Yeah but back then nobody was willing to look at religion. And throughout the 90s such a thing was absolutely politically incorrect and even forbidden in intel reports (I've read their obvious avoidances). We like to think that religious crisis is only a Christian Middle Age thing. We subscribe to the recent history phenomena, which is that enemies only come from national guidons and uniformed mannerisms. We like to pretend that the white Western inspired self-righteous Geneva Convention laws must pertain to the entire world even though they had nothing to do to with its evolution. And whenthey don't..."how dare they."
We like to pretend that all issues have simple answers and when they do not, we behave as if they will solve themselves. None in Washington personify this ignorance more than Rumsfeld's "No-Plan" for Iraq in 2003 where democracy was supposed to spring forth on its own once Baghdad fell (he's the same idiot that was afraid of Iraq's tribal instability without Hussein in 1991).
This is nothing short of being factually incorrect. The British Empire has occupied far more vast territory than any other empire in history.
How about we talk about the Western Betrayal? How millions of people were slaughtered because America and the West did not fulfill their agreements? Queue the apoligia in 3... 2.... 1...
Oh please. How many wars were fought over Protestants vs Catholics? War of the Spanish Succession. War of the Quadruple Alliance. How many wars did the Roman Empire instigate? Well over two dozen large scale wars (20,000+).Oh, we were discussing Muslim armies versus Christian armies. Not Muslim armies versus British armies. Britsh expansion was not under the Cross simply because Christians were within. The days of Christian Armies are long gone. But the Cresent marches on.
You were acting as if international dislike for America/the West was completely unwarranted. You were trying to use history as a reason why they should not be disliked. I'm sorry if more relevant history completely contradicted what you were going for, but do not blame me for your ignorance of it.Which has what to do with a Christian Army? How about we talk about Giraffe feeding habits too?
Oh please. How many wars were fought over Protestants vs Catholics? War of the Spanish Succession. War of the Quadruple Alliance. How many wars did the Roman Empire instigate? Well over two dozen large scale wars (20,000+).
And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).
You were acting as if international dislike for America/the West was completely unwarranted. You were trying to use history as a reason why they should not be disliked. I'm sorry if more relevant history completely contradicted what you were going for, but do not blame me for your ignorance of it.
You're trying to tape hair to a dog's butt, now.
:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).
What do you think of what happened and what do you think of my claim that it met its objective and has been significant in spreading the meme of freedom, democracy and liberty across the Middle East?
Oh please. How many wars were fought over Protestants vs Catholics? War of the Spanish Succession. War of the Quadruple Alliance. How many wars did the Roman Empire instigate? Well over two dozen large scale wars (20,000+).
And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).
You were acting as if international dislike for America/the West was completely unwarranted. You were trying to use history as a reason why they should not be disliked. I'm sorry if more relevant history completely contradicted what you were going for, but do not blame me for your ignorance of it.
:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:
Iraq was handled wrong. By using WMD to kick in the door, we allowed "greater" Europe their way to escape their responsibility. There was always two goals. One, was to finally end the decrepit UN containment mission we were trying to get out of since President Clinton and of which Osama Bin Laden used to justify 9/11. And two, ignite change in an Arab region that has been starving for a success.
But because Rumsfeld denied the military their plan, he facilitated far more blood and treasure than was necessary. He knew that in order to sell the invasion, he had to deny the military's details of the effort and portray the war as cheap and without true effort. That democracy would simply spring up once our troops reached Baghdad. After selling the invasion, he commenced to tie the hands of the professionals who are trained to fight. His non-experienced coven of civilian misfits commenced to tell 30 years soldiers and Marines how to fight. He put his dimwit theory on warfare to the test and called it "Shock and Awe." He envisioned the Gulf War scenario as the future of warfare. He believed that technology would win the wars as the bare minimum of men skipped in and scooped up the surrendering masses. However, the Gulf War was a wargamers wet dream. It is not the future and the nature of warfare never changes.
With the bare minimum of troops, U.S. Marines fought the entire way to Baghdad. Once in Baghdad, we watched it burn all around us as looters commenced to have a field day. With no further orders out of the White House, Marines and soldiers simply waited. And waited. And waited. When the Marines left Iraq, the Army unts left behind were too little to occupy properly and Iraq devolved into tribal crisis. When the Marines came back later that fall (2003), the Anbar Province was a wreck. For years, pundits and ignorant critics (plenty of politicians) used every IED as proof of failure and any sense of violence between the tribes meant "Civil War." They all maintained their ignorance and claimed that WMD was the reason and that we should "bring our troops home." Well, soldiers and Marines stuck it out and weathered Rumsfeld's bungling until he was fired. There is no coincidence that Iraq began to turn around once General Patreaus was given the power to do his job and a cultural expert named Vali Nasr was consulted.
