined together let no man put asunder." I take those things very seriously and I don't think there are any grounds for divorce whatsoever. This does not mean you can't move 3,000 miles away from the person if your safety is in question. It just means that you shouldn't get married again. The only benefit of divorce is the opportunity to marry again. You should never get the privilege to remarry. You already did a poor job picking a spouse. You will do a horrible job the second, third, fourth and fifth time too. (Side note: Second marriages are more likely to fail than first marriages.) This strict prohibition of divorce will encourage unmarried persons to choose wisely. A loose allowance for divorce encourages unmarried persons to choose recklessly because it really doesn't matter anyways. Why bother with the agony of screening a potential spouse for quality when it's ok to do that the first few years of marriage with little effort? You can always divorce if the person sucks. I am against divorce for any reason whatsoever because I think the wedding vows should be taken seriously or they should be changed. I suppose I should allow a little leniency for people who did use edited, re-written or abridged wedding vows that remove the lifelong commitment. The vows at my wedding were lifelong and contained no loopholes for spousal abuse. The Bible contains no loopholes for spousal abuse.
Matthew 19:9 HCSB And I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.
Matthew 5:32 HCSB But I tell you, everyone who divorces his wife, except in a case of sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
1 Corinthians 7:15 HCSB But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. A brother or a sister is not bound in such cases. God has called you to peace.
In the future you should just make that assumption from the start.
Wow, that's harsh.
Of course, Jesus forgave everyone who asked him, and commanded us (his body) to forgive every time we are asked. If we, as a body, cannot forgive someone for the actions of their (badly chosen) spouse, that's not being very forgiving. The RCC won't even serve you the Eucharist. In my reading of the Bible there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven by God, and it's not divorce, it's blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. That said, I think the Church is being incongrouous is she says "we can forgive you for divorce but if you get married again we are going to say you are committing adultery". There are many, many cases in which a divorce that occurred BEFORE anyone was a Christian comes back to haunt them, especially in the RCC, and the RCC is reconsidering that even now. But even the RCC will annul a marriage if the parishioner was not Christian or did not know what marriage was. A lot of people don't. Some think it's like dating, if it doesn't work out, you break up.
Let me explain what the conversation in Matthew was about: The Pharisees asked Jesus the question about divorce because they knew very well there were differeing opinions when it came to divorce among the Jews, and they wanted to see which side he was going to come down on. Jesus reminded them of what Deuteronomy 24:1-4 said:
“When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance."
Moses permitted this type of divorce, because, as Jesus said, he knew that men's hearts were hard, and indeed they are. BUT, Jesus' view of divorce had to do with God's original view of marriage, which, incindentally, was not only between a man and a woman only, but it was that the two should become one flesh. Since divorce is against God's original ordinance of marriage, to do so is evidence of hardness of heart and sin. That said, is there anything more sinful than spousal abuse, incest, or any other sin that I could name between husband and wife? I am sure there are people who have been beaten by their spouses who would rather have had the abusive spouse just leave and go to another.
So the conversation between Jesus and the Jews had more to do with their opinion of divorce vs. his opinion of divorce. But let's get back to the whole subject of sin in the first place. In my church we believe we are commanded to forgive every time we are asked. We serve them the Lord's Supper because if we do not, they will "not have life within them". (John 6:53)
If you can find a scripture that says we should not forgive a repentant sinner, I'd like to see it.
Probably.
The Bible is inconsistent on plural marriage:
and yet....
I don't think gay marriage is mentioned at all.
Matthew 19:8 -
“Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Such as?
You're not going to find much of anything supporting polygamy or divorce outside of the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, however, Christ makes it rather clear that a lot of things that were accepted in the Old Testament will no longer be allowed under the new law.
If God himself in human form says no divorce (unless you have a damn good reason for it) and no polygamy, I'm inclined to take his word for it. :shrug:
Where do I begin? Baptists certainly disagree with Catholics on many points of doctrine, neither agree with Mormons, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, you name it. Many churches, many sets of doctrine.
God founded only one of those.
According to my understanding of scripture, divorce is only permissible (not mandatory) if the spouse has committed adultery or if the spouse is a nonbeliever. It is also my understanding of scripture that remarriage is only permissible once the original spouse is no longer living.
With this information, which you are welcome to disagree with*, Should clergy or government officials be required to grant marital status to these applicants even though it is a direct violation of scripture?
Follow up question: Where is gay marriage mentioned in scripture?
*I will likely dismiss your argument if it is your opinion based upon popular culture without a scriptural basis. To minimize this risk use quotes from the Bible to make your case.
Would you mind loaning me a million dollars, and then "forgiving" me if I decide not to pay it back?
Where do I begin? Baptists certainly disagree with Catholics on many points of doctrine, neither agree with Mormons, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, you name it. Many churches, many sets of doctrine.
Jesus forgave ..... commanded us (his body) to forgive ...... If we, as a body, cannot forgive someone .... that's not being very forgiving .... only one sin that cannot be forgiven .... "we can forgive you .....
If you can find a scripture that says we should not forgive a repentant sinner, I'd like to see it.
So, we're going to dismiss the Old Testament entirely?
Forgiveness is not a doctrine.
Forgiveness isn't the standard that we are supposed to strive for.
To answer your question clergy shouldn't be required to grant marital status to applicants who violate their interpretation of scripture.
You can when it comes to doctrinal issues. It's still important to know about the Old Testament. You can't really argue with someone unless you both accept the same premise. Most Christians reject the Old Testament as doctrine. It's probably best to dismiss the Old Testament if you want to have a fair debate. If you don't want a fair and logical debate then you are free to bring up things from the Old Testament.
My God in Heaven, kid, forgiveness is why Jesus came and died...
Just what kind of church is this that you go to?
You'd better hope Jesus forgives you when your turn comes.
You DO know that the way of salvation is found in both the OT and the NT, don't you?
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