SEAL behind ‘The Terminal List’: The critics hate me but I’m proof non-woke books sell best

None of that comes as a surprise to Carr. But he says it does come as a surprise to the traditional publishing industry which he says has overlooked his audience: people who want fast-paced, all-American heroes.

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But, he said, his authenticity is what people want — and shows why Hollywood is not making hits.

“When Amazon and Simon & Schuster see the numbers and the trajectory they’re noticing that it is very different from any other property that they have. And they’re very happy that it’s happening,” he said.

“I think they [studio execs] are trying to figure it out, but they live in New York and Los Angeles and they have a hard time figuring out that terrain in between.

“And you’ll hear people talk about how they make movies for each other and really not for the masses, which is why the masses are always disappointed in what Hollywood produces in many cases.

“They knew that it hit something that they don’t usually hit in Hollywood. And that is really the people between New York and Los Angeles.

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Good article, but to be fair, I dont think the term woke applies when it comes to the book publishing industry, simply because the big publishing firms that used to dominate the market have been doing these things long before "woke" even entered the limelight.

For decades, big publishing has always been pushing the literary genre, you know, those highfalutin, pompous books written with flowery prose and all that (think James Joyce's Ulysses). While the critics love them and they win a lot of awards, these kinds of books also dont sell much when compared to action/adventure books, sci-fi and thrillers, which is why the big publishers have lost a lot of market share since self publishing took off.

But even before the rise of indie publishing, the best selling novelists of the 20th century were never literary writers either. The top selling writer of all time is Earl Stanley Gardner, the author of the Perry Mason books. The 1950s was dominated by Mickey Spillane and his Mike Hammer novels, and he famously said that readers "dont want caviar, they want peanuts." Numbers prove theres a big divide between what the critics want people to read, and what the public really prefers.

So what do we make of all this? If you want to be a writer and want praise, write a literary novel. If you want to make money, write the stuff that people want to read instead- the critics may hate you, but the mounds of cash sure makes it worthwhile.

This woke crap is only an issue for you folks on the right and it's stupid.

bongsaway said:

This woke crap is only an issue for you folks on the right and it's stupid.

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Its obvious you didnt even read what I wrote and went in here simply because you saw the word woke in the title and immediately defended it by pretending not to care, even though youre really upset by it. Thanks for proving me right.

Generations of hack/pulp writers have figured out this same formula. It's nothing new.

Nowadays, your really levelled up author will sell the film rights, videogames, a board game, a collectible card game, an encyclopedia of world lore, and a spin-off TV series.

They do all that but never finish the actual series of books it's all based on.

WillyPete said:

Generations of hack/pulp writers have figured out this same formula. It's nothing new.

Nowadays, your really levelled up author will sell the film rights, videogames, a board game, a collectible card game, an encyclopedia of world lore, and a spin-off TV series.

They do all that but never finish the actual series of books it's all based on.

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Exactly! I follow that same strategy.

PoS said:

Its obvious you didnt even read what I wrote and went in here simply because you saw the word woke in the title and immediately defended it by pretending not to care, even though youre really upset by it. Thanks for proving me right.

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Incorrect once again. I read it.

bongsaway said:

Incorrect once again. I read it.

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Now you did, only after you got called out on it.

PoS said:

Exclusive | SEAL behind ‘The Terminal List’: The critics hate me but I’m proof non-woke books sell best

Jack Carr served 20 years as a SEAL. He ignored the publishing elites and now his thriller series are a Hollywood hit starring Chris Pratt.

nypost.com

Good article, but to be fair, I dont think the term woke applies when it comes to the book publishing industry, simply because the big publishing firms that used to dominate the market have been doing these things long before "woke" even entered the limelight.

For decades, big publishing has always been pushing the literary genre, you know, those highfalutin, pompous books written with flowery prose and all that (think James Joyce's Ulysses). While the critics love them and they win a lot of awards, these kinds of books also dont sell much when compared to action/adventure books, sci-fi and thrillers, which is why the big publishers have lost a lot of market share since self publishing took off.

