According to Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionarykal-el said:Generally, theologists agree that the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan himself, but was used by Satan. I would like some Christian responses to this, what do you think, and why?
"Satan
"adversary; accuser. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word
so rendered has the article "the adversary" (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7).
In the New Testament it is used as interchangeable with
Diabolos, or the devil, and is so used more than thirty times."
It was very much like Quetzalcoatl: A magnificently beautiful and highly intelligent feathered serpent. A dragon.9TH said:I want to know what the serpent was before God cursed it to crawl on its belly as punishment for temptig Eve. Was it a tree lizard? Did it have a british accent and sell insurance?
Right, Lucifer was not the serpent in the garden. The serpent in the garden was Gadrel: a Satan, but not *the* Satan.kal-el said:I did think before that Satan was the serpent, but I forgot key details in the Bible that made me form another decision. In the book of Job, it states that Satan was with the angels as they came in God's presence. After the fall of man, God scolded the sepent with life crawling on his belly. So, this contradicts the book of Job, hence Satan cannot be the sepent.
Jerry said:Right, Lucifer was not the serpent in the garden. The serpent in the garden was Gadrel: a Satan, but not *the* Satan.
Savvy?
See post #5.kal-el said:Amuse me Jerry, where did you get this from? I don't recall the Bible mentioning the serpnet's name?
kal-el said:I did think before that Satan was the serpent, but I forgot key details in the Bible that made me form another decision. In the book of Job, it states that Satan was with the angels as they came in God's presence. After the fall of man, God scolded the sepent with life crawling on his belly. So, this contradicts the book of Job, hence Satan cannot be the sepent.
Rev. said:Interesting.
Just curious, Kal-el, but why do you think they cannot both be true? If Lucifer at one point possesses a serpent, why can't he a thousand years later show up before God to tempt Job?
"Death" = separation from God, not a literal immediate physical death. Yes, they were separated from God, God thus did not lie and Gadrel did lie.talloulou said:What I want to know is why God lied and the serpant told the truth....Adam and Eve didn't die when they ate from the tree of knowledge.
Jerry said:See post #5.
What I think is interesting is the fact that no one thought anything was wrong with a talking serpent. I mean, if a snake started talking to me today, I’d flip and kill it before I had the chance to realize how much I could sell it for.kal-el said:Well Rev, that would conflict with God's ability to punish Satan. Because he handed out a stiff punishment which included that the serpent would no longer walk, if Satan did appear with angels in Job, than Satan would be able to overcome this God's punishment.
Jerry said:What I think is interesting is the fact that no one thought anything was wrong with a talking serpent. I mean, if a snake started talking to me today, I’d flip and kill it before I had the chance to realize how much I could sell it for.
I didn’t reference the Protestant Bible because, in so far as I know, it does not name names. You probably won’t find anything in there about Judas being the favored disciple either.kal-el said:I mean from the Protestant Bible, not apocryphic material.
Shrek was a good movie; neither the sun nor the earth "stood still", the earth's rotation took on the movement of an exaggerated precession which kept one given surface of the earth facing the sun; And what ells....oh Jonah, if God can create everything from nothing then I'm sure creating a condition for a whale to swallow a human and keep them alive for three days is nothing.kal-el said:Haha, well what about a talking donkey? A sun that breaks natural laws? Fish that consume people, then spit them out, still alive?
Jerry said:And what ells....oh Jonah, if God can create everything from nothing then I'm sure creating a condition for a whale to swallow a human and keep them alive for three days is nothing.
I don't see any reason why God needed to build the Ark Himself. Why then don't you blame God for not materializing houses and food for everyone? Didn't something happen in the Garden which set a rule for man to toile?kal-el said:And it would be nothing to build an ark the size of an ocean liner himself, instead of passing the buck on down to a primitive man who surely had no tools at that time. And you would think a perfect God could defeat iron chariots?:lol:
Jerry said:I don't see any reason why God needed to build the Ark Himself.
Why then don't you blame God for not materializing houses and food for everyone?
