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Romney reveals he pays about 15% in taxes(edited)

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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

OpportunityCost said:
I was referring to dividends tax rates. Go back and read the post in its entirety.
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Oh ok. I'm still not sure how you think that would address Buffett's concern though. Dividends are a relatively small part of a super rich investor's income. For example, in Romney's case dividends accounted for about 10% of his income. It's regular capital gains- trading stocks mostly- that are the big ticket item.

Also, retirees have tons of tax protection already. 401ks, IRAs, etc.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

By all means...show me were I have EVER indicated that. I have ALWAYS said...gut the fed...return social spending where it belongs...local and state. Military cuts. massive federal government cuts. AND raise taxes on EVERYONE to pay down the debt. You are either selectively blind or a liar. I have never taken any other position. What I HAVE consistently opposed is the idiotic blame the rich ramblings. Taxing the rich isnt going to make people that have failed in their own little lives suddenly find success. The rich WILL need to bear a larger share of the burden, but then, EVERYONE should. When 47% of the country pay nothing in federal taxes and still drain the nations resources, it takes some real delusion and a far amount of shutzpah to blame everyone ELSE for being the root of all evil.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

VanceMack said:
Military cuts. massive federal government cuts. AND raise taxes
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So if you agree with what I am proposing and support the proposals introduced by the Democrats over and over during the past 6 months, what are we arguing about?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Yes, Turtle, that is called democracy. The majority makes the rules.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Centinel said:
Yes, Turtle, that is called democracy. The majority makes the rules.
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waits for Turtle to state that the US is a Republic not a Democracy...

Plus the majority does not make the rules in the US... the side with most money and power makes the rules.. usually the business sector.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


That is absurd and nobody is suggesting that. Absurdity is not debate.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


While we would probably disagree on which programs to target, I and other progressives here have endorsed cutting hundreds of billions of dollars from the spending on behalf of the federal government.

As to the Department of Education, I am a firm believer that the best place to spend dollars for education is in the classroom. Since the Dept of Ed actually no children, that would be a place to make reasonable cuts. So we agree on something there.

What we need is a two pronged approach where both sides of the ledger are dealt with.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Centinel said:
Yes, Turtle, that is called democracy. The majority makes the rules.
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True, it is. However, democracy can only be successful with an educated electorate but since any citizen over 18 can vote, the dumbing down of its electorate comes into play. Opportunist and populists can appeal to a wide swath of the ignorant with simple and thus appealing slogans and labels like the 99%. Ultimately, the cost of such movements will be borne by society as a whole. Anyone who thinks that the less successful will profit in the long run from this kind of populism is at the very least seriously short-sighted.

Fortunately, even those espousing income redistribution are cognizant of this fact and are most likely manipulating the ignorant to hold on to power. They are far too concerned with their legacy to actually put their rhetoric to practice. Not even Obama is actually that stupid. My only real concern is that they will lose control over a movement they cynically conceived and fostered.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


So your concerns about an educated electorate would then translate into significant increases for public education so that can be accomplished?
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


I have a question about this policy of cutting the Department of Education.

Who would insure that schools and states provide education to all and not discriminate based on race and religion?
Who would insure that schools and states provide actual education and not religious based fantasy learning?
Who would make the education standards?
Who would insure some sort of minimum standard of education that all have to live up too?
By education standards I mean uniform tests, minimum reading standards, and so on.

You can not have a country where the quality of education is based on where you were born. While I know that this happens regardless, I am the firm believer that it is the role of a government entity to make sure that this factor is as minimal as possible. Right now in most countries, you have schooling systems based on set of rules that applies to all school districts. Sure some are bad, some are good. Some are rich, some are poor, but the basic principles are the same. Now by not having the central control system of an Education department, you risk having local governments dictating wildly different priorities and that would skew education in a country and society it self.

For example, you could have one local government that is very religious make all schools small religious schools basing all their teachings on religious text. When these children leave the area, they would be seriously handicapped in the real world. We have seen this with some graduates from religious based universities in the US.

Or a local government that has certain political views, that teaches the children these views by indoctrination. Like all lefties are bad or homos are bad and such things.

Now I am not saying the current Department of Education in the US is good or bad, or worth its costs, but I am saying that something to make sure that there is a minimum education standard in the US is needed and no I do not trust the States themselves to do a good job... after all it was the states that fought against segregation and slavery...
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


You raise some excellent questions. And I join you in wanting those sort of things protected. However, I do think that can be accomplished with a reduction in the overall budget of the D of Ed. I taught for 33 years and I honestly cannot tell you anything they did for the kids I taught.

There is a tremendous duplication or even triplication (is that a word?) of effort and data collecting.

In the end, I would favor a national system like the Japanese have. That would insure all that you and I want and the duplication at the local level would be eliminated. The conservative goal of cutting costs would thus be achieved. The noble goals you listed would also be achieved.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


The IRS calls state "estate" taxes Death taxes. and you lefties never take those into account in averaging out what people play in state taxes or federal taxes. But even using numbers that are dubious as best, the rich are paying a higher percentage of taxes than the middle class.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
That is absurd and nobody is suggesting that. Absurdity is not debate.
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You have argued that the rich have only what the masses will decide they will have
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


So we have to slog through this field yet again? I would hope we can all be spared.