Along the way, Arabs voted on the laws that would govern them for the first time history. They freely elected officials not once, but twice. And the last time it was done under the complete security of Iraqi forces alone where there was little violence. ALL the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" travel to Iraq to slaughter their fellow Muslim. If 9/11 wasn't enough, Al-Queda proved how little respect they have for even Muslim life. The same critics who "wanted the troop home" and needed every IED explosion to validate their lack of vision now wish to pretend that the entire region sees everything that is going on in the world...except in Iraq. That somehow, Iraq has a big black shield that they can't peer into.
But the truth is that the Middle East has been under going huge social changes since the first televised "purple finger" event in Iraq. Tunisia didn't just come out of no where. And Egypt didn't happen simply because of Tunisia.
....and today the pundit looks at Afghanistan and chants "bring them home." Fools.
So, please answer me this one question, MSgt. What is your opinion about Bremer's dismantling of the Iraqi Army? I think it was absolutely necessary to remove the power structure of the Baathists/Sunnis, and to build an NCO centric force for the new Iraq, and so that the majority Shia could run the country without the possibility of Military Coup.
Fair enough. As MSgt pointed out, the Cold War caused us to make short-term decisions and abandon our principles. However, IMHO, the fall of Communism alone did not offer the prospect of democracy. The public evolution of the invasion and adoption of democracy by Iraq, was the starter motor for democracy in the ME. It is important that though invaded, this was done by the Iraqis, with our assistance, but it was the Iraqis who constructed the constitution, ratified it by popular vote, elected their permanent government, and exercised their freedom of speech and assembly, something not allowed in other parts of the ME. Iraq gave the ME the democracy option and inspiration. "Why not here" they ask?
The big argument I have is that we had enough troops, only the strategy of their deployment was wrong. With only a surge of 50,000 but most importantly a posture change to put everyone inside the population to protect them, broke the civil war. This is my naive observation. It would have been better to stop the looting and initial chaos with more, but the insurgency really didn't really get started for at least 6 months to a year. That's a long time to keep those kinds of numbers deployed and rotated. We really did fight two separate wars there, a crushing 5 week conventional war and a 4 year insurgency. Wrong strategy for the "non-existent" insurgency. Sigh.
So, please answer me this one question, MSgt. What is your opinion about Bremer's dismantling of the Iraqi Army? I think it was absolutely necessary to remove the power structure of the Baathists/Sunnis, and to build an NCO centric force for the new Iraq, and so that the majority Shia could run the country without the possibility of Military Coup.
This line of thinking is rather biased.
No invasion of Iraq needed.
If you will allow me a follow up question to tie this back into Egypt, do you think there needs to be a transformation of the Egyptian military in any respects for a unencumbered democracy to take shape in Egypt? I suspect there are many in positions of privilege and the news that the Egyptian military is so intertwined in many aspects of the economy is concerning.
And you're trying to deflect my argument. Typical of someone who has no capabalities of posting an intellectually honest response.
:shock::shock::shock::shock:
Here's the Neocon perspective on this. Read carefully William Kristal's words and consider, apdst.
This line of thinking is rather biased.
It assumes Arabs are stupid, poorly informed and incabable of critical thinking
It also ignores much of the history of the region over the last 50 years. Democracy in the ME has been denied arabs through dictators who for the last 30 years have been directly supported by the US in most cases. Roughly 3 arabic countries have dictators who do not receive support from the US as a means to remain in power. Algeria in the 90's had a general election in which an islamist party won the majority of seats, after which the military took power and with assistance of the US has brutally repressed the Algerian people.
I am certain that Egypt could have had a democratic revolution in the 90s or in the 2000s without the invasion of Iraq. Removals of US assistance in supporting the Mubarak regime, and supporting democratic movements within Egypt would have accomplished the same goal years ago. No invasion of Iraq needed.
Overall the US has done more to repress democracy in the ME (and muslim countries in general) then it has to promote it. Iraq has nothing to due with it, and the only reason Mubarak is gone now in Egypt is because the US government finally decided it was time for him to go. Had the Obama admin thrown its support behind Mubarak as all US governments have since the 80s' this democratic movement would have been crushed through brutal oppression. Quite a few other Arabic countries could have the same situation occur if the US decided not to support the regime. Others would not fall with or without US support (Algeria for one, its resources will allow operation of the governemn without US assistance).