But even before the rise of indie publishing, the best selling novelists of the 20th century were never literary writers either. The top selling writer of all time is Earl Stanley Gardner, the author of the Perry Mason books. The 1950s was dominated by Mickey Spillane and his Mike Hammer novels, and he famously said that readers "dont want caviar, they want peanuts." Numbers prove theres a big divide between what the critics want people to read, and what the public really prefers.

So what do we make of all this? If you want to be a writer and want praise, write a literary novel. If you want to make money, write the stuff that people want to read instead- the critics may hate you, but the mounds of cash sure makes it worthwhile.

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Kind of like the Academy Awards. The members of the Academy usually vote for what they want, and for which actors and directors lobby them the hardest. Thats why I always liked the People’s Choice awards. They came in more like what people actually watched -not what a room full of stuffy people who probably don’t even watch movies wanted.

PoS said:

Now you did, only after you got called out on it.

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What's wrong with you PoS? Why do you insist on saying things about me that are just not accurate? I read your article and then posted my response. It's not my problem you refuse to accept that fact.

bongsaway said:

What's wrong with you PoS? Why do you insist on saying things about me that are just not accurate? I read your article and then posted my response. It's not my problem you refuse to accept that fact.

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Because its obvious youre lying. You only talked about the title instead of the OP, which is what the others in this thread have done, all except you. Its so easy to figure you out.

I've read (actually listened to ) the whole Terminal List series. Good stuff!

PoS said:

Exclusive | SEAL behind ‘The Terminal List’: The critics hate me but I’m proof non-woke books sell best

Jack Carr served 20 years as a SEAL. He ignored the publishing elites and now his thriller series are a Hollywood hit starring Chris Pratt.

nypost.com

Good article, but to be fair, I dont think the term woke applies when it comes to the book publishing industry, simply because the big publishing firms that used to dominate the market have been doing these things long before "woke" even entered the limelight.

For decades, big publishing has always been pushing the literary genre, you know, those highfalutin, pompous books written with flowery prose and all that (think James Joyce's Ulysses). While the critics love them and they win a lot of awards, these kinds of books also dont sell much when compared to action/adventure books, sci-fi and thrillers, which is why the big publishers have lost a lot of market share since self publishing took off.

But even before the rise of indie publishing, the best selling novelists of the 20th century were never literary writers either. The top selling writer of all time is Earl Stanley Gardner, the author of the Perry Mason books. The 1950s was dominated by Mickey Spillane and his Mike Hammer novels, and he famously said that readers "dont want caviar, they want peanuts." Numbers prove theres a big divide between what the critics want people to read, and what the public really prefers.

So what do we make of all this? If you want to be a writer and want praise, write a literary novel. If you want to make money, write the stuff that people want to read instead- the critics may hate you, but the mounds of cash sure makes it worthwhile.

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They sell more hamburger than T-bone steaks. Does that make hamburger better than than T-bones?


Looks like a pretty mix to me. The Post is full of shit as usual.

Loulit01 said:

They sell more hamburger than T-bone steaks. Does that make hamburger better than than T-bones?

25 Years of Bestselling Authors and Books

James Patterson and the Harry Potter series were two of the most dominant forces in books over the past 25 years, as our analysis of the bestseller list from 2004–2021 shows.

www.publishersweekly.com

Looks like a pretty mix to me. The Post is full of shit as usual.

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He never claimed to be the all-time bestseller, so your fallacy fails as usual.

The nerve of someone who is upset that a type A male who is not supposed to be relevant, makes the woke establishment look silly. But more importantly, cost them $$$ doing so.

Toxic masculinity sales. No matter how big a lid they try and put on it.

VySky said:

The nerve of someone who is upset that a type A male who is not supposed to be relevant, makes the woke establishment look silly. But more importantly, cost them $$$ doing so.

Toxic masculinity sales. No matter how big a lid they try and put on it.

