Satan in the garden? (1 Viewer)

[kal-el]

Generally, theologists agree that the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan himself, but was used by Satan. I would like some Christian responses to this, what do you think, and why?

 

[jfuh]

There is no spoon.

 

[cherokee]

There is no spoon.

:lamo :lamo :lamo

 

[9TH]

I want to know what the serpent was before God cursed it to crawl on its belly as punishment for temptig Eve. Was it a tree lizard? Did it have a british accent and sell insurance?

 

[Jerry]

Generally, theologists agree that the serpent in the garden wasn't Satan himself, but was used by Satan. I would like some Christian responses to this, what do you think, and why?

According to Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

"Satan
"adversary; accuser. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word
so rendered has the article "the adversary" (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7).
In the New Testament it is used as interchangeable with
Diabolos, or the devil, and is so used more than thirty times."

This holds true today. “Satan” has become synonymous with *the* Wicked Priest, but in fact is more or less a generic term for an adversary or an opponent, not usually the Dark One himself.

He who seduced Eve could accurately be called “Satan” and not be Lucifer.

The book of Enoch, 68:3-7;
“3 These are the chefs of their angels, and the names of their leaders of their hundreds, and the leaders of their fifties, and the leaders of their tens.
4 The name of the first is Yekun: He who it was that seduced all the sons of the holey angels; and counseling them to descend to the earth, led astray the offspring of men.
5 The name of the second is Kesabel, who pointed out evil council to the sons of the holey angels, and induced them to corrupt their bodies by generating mankind.
6 The name of the third Gadrel, he discovered every stroke of death to the children of men.
7 He seduced Eve, and discovered to the children of men the instruments of death, the coat of mail, the shield, and the sword for slaughter; every instrument of death to the children of men.”

(tangent alert) *skipping down*

Enoch 68:17-18;
“17 the name of the fifth is Kasyade: he discovered to the children of men every wicked stroke of spirits and demons:
18 The stroke of the embryo in the womb, to diminish it [abortion] the stroke of the spirit by the bite of the serpent [drug abuse and addiction]…….”

 

[Jerry]

I want to know what the serpent was before God cursed it to crawl on its belly as punishment for temptig Eve. Was it a tree lizard? Did it have a british accent and sell insurance?

It was very much like Quetzalcoatl: A magnificently beautiful and highly intelligent feathered serpent. A dragon.

 

[kal-el]

I did think before that Satan was the serpent, but I forgot key details in the Bible that made me form another decision. In the book of Job, it states that Satan was with the angels as they came in God's presence. After the fall of man, God scolded the sepent with life crawling on his belly. So, this contradicts the book of Job, hence Satan cannot be the sepent.

 

[Jerry]

I did think before that Satan was the serpent, but I forgot key details in the Bible that made me form another decision. In the book of Job, it states that Satan was with the angels as they came in God's presence. After the fall of man, God scolded the sepent with life crawling on his belly. So, this contradicts the book of Job, hence Satan cannot be the sepent.

Right, Lucifer was not the serpent in the garden. The serpent in the garden was Gadrel: a Satan, but not *the* Satan.

Savvy?

 

[kal-el]

Right, Lucifer was not the serpent in the garden. The serpent in the garden was Gadrel: a Satan, but not *the* Satan.

Savvy?

Amuse me Jerry, where did you get this from? I don't recall the Bible mentioning the serpnet's name?

 

[Jerry]

Amuse me Jerry, where did you get this from? I don't recall the Bible mentioning the serpnet's name?

See post #5.

 

[Rev.]

I did think before that Satan was the serpent, but I forgot key details in the Bible that made me form another decision. In the book of Job, it states that Satan was with the angels as they came in God's presence. After the fall of man, God scolded the sepent with life crawling on his belly. So, this contradicts the book of Job, hence Satan cannot be the sepent.

Interesting.

Just curious, Kal-el, but why do you think they cannot both be true? If Lucifer at one point possesses a serpent, why can't he a thousand years later show up before God to tempt Job?

 

[talloulou]

What I want to know is why God lied and the serpant told the truth....Adam and Eve didn't die when they ate from the tree of knowledge.

 

[kal-el]

Interesting.

Just curious, Kal-el, but why do you think they cannot both be true? If Lucifer at one point possesses a serpent, why can't he a thousand years later show up before God to tempt Job?

Well Rev, that would conflict with God's ability to punish Satan. Because he handed out a stiff punishment which included that the serpent would no longer walk, if Satan did appear with angels in Job, than Satan would be able to overcome this God's punishment.

 

[Jerry]

What I want to know is why God lied and the serpant told the truth....Adam and Eve didn't die when they ate from the tree of knowledge.

"Death" = separation from God, not a literal immediate physical death. Yes, they were separated from God, God thus did not lie and Gadrel did lie.

 

[kal-el]

See post #5.

I mean from the Protestant Bible, not apocryphic material.

 

[Jerry]

Well Rev, that would conflict with God's ability to punish Satan. Because he handed out a stiff punishment which included that the serpent would no longer walk, if Satan did appear with angels in Job, than Satan would be able to overcome this God's punishment.