In other words democracy could have occured in the ME without the bloodshed of Iraq, had the US stopped supporting the un democratic countries of the region.
The United States hasn't given any support to the Ahatollas in Iran.
It's rarther true and without the anti-American theme that too often accompanies the pundit's denials and rejections.
Unfortunately, the social history throughout the region tells a different story since Iraqis began to vote. None of these things were going to happen had the status quo in the heartland of Sunni Arab Islam remained the same.
The played out notion that American support has denied democracy in the Middle East is foolish. Why is it that this notion only seems to be used in regards to the Middle East? Was it America that installed the House of Saud? Or America that installed the Nasser dynasty? We merely conducted business with the governments they produced. We no more supported the absence of democracy in the Middle East than we do the absence of it in China. Our support hasn't changed towards Egypt's government. We supported it in the 90s and we supported it the day the protestors took to the streets. Yet....they didn't take to the streets in the 90s, did they? What's different? And if they easily ridded themselves of Mubarak in 18 days of generally peaceful protest, what prevented this in the 90s? Like I stated, the notion that Muslims have been under the oppressive prescription of American government is foolish and simple. If they were, a mere 18 days of peaceful protest would not have accounted for much. We have always been the scapegoat and people outside the Middle East have been too eager to allow them their excuses.
But let's pretend that you can go ahead and lay all guilt upon America's door step while ignoring Arab culture as the underlying current. Are we allowed to also take credit for democracy in Europe? After all, if America is to assume all the nastiness that governments do unto their own, surely this means that we can take positive credit too. Or does this game work that way?
What part of "In most Cases" do you not understand?
CAIRO - Egypt's military chiefs on Saturday sought to restore calm and stability to a country still exhilarated by the first fruits of its revolution, but the armed forces signaled there were limits to how much change they would tolerate, ignoring demonstrators' demands to dismantle the institutional legacies of former president Hosni Mubarak.
In its fourth public statement in three days, the Supreme Military Council repeated its promise to oversee a transition to a "democratic and free" Egypt run by civilians. For the time being, however, the generals said they would keep the old order in place, allowing Mubarak's government to stay on in a caretaker role. They also said Egypt would honor its international treaties, including its peace accord with Israel.
Military pledges to oversee peaceful transition as protesters remain in Tahrir
Do you not think that if the US government had thrown its support behind Mubarak, ensuring continued support even if the protestors were put down through high levels of violence (and death) that the Mubarak regime would not have tried this. The greatest threat to this democratic movement in Egypt would have been the US government providing ongoing support to Mubarak, rather then the stated removal of it. Is/was the US responsible for democracy never occuring in the ME, certainly not. But it is a major supporter currently of the dictatorship in the region. Some of which would survive with or without US support, others would collapse without it (Mubarak is one, Jordan another).
As for why it occurred now, it was in no way due to Iraq. But was inspired by events in Tunisia and from all things a street vendor setting himself on fire. In the 90s economic conditions and state programs were enough to placate the general population. Now that inflation is eating away at the economic conditions within a large number of ME countries, the governments do not have the funds to continue to placate the population. Requiring either even more brutal methods of repression or opening up the socio-political sphere to all members of society as a means to satisfy the public at large. In this case the Mubarak regime had the choice between brutal repression or opening up. For brutal repression, the Mubarak government would have sought US governmernt acceptance of it, (requiring US acceptance as Egypt is rather dependant on tourism and trade with the West) as it was not forthcoming, it was not left with much in the way of options other then potentially waiting out the protestors. The protestors won in this case because the US decided not to support the dictator.
The idea that the US is a promoter of democracy is a false one. Internationally it is a promoter of its self interests. Outside of western/northern europe and Japan. Its self interest has tended to mean it has been a supporter of dictatorships. It has helped to overthrown more democratic regimes then it has actively helped to created. Just look at the current case in Egypt. How many upper level officials were against supporting the protestors against Mubarak because US strategic interests were potentially at risk. In the run up to the Iraq war, Wolfowitz was reported to have said he was dissappointed the Turkish military didnt "change" the position of the government of Turkey regarding allowing the US use turkish territory to invade Iraq. Certainly not a way to support democracy in a country that has had more then a few military coups.
another from of dictatorshipIsn't Jordan a monarchy?
Where did the Tunisians get the idea?
Creating/promoting peaceful, free democratic governments is everyone's best interest.
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