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Theres nothing toxic about masculinity. Wokeists are just jealous because they dont have it.

PoS said:

Exclusive | SEAL behind ‘The Terminal List’: The critics hate me but I’m proof non-woke books sell best

Jack Carr served 20 years as a SEAL. He ignored the publishing elites and now his thriller series are a Hollywood hit starring Chris Pratt.

nypost.com

Good article, but to be fair, I dont think the term woke applies when it comes to the book publishing industry, simply because the big publishing firms that used to dominate the market have been doing these things long before "woke" even entered the limelight.

For decades, big publishing has always been pushing the literary genre, you know, those highfalutin, pompous books written with flowery prose and all that (think James Joyce's Ulysses). While the critics love them and they win a lot of awards, these kinds of books also dont sell much when compared to action/adventure books, sci-fi and thrillers, which is why the big publishers have lost a lot of market share since self publishing took off.

But even before the rise of indie publishing, the best selling novelists of the 20th century were never literary writers either. The top selling writer of all time is Earl Stanley Gardner, the author of the Perry Mason books. The 1950s was dominated by Mickey Spillane and his Mike Hammer novels, and he famously said that readers "dont want caviar, they want peanuts." Numbers prove theres a big divide between what the critics want people to read, and what the public really prefers.

So what do we make of all this? If you want to be a writer and want praise, write a literary novel. If you want to make money, write the stuff that people want to read instead- the critics may hate you, but the mounds of cash sure makes it worthwhile.

Click to expand...

I am not convinced it's impossible to write a good action/adventure science fiction/fantasy thriller book that is also woke.

But I suppose that depend how you personally define woke.

PoS said:

Theres nothing toxic about masculinity. Wokeists are just jealous because they dont have it.

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I blame it on some derp who gave them a trophy in little league because they are 'special' just like the MVP

The Mark said:

I am not convinced it's impossible to write a good action/adventure science fiction/fantasy thriller book that is also woke.

But I suppose that depend how you personally define woke.

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You can write anything you want. The question is will a lot of people buy it? Action adventure genres rely on tropes, and these tropes trend towards gung-ho male leads who kill hordes of people.

VySky said:

I blame it on some derp who gave them a trophy in little league because they are 'special' just like the MVP

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Women are huge fans of masculinity, thats why books like 50 Shades of Grey became bestsellers. They fantasize about being swept away by an Alpha male.

The ones who are against this are the uber anti-man feminists and wokesters, and theyre a small minority, but they have the loudest voices due to the mainstream media.

I think I'm done having people who don't read read explain literature to me. See ya!

PoS said:

Exclusive | SEAL behind ‘The Terminal List’: The critics hate me but I’m proof non-woke books sell best

Jack Carr served 20 years as a SEAL. He ignored the publishing elites and now his thriller series are a Hollywood hit starring Chris Pratt.

nypost.com

Good article, but to be fair, I dont think the term woke applies when it comes to the book publishing industry, simply because the big publishing firms that used to dominate the market have been doing these things long before "woke" even entered the limelight.

For decades, big publishing has always been pushing the literary genre, you know, those highfalutin, pompous books written with flowery prose and all that (think James Joyce's Ulysses). While the critics love them and they win a lot of awards, these kinds of books also dont sell much when compared to action/adventure books, sci-fi and thrillers, which is why the big publishers have lost a lot of market share since self publishing took off.

But even before the rise of indie publishing, the best selling novelists of the 20th century were never literary writers either. The top selling writer of all time is Earl Stanley Gardner, the author of the Perry Mason books. The 1950s was dominated by Mickey Spillane and his Mike Hammer novels, and he famously said that readers "dont want caviar, they want peanuts." Numbers prove theres a big divide between what the critics want people to read, and what the public really prefers.

So what do we make of all this? If you want to be a writer and want praise, write a literary novel. If you want to make money, write the stuff that people want to read instead- the critics may hate you, but the mounds of cash sure makes it worthwhile.

Click to expand...