What I think is interesting is the fact that no one thought anything was wrong with a talking serpent. I mean, if a snake started talking to me today, I’d flip and kill it before I had the chance to realize how much I could sell it for.

 

[kal-el]

What I think is interesting is the fact that no one thought anything was wrong with a talking serpent. I mean, if a snake started talking to me today, I’d flip and kill it before I had the chance to realize how much I could sell it for.

Haha, well what about a talking donkey? A sun that breaks natural laws? Fish that consume people, then spit them out, still alive?

 

[Jerry]

I mean from the Protestant Bible, not apocryphic material.

I didn’t reference the Protestant Bible because, in so far as I know, it does not name names. You probably won’t find anything in there about Judas being the favored disciple either.

You wanted to know why some Christians believe that the serpent in the garden wasn’t Lucifer himself. #5 is this Christian’s reason and why.

 

[Jerry]

Haha, well what about a talking donkey? A sun that breaks natural laws? Fish that consume people, then spit them out, still alive?

Shrek was a good movie; neither the sun nor the earth "stood still", the earth's rotation took on the movement of an exaggerated precession which kept one given surface of the earth facing the sun; And what ells....oh Jonah, if God can create everything from nothing then I'm sure creating a condition for a whale to swallow a human and keep them alive for three days is nothing.

 

[kal-el]

And what ells....oh Jonah, if God can create everything from nothing then I'm sure creating a condition for a whale to swallow a human and keep them alive for three days is nothing.

And it would be nothing to build an ark the size of an ocean liner himself, instead of passing the buck on down to a primitive man who surely had no tools at that time. And you would think a perfect God could defeat iron chariots?:lol:

 

[Jerry]

And it would be nothing to build an ark the size of an ocean liner himself, instead of passing the buck on down to a primitive man who surely had no tools at that time. And you would think a perfect God could defeat iron chariots?:lol:

I don't see any reason why God needed to build the Ark Himself. Why then don't you blame God for not materializing houses and food for everyone? Didn't something happen in the Garden which set a rule for man to toile?

 

[kal-el]

I don't see any reason why God needed to build the Ark Himself.

Cause he is responsible for drowning all of mankind (except 8 people), and it would be rather stupid to expect a primordial man to slap together a boat the size of the titanic with no tools at all. Why couldn't he just use magic to consitute it?

Why then don't you blame God for not materializing houses and food for everyone?

Huh?

Didn't something happen in the Garden which set a rule for man to toile?

The garden is not a good example. The punishments handed out were totally unfair. First off, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil before they ate from the tree of knowledge. I'd say that someone can't exersize free will without having any knowledge about the implications. How can someone choose between good and evil, if they cannot tell them apart? Without knowledge, free will is only undeveloped.

 

[Jerry]

Cause he is responsible for drowning all of mankind (except 8 people),

Justified.

....and it would be rather stupid to expect a primordial man to slap together a boat the size of the titanic with no tools at all.

"Primordial"? I don't accept the idea that Noah was a cave man nor that he had no tools. He already had boats and wealth, it's a small jump to think that he could focus his business recourses into making a giant ship. He had, what, like 100 years to do it.

Why couldn't he just use magic to constitute it?

Man is supposed to do his own toiling.

The garden is not a good example. The punishments handed out were totally unfair. First off, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil before they ate from the tree of knowledge.

They knew God's law and they disobeyed it. That's all it takes.

I'd say that someone can't exercise free will without having any knowledge about the implications.

And they did know the implications. They were told that they would die if they ate the fruit, and when they ate the fruit, they died. Their spirits were dead and they were separated from God. You don't have to have knowledge of how it works, for it to work.

How can someone choose between good and evil, if they cannot tell them apart? Without knowledge, free will is only undeveloped.

They knew the effect of a cause and chose to perform the cause anyway.

 

[kal-el]

Justified.

Justified???? That's the biggest act of quantitative murder that was ever perpetrated by God. He drowned all because men had "evil" in their hearts, he is totally liable for it. If Adam and Eve hadn't of "sinned", we would be naked and stupid. We wouldn't have telephones, televisions, cars, planes, diswashers, dryers, clothes, no hospitals-we'd all just die from a cold, and I wouldn't be typing this, as we wouldn't have computers.

"Primordial"? I don't accept the idea that Noah was a cave man nor that he had no tools. He already had boats and wealth, it's a small jump to think that he could focus his business recourses into making a giant ship. He had, what, like 100 years to do it.

What are you talking about? God gave Noah a weeks notice. With all its dimesions (450 ft lenght,75f t wide, and 45 ft high) it is unfeasible for modern man to slap it together in 1 week. Please provide scriptural evidence to support the idea that Noah had an abundancy of wealth (before the flood), and I would very much like to see where you came up with Noah had 100 years to fasten the ark together.

Man is supposed to do his own toiling.

What? He supplied the Israelites with quail, he hardened hearts, he fought wars with the Jews, he aided Asa in the second biblical-style mass murder/carnage in decimating a humongous amount of Eithiopians. He guided the Jews through the desert for 40 years, if man's supposed to do his own toiling, he wouldn't have guided them.