Bakers call a certain dessert a Boston Cream Pie. It is NOT a pie. It is a cake. The name anyone gives it is not necessarily descriptive nor accurate.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

haymarket said:
So we have to slog through this field yet again? I would hope we can all be spared.

Bakers call a certain dessert a Boston Cream Pie. It is NOT a pie. It is a cake. The name anyone gives it is not necessarily descriptive nor accurate.
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The IRS calls state "estate" taxes death taxes. End of story
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
You have argued that the rich have only what the masses will decide they will have
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Actually, I explained to you the process of passing laws in the USA and the role the people play in the selection of their duly elected representatives and in making their wishes known to them. If the wealthy are so afraid of themasses doing what you fear they could do, that is all the more reason to strive for tax justice now with modest tax raises.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

TurtleDude said:
The IRS calls state "estate" taxes death taxes. End of story
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Turtle, you and I both know that there is no tax on death. Millions of people die every year and there is no tax paid in association with their death. Well over 95% of people die each year in the USA and there is no tax associated with that death. If somebody very wealthy died tomorrow and all their possessions and wealthy were burned along with them in a great Viking like pyre, they and their wealth would go out in ablaze of glory and even they would have no tax associated with the death.

As you well know, the tax is on the passing of wealth from one individual to a different individual because they are now acquiring income or property that could be converted into income.

from the IRS no less

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98968,00.html

Estate Tax
The estate tax is a tax on your right to transfer property at your death. It consists of an accounting of everything you own or have certain interests in at the date of death.
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The IRS - the people you invoked - state quite clearly that the tax is on the right to transfer property to others at death. It is not DEATH that is being taxed.

This issue has lied dead for a few months and I had hoped it could continue to do so.

Do Misters Luntz and Ferris need to come out to play again?
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


Look Haymarket-there is nothing about government that you can tell me that I don't already know. Just because I object to the process that has led to our massive deficits and a ton of ignorant people voting, does not mean you have the ability or the need to "Explain" something to me. You are an advocate for the government taking more from the rich and I am an advocate of a less parasitic government and changing the system that encourages politicians to pander to envy and the lowest common denominator

later
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


we understand you want to make a tax you support sound less sinister but even the IRS calls state taxes on the wealth of an owner who has died "death taxes". Your almost frantic defense of both this abomination and its more sanitized name is interesting in its fervor
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Adam, Im still waiting to hear what you propose for a tax rates or tax plan. You said, "you first" then disappeared from the thread.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


Well most government departments can described in this way. Government works behind the scenes and does many things, many things we take for granted and dont associate with government.

There is a tremendous duplication or even triplication (is that a word?) of effort and data collecting.
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Yes it is a word, and yes it is a problem in any society. Spain for example is the KING of duplication and could save billions if they got rid of it.

In the end, I would favor a national system like the Japanese have.
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Well that system has not taught the children that the Imperial Japanese Government were butchers.. just saying. But what is the Japanese system exactly?

That would insure all that you and I want and the duplication at the local level would be eliminated. The conservative goal of cutting costs would thus be achieved. The noble goals you listed would also be achieved.
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So it is not the department it self, but the many layers created because of the way the US was designed... Fine take the states and local governments totally out of the loop, problem solved.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

teamosil said:
Yeah, it's all state and local taxes of all types according to the source. Except there is no such thing as a "death tax"... Perhaps you mean "estate tax"?
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I won't get into the death tax in detail here because we already have plenty to discuss Thank you for replying, I was really too tired to look through.


If child labor is a concern, that is easily stopped on a federal level without getting rid of competition between states. Simply state that it has to do with a child's rights and then it becomes federal government concern.

The race to the bottom is awesome! The single largest mitigating factor? Efficient use of resources! Find a way to spend what you have to get get the most skilled work force (I use skilled instead of educated on purpose ), provide a reasonable tax rate (it can even be progressive, but not crazy), have decent security, quality services, etc and the businesses will flock to you.

Government should always have competition! Competition is what makes the free market so great. My entire business model revolves around charging more and giving better service. Guess what! It works! I just have to be that much better than the competition.


The problem here is that we are getting stuck on the one example. I could go into more about the orange grower and such, but we aren't even talking about the skilled labor areas and such.

I'll happily admit there is interstate concern. That's why there is a federal government, but I won't pretend each state isn't it's own economy and government, as well.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Under the US constitution, such things as education, health, and welfare fall under the general term "police powers" and are state powers, not federal . All the questions you asked, would be answered by the people of the state in question, not people in other states.
 
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Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays


This is interesting that you invoke the IRS - at least pretend to - while I gave you a link to the official IRS site AND the specific language from the same IRS which clearly states that the tax is an estate tax upon the transfer or property.

again from the official IRS site previously linked

Estate Tax
The estate tax is a tax on your right to transfer property at your death. It consists of an accounting of everything you own or have certain interests in at the date of death.
Click to expand...

This crusade of yours is simply part of a desire for you to enjoy a low tax rate and keep money for yourself. It has nothing to do with larger issues of economics or national policy. That is of course your right.
 
Re: Romney's tax rate is only half as high as the middle class pays

Pete
you asked about the Japanese system

Education in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

basically, it is a national system administered by a central power in Tokyo. Education is the same all over the nation. Students learn from the same curriculum and the same books and take the same tests regardless of where they live. The standardized tests that the Japanese student excels at, are perfectly dovetailed into the curriculum, giving them a significant advantage over students in localized systems with no national curriculum.
 
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