Jane Austen is the first among those worthless woke writers.

She makes me wretch.

MAGA.

PoS said:

Good article, but to be fair, I dont think the term woke applies when it comes to the book publishing industry, simply because the big publishing firms that used to dominate the market have been doing these things long before "woke" even entered the limelight.

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So you're (rightly) criticising Carr for trying to spin his success in to some kind of "anti-woke" backlash? Much like the claims that some things fail because they're "woke" (rather than just not being very good), it sounds like his books are successful not because they're "non-woke" but because they're good. There is loads of stuff out there in a similar genre and style, it's just that most of it isn't successful because it isn't as good.

PoS said:

For decades, big publishing has always been pushing the literary genre, you know, those highfalutin, pompous books written with flowery prose and all that (think James Joyce's Ulysses).

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I think it's a little ironic that your example is over 100 years old though.

Publishing has long been about mass output. Loads of books are published and printed and only a few needed to sell well for them to make overall profits. It's also worth noting that the "highfalutin" literature and the basic adventure/sci-fi/thrillers (and shlock-romance you didn't include) are produced by the same companies, albeit under different divisions and imprints. The recent problems in the industry is largely down to a general collapse in a the market for physical books (which is also the reason there are so many recent efforts at screen adaptations of books like this one).

PoS said:

You can write anything you want. The question is will a lot of people buy it? Action adventure genres rely on tropes, and these tropes trend towards gung-ho male leads who kill hordes of people.

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Indeed.

But I find myself pondering the creation a scenario where such a character is also woke.

It'd be a bit of a challenge though, what with all the killing.

Science Fiction or Fantasy offers a handy solution though, because the hordes of enemies need not be people as we understand it.
OR could even be people who some kind of plot piece have made it justifiable to kill.

You could even have a realization period for the main character, where they don't want to but realize they must to survive.


Maybe that's not woke though. I'm not entirely sure what exactly that word means.

Loulit01 said:

I think I'm done having people who don't read read explain literature to me. See ya!

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LOL somebody call the waambulance!

HonestJoe said:

So you're (rightly) criticising Carr for trying to spin his success in to some kind of "anti-woke" backlash? Much like the claims that some things fail because they're "woke" (rather than just not being very good), it sounds like his books are successful not because they're "non-woke" but because they're good. There is loads of stuff out there in a similar genre and style, it's just that most of it isn't successful because it isn't as good.

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Theres always been an anti-woke backlash. Its the wokesters and the MSM who live in a bubble thinking they can tell others how to live their lives. And a book doesnt have to be "good" to be successful, all they have to do is capture the public zeitgeist.

I think it's a little ironic that your example is over 100 years old though.

Publishing has long been about mass output. Loads of books are published and printed and only a few needed to sell well for them to make overall profits. It's also worth noting that the "highfalutin" literature and the basic adventure/sci-fi/thrillers (and shlock-romance you didn't include) are produced by the same companies, albeit under different divisions and imprints. The recent problems in the industry is largely down to a general collapse in a the market for physical books (which is also the reason there are so many recent efforts at screen adaptations of books like this one).

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I cite Joyce because all the other lit authors since then ape his style.

Publishing isnt about mass output, but sales driven. But then you wonder why the big publishing firms hide their romance books under different imprints? Because they feel their main publishing brands are "above" the vulgar stuff, thats why. Theyre too shamed to admit its the genre books like crime, thrillers and romance that sell, not their high lit books. Those latter imprints operate on a loss, and its the other ones they hide under the table that makes them money.

The Mark said:

Indeed.

But I find myself pondering the creation a scenario where such a character is also woke.

It'd be a bit of a challenge though, what with all the killing.

Science Fiction or Fantasy offers a handy solution though, because the hordes of enemies need not be people as we understand it.
OR could even be people who some kind of plot piece have made it justifiable to kill.

You could even have a realization period for the main character, where they don't want to but realize they must to survive.


Maybe that's not woke though. I'm not entirely sure what exactly that word means.

