Hicup
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I'm having difficulty understanding the contents of your OP. Sentences like "Take Wigner's friend, but go further than that; assuming that "friends" need not be tied quantumly as entirely dependant of each other for it to be true." don't make any kind of grammatical sense, so I'm having to guess at your main meaning...I'm embarrassed to be posting to my own thread first. Come on. I know there are some scientists out here. I've read some very intelligent posts, grounded in the scientific method on this forum. My exercise has holes, and I invite criticism.
Tim-
The largest objects that have demonstrated wave/particle duality (in Young's double-slit experiment) have been buckyballs. That properly blew me away when I found out. They're huge!Unless you put photon detectors at the slits of course.
2-slit experiment > *
Schrodinger's Cat shows the problem of applying quantum theory, which works on a subatomic level, to objects which are not on that level.
The largest objects that have demonstrated wave/particle duality (in Young's double-slit experiment) have been buckyballs. That properly blew me away when I found out. They're huge!
I'm having difficulty understanding the contents of your OP. Sentences like "Take Wigner's friend, but go further than that; assuming that "friends" need not be tied quantumly as entirely dependant of each other for it to be true." don't make any kind of grammatical sense, so I'm having to guess at your main meaning...
The point of the many-worlds idea is that it eliminates (to some extent) the idea of a waveform being in flux. Every quantum interaction instantaneously creates a world/universe where each different possible outcomes is determined; so in the thought experiment, two universes are created; one where that cat will live, one where it will die. You just don't know which universe you are in until you open the box.iangb -
My postulate, is that, if one accepts that there are in infinite number of space time continuums (Which conventional physics seems to be heading) then the observation of the cat being dead or alive is what triggers the separation of timelines. The criticism of Schrödinger, in his experiment, is that the cat, and as you point out, the Geiger counter are measurements, and thus, move the determination further up, which results in the human observer merely getting second hand news. Essentially the system is not closed, if it can be measured.
But given the above, and if the effects of observing the particle are felt at the speed of space-time, it is logically consistent to conclude that, an observer wouldn't "feel" the effects of the determinate particle immediately, or everywhere at once in the universe. What I mean by this is, is at the moment the particle is measured, everything in the universe that is determined (Destined) to interact with that space time continuum must have something physically that ties it to the timeline. What is this physical thing? If the particle is potentially observable in one place, once observed, it ceases to have any other potential of being observed directly, elsewhere. Unless, it can be in two places at the same space time? If it can be in two places at once, then so too can two versions of Wigner's friend. What's stopping either version of Wigner's friend interacting with the opposite (destined) determined version of Wigner? Essentially, the Wigner that was supposed to hear the bad news, got swapped with the Wigner that got the good news? If this can happen, then we prove that the particle is everywhere at once, if it can't happen, because at the moment the cat, the counter, or Wigner's friend made the measurement, the determination was set, then we prove that in the first instant the universe, as we know it, is set, (Observed) everything else is determined. If the universe is determined then Schrödinger's Cats fate, has already been determined, and the experiment is useless.
This postulate brings up some interesting questions. Does space time have a speed limit? Can there be free will? Is the simple act of a measurement enough to tie a particle physically with a particular space time continuum? If tied to a space time continuum, once observed, then wouldn't that fixed timeline begin at the very first instant?
Thoughts?
Tim-
if our sun were to spontaneously vanish this instant, Earth would continue to feel it's gravitational pull for another 7 minutes or so (the same amount of time it takes light to get to us from the sun).
Magnetism is part of electromagnetism. An electromagnetic field propagates at the speed of light - photons are an example of this, in fact.it wouldn't, gravity isn't a wave, it acts instantly, like magnetism.
You just don't know which universe you are in until you open the box
Another one altogether!But what you never open the box? What universe are you in now?
Tim-
it wouldn't, gravity isn't a wave, it acts instantly, like magnetism.
Another one altogether!
No, the cat is definitely alive or dead, no matter if you open the box or not. Like I said, you're in one of those universes already, you just don't know which one.But is the cat alive or dead? According to you, opening the box tells you which universe you're in, but the cat already knows. In fact, in the first instant, way before the cat, and way before human life, the particles were fixed. Now we perform the experiment in the here and now. Is the cat still considered to be both alive and dead until you open the box; even though the outcome has already been set by the first instant of the universe. If yoo'd agree that it isn't set, then you must accept that the standard model of QM, QED is missing something.
Tim-
Disclaimer: I saw no area to post on the metaphysical, so i posted it here. If there is a more appropriate place please move it there, just let me know where so i can find it.
What follows is an exercise in pure logical deduction based on parameters that are not necessarily well defined, but accepted as part of the standard model in particle physics.
Copenhagen interpretation says that a system stops being a superposition of states and becomes either one or the other when an observation takes place.
Schrödinger through his cat, Link showed meta-physically, that a state can be any number of states, but not necessarily observed directly for it to be true.
In my opinion, the realization and cognizant function of the observer, is only directly related to the state of the observer, and thus, any other interaction that changes the existential state of that interacted with.
You have lost me here also.Take Wigner's friend, but go further than that; assuming that "friends" need not be tied quantumly as entirely dependant of each other for it to be true. In this scenario, the friend carries through the wave-function of the state. The state being whatever the cat's state was after opening the box.
Now applying Everetts Many World Interpretation, we now have a dilemma; the dilemma being that if Everett is correct and parallele universes exist, then what would happen if Wigner's friend met it's identical (Parallele universal) Wigner?
For example, whether the cat is dead or alive is directly related to the instant observation, and thus, as a direct extrapolation, said to be only static when observed; or observable only when directly measured. For instance, if Wigner was the observer and the cat was dead, he carries the wave-function to that of the cat being dead at that monent of observation. At this time, a parallele universe is set in motion, where at the parallel moment of the observation, Wigner would have obsered a living cat. Now, Wigner's friend, likewise, observes the cat being dead, like the instant (Wigner alive scenario) observation, and he too begins a parallel universe where the cat is alive.
MW assumes that there are just such barriers, and that they are insurmountableNow, assuming there are no barriers to dual wave-functions beng carried on identically in the same universe (emphasis added), then time becomes the issue of observation.
I am lost again.This refutes Schrödinger's cat because both universes require that time separate the two oberservations, but time itself does not preclude the interaction of the parallel friend of Wigner, nor the parallel Wigner himself, yet, it must, if one assumes that parallel states are dependant on the instant of time, and decoherent of each other. If one agree's that this is absurd, then it is true that the Copenhagen interpretation is in fact true and states become such only when directly measured or observed.
I think we are little if any closer to identifying the correct interpretation of QMThoughts?
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