Didn't something happen in the Garden which set a rule for man to toile?
Justified.kal-el said:Cause he is responsible for drowning all of mankind (except 8 people),
"Primordial"? I don't accept the idea that Noah was a cave man nor that he had no tools. He already had boats and wealth, it's a small jump to think that he could focus his business recourses into making a giant ship. He had, what, like 100 years to do it.....and it would be rather stupid to expect a primordial man to slap together a boat the size of the titanic with no tools at all.
Man is supposed to do his own toiling.Why couldn't he just use magic to constitute it?
They knew God's law and they disobeyed it. That's all it takes.The garden is not a good example. The punishments handed out were totally unfair. First off, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil before they ate from the tree of knowledge.
And they did know the implications. They were told that they would die if they ate the fruit, and when they ate the fruit, they died. Their spirits were dead and they were separated from God. You don't have to have knowledge of how it works, for it to work.I'd say that someone can't exercise free will without having any knowledge about the implications.
They knew the effect of a cause and chose to perform the cause anyway.How can someone choose between good and evil, if they cannot tell them apart? Without knowledge, free will is only undeveloped.
Jerry said:Justified.
"Primordial"? I don't accept the idea that Noah was a cave man nor that he had no tools. He already had boats and wealth, it's a small jump to think that he could focus his business recourses into making a giant ship. He had, what, like 100 years to do it.
Man is supposed to do his own toiling.
They knew God's law and they disobeyed it. That's all it takes.
You don't have to have knowledge of how it works, for it to work.
They knew the effect of a cause and chose to perform the cause anyway.
Not murder. Killing.kal-el said:Justified???? That's the biggest act of quantitative murder that was ever perpetrated by God.
Not just "had evil in their hearts", but ONLY evil ALL the time and never anything but evil period.He drowned all because men had "evil" in their hearts....
Enter Jesus, stage left.....he is totally liable for it.
You don't know that.If Adam and Eve hadn't of "sinned", we would be naked and stupid.
...because we wouldn't need them.We wouldn't have telephones, televisions, cars, planes, dishwashers, dryers, clothes....
...You don't need a hospitable when your faith can heal any illness or injury you could acquire. Having the Almighty around to personally take care of anything you can't also helps.....no hospitals-
You don't know that.we'd all just die from a cold,
So what?...and I wouldn't be typing this, as we wouldn't have computers.
Hmm, my bad, Noah was a much greater ship builder than I gave him credit for. You’re right.What are you talking about? God gave Noah a weeks notice.
Neither guiding someone nor helping out is doing it for them.What? He supplied the Israelites with quail, he hardened hearts, he fought wars with the Jews, he aided Asa in the second biblical-style mass murder/carnage in decimating a humongous amount of Eithiopians. He guided the Jews through the desert for 40 years, if man's supposed to do his own toiling, he wouldn't have guided them.
God is the authority figure, the ultimate Father Archetype in carnet. It seems too be too simple for me to say that his authority was grossly obvious, especially in this day and age where we are conditioned to disregard authority and the Father Archetype; but that's the only way I know to say it.How were they to possibly know they were supposed to obey?
Without eating the fruit? How were they supposed to know not to, say, stick their finger into an electric socket, without sticking their finger into an electrical socket?How could they understand what death meant or what it resulted in?
They had free will and chose not between good and evil per se, but specifically rather to obey God or not. Now, that choice is a choice between good and evil, sure, but my point is that you do not need to understand in order to choose to comply. You must choose to trust (= faith in) that authority.No, but to be a fair and just punishment, you really must have knowledge. God didn't give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, so they couldn't make a decision not to or to eat from the tree.
Answered it.Again, how could they possibly have known what death was?
Answered it.How were they to know they must obey his command?
He issued the known effect for a predicted cause, yup.It seems God punished them for doing something which he knew they were gonna do.
If God commissions a rule, and then punishes him for breaching it, with full knowledge that he will in fact do this, then it's far from a rule, it is nothing but a perverted, sadistic punishment.
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