Click to expand...

If you want to define woke, just read up on CRT, DEI, ESG, trans militancy, cancel culture and all that, or just watch South Park's Panderverse Special- itll tell you all you need to know with regards to what woke is.

PoS said:

Theres always been an anti-woke backlash. Its the wokesters and the MSM who live in a bubble thinking they can tell others how to live their lives. And a book doesnt have to be "good" to be successful, all they have to do is capture the public zeitgeist.

Click to expand...

We're talking about publishing though, and you said the word "woke" doesn't apply there so how can you support this as part of an "anti-woke" backlash?

PoS said:

I cite Joyce because all the other lit authors since then ape his style.

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Not that many I think (at least not successfully). The novelty of his style is one of the reasons he remains so well recognised. The point is that literature has long been a massively diverse art, probably more so than any other. There are never been any major blocker to writing, publishing and selling pretty much any book, even where large publishers may be chasing current fashions or avoiding possible controversy. The idea that the success of The Terminal Lists books is some amazing breakthrough some "woke" barrier in publishing is simply a lie. There are loads of books of a similar style and type published, a few successful but many less so. It's probably effective spin marketing for the Netflix shows though.

PoS said:

Publishing isnt about mass output, but sales driven.

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It's both. If you want to sell lots of things, you need to make lots of things. Books are relatively cheap to print though, especially in paperback, so they don't all need to be massive successes for an overall profitable business. Also, predicting which books will become massive success can be difficult, so having lots of options is good.

PoS said:

But then you wonder why the big publishing firms hide their romance books under different imprints? Because they feel their main publishing brands are "above" the vulgar stuff, thats why. Theyre too shamed to admit its the genre books like crime, thrillers and romance that sell, not their high lit books. Those latter imprints operate on a loss, and its the other ones they hide under the table that makes them money.

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You're right to an extent, because there is always a balance between art and business. Having the high literature books out there doesn't make the slightest difference to writers of other genres, just as having books out there you might consider "woke" doesn't either.

PoS said:

If you want to define woke...

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If you're raising the term, isn't it on you to define it? If you can't clearly describe the difference between "woke" and "non-woke"/"anti-woke" books, how can we discuss them?

HonestJoe said:

We're talking about publishing though, and you said the word "woke" doesn't apply there so how can you support this as part of an "anti-woke" backlash?

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I said it didnt apply historically, but it does now since your kind is the one making an issue out of it.

Not that many I think (at least not successfully). The novelty of his style is one of the reasons he remains so well recognised. The point is that literature has long been a massively diverse art, probably more so than any other. There are never been any major blocker to writing, publishing and selling pretty much any book, even where large publishers may be chasing current fashions or avoiding possible controversy. The idea that the success of The Terminal Lists books is some amazing breakthrough some "woke" barrier in publishing is simply a lie. There are loads of books of a similar style and type published, a few successful but many less so. It's probably effective spin marketing for the Netflix shows though.

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No one ever said that, so you made a strawman.

It's both. If you want to sell lots of things, you need to make lots of things. Books are relatively cheap to print though, especially in paperback, so they don't all need to be massive successes for an overall profitable business. Also, predicting which books will become massive success can be difficult, so having lots of options is good.

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Wrong again. Excess inventory costs money, so does renting shelves on book stores. If you had any knowledge in the publishing world, youd know that, but you dont.

You're right to an extent, because there is always a balance between art and business. Having the high literature books out there doesn't make the slightest difference to writers of other genres, just as having books out there you might consider "woke" doesn't either.

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Nope. Publishing firms just try to create their own trend by preaching what they think what a good book should be, and because they have some money to burn. Vanity projects is what they are. No different than what Hollywood does.

If you're raising the term, isn't it on you to define it? If you can't clearly describe the difference between "woke" and "non-woke"/"anti-woke" books, how can we discuss them?

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I wrote the terms down explaining what it was, and you left it out. You ought to brush up on your reading comprehension.