They knew God's law and they disobeyed it. That's all it takes.

How were they to possibly know they were supposed to obey? How could they understand what death meant or what it resulted in?

You don't have to have knowledge of how it works, for it to work.

No, but to be a fair and just punishment, you really must have knowledge. God didn't give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, so they couldn't make a decision not to or to eat from the tree.

They knew the effect of a cause and chose to perform the cause anyway.

Again, how could they possibly have known what death was? How were they to know they must obey his command? It seems God punished them for doing something which he knew they were gonna do. If God commisions a rule, and then punishes him for breaching it, with full knowledge that he will in fact do this, then it's far from a rule, it is nothing but a perverted, sadistic punishment.

 

[Jerry]

Justified???? That's the biggest act of quantitative murder that was ever perpetrated by God.

Not murder. Killing.

He drowned all because men had "evil" in their hearts....

Not just "had evil in their hearts", but ONLY evil ALL the time and never anything but evil period.
Genesis 6:5;
"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."

he is totally liable for it.

Enter Jesus, stage left.....

If Adam and Eve hadn't of "sinned", we would be naked and stupid.

You don't know that.

Even if that were true, so what? Living a peaceful and fulfilling life of 900+ years doesn't sound so bad.

No global warming, no nuclear weapons, no taxes, no politicians, no wars, no suicide bombers, no nazis, no acid rain, no Enron, no Halliburton, no starving children, no rape, no 3rd. world war-lords, no drug addictions, no suicide, no torture prisons, no cubicals, no greed, no murder, no adultery……..not a bad place to live, in my opinion. Take your tec., I’ll have peace, thank you.

We wouldn't have telephones, televisions, cars, planes, dishwashers, dryers, clothes....

...because we wouldn't need them.

....no hospitals-

...You don't need a hospitable when your faith can heal any illness or injury you could acquire. Having the Almighty around to personally take care of anything you can't also helps.

we'd all just die from a cold,

You don't know that.

The garden wasn't cold anyway. It was a tropical/temperate climate. Iraq, remember? (or somewhere in that imediat aria......)

...and I wouldn't be typing this, as we wouldn't have computers.

So what?
Perhaps if we had stayed with God we wouldn't feel compelled to let a machine do our thinking for us.

We wouldn't need those things. Not at all.

What are you talking about? God gave Noah a weeks notice.

Hmm, my bad, Noah was a much greater ship builder than I gave him credit for. You’re right.

As to his wealth, that comes from old church study groups, shows like Digging for the Truth, Discovery channel's Noah's Ark: The True Story, interviews with folks like Porcher Taylor and Richard Rives,
and similar.

Noah wasn't the richest man in the world, he was no king, but neither was he the cave man that you portray him as.

I'll look into it some more and get you more links, if you wish.

Remember, you are not speaking with someone who confines his thoughts on biblical history to the bible.

What? He supplied the Israelites with quail, he hardened hearts, he fought wars with the Jews, he aided Asa in the second biblical-style mass murder/carnage in decimating a humongous amount of Eithiopians. He guided the Jews through the desert for 40 years, if man's supposed to do his own toiling, he wouldn't have guided them.

Neither guiding someone nor helping out is doing it for them.

How were they to possibly know they were supposed to obey?

God is the authority figure, the ultimate Father Archetype in carnet. It seems too be too simple for me to say that his authority was grossly obvious, especially in this day and age where we are conditioned to disregard authority and the Father Archetype; but that's the only way I know to say it.

How could they understand what death meant or what it resulted in?

Without eating the fruit? How were they supposed to know not to, say, stick their finger into an electric socket, without sticking their finger into an electrical socket?

The only explanation my 5 and 2 year olds need is “big ouch, no touch”. They don’t require me to first teach them all about electricity in order to feel compelled to trust me and comply with my authority.

I know of no way for Adam and Eve to understand. But understanding is irrelevant to compliance with authority. For example, a child does not first need to know all about bacteria and illness before complying with her parent's authority and thus take a shower. All her parent need answer a "why" question with is "because you need to be clean", and that is good enough.

God gave Adam and Eve the equivalent of a "because you need to be clean" answer with "you will surly die", and that was good enough.

No, but to be a fair and just punishment, you really must have knowledge. God didn't give Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, so they couldn't make a decision not to or to eat from the tree.

They had free will and chose not between good and evil per se, but specifically rather to obey God or not. Now, that choice is a choice between good and evil, sure, but my point is that you do not need to understand in order to choose to comply. You must choose to trust (= faith in) that authority.

If they had blindly trusted God then we wouldn't be in this mess.

Again, how could they possibly have known what death was?

Answered it.

How were they to know they must obey his command?

Answered it.

It seems God punished them for doing something which he knew they were gonna do.

He issued the known effect for a predicted cause, yup.

If God commissions a rule, and then punishes him for breaching it, with full knowledge that he will in fact do this, then it's far from a rule, it is nothing but a perverted, sadistic punishment.

The rule was just so I